God says "You cannot see my face"

[NewCreation435]

In Exodus 33:17-21 it says this
17 And the Lord said to Moses, “I will do the very thing you have asked, because I am pleased with you and I know you by name.”

18 Then Moses said, “Now show me your glory.”

19 And the Lord said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”

21 Then the Lord said, “There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock. 22 When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23 Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen.”

This is said after verse 11 says that "The Lord used to speak to MOses face to face, just as a man speaks to his friend." However, then verse 23 the Lord says that his face must not be seen. So, the phrase "face to face" in verse 11 must mean a personal conversation but not to be taken literally. Then i am wondering what it means that God's glory passes by and that Moses saw God's back. I am assuming that God didn't allow him to see his face because the glory of seeing that would destroy moses since he was still in a human body at that point and still had a sin nature.

 

[atpollard]

Commentary of David Guzik
(Exo 33:21-23) How God will protect Moses when God passes before Moses.

And the Lord said, “Here is a place by Me, and you shall stand on the rock. So it shall be, while My glory passes by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock, and will cover you with My hand while I pass by. Then I will take away My hand, and you shall see My back; but My face shall not be seen.”

a. Here is a place by Me, and you shall stand on the rock: God was about to reveal Himself to Moses in a unique way. God prepared the event carefully, giving Moses a specific place to stand.

i. Later, Elijah met God in what may have been the same place (1 Kings 19:8-18).​

b. While My glory passes by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock: God’s glory could not remain in front of Moses, it had to pass by him. Even with that, Moses had to be protected by thehand of God and the cleft of the rock when the glory of God passed before him.

i. This is a vivid and endearing image: protected both by the hand of God and hidden away in the rock of refuge He provides. The shelter in the cleft of the rock gave the image for Augustus Toplady in his famous hymn Rock of Ages:​

Rock of Ages, cleft for me;
Let me hide myself in Thee.

ii. Protected by God, Moses could endure the glory of God passing before him. Isaiah had a glimpse of the glory of God, and it moved him to mourn his own sin and unworthiness (Isaiah 6). John experienced some of the glory of God and fell at the feet of Jesus like a dead man (Revelation 1:17). Paul experienced the glory of God on the Damascus Road, but also in the experience described in 2 Corinthians 12. It was such an amazing experience that he could only barely describe it.​

iii. Others, beyond the times of the Bible, have also experienced glimpses of this glory. Lloyd-Jones mentioned a few:​

• Jonathan Edwards described a time of praying in the forest, kneeling for an hour that seemed to pass in just a few moments because of the powerful sense of God’s glory and presence.
• David Brainerd, a great colonial era missionary to the Native Americans, knelt in the snow and prayed for hours – literally sweating in his body though it was freezing cold in the air. The sweat was a physical reaction to the intensity of the spiritual experience.
• D.L. Moody asked God for such an experience, and when God gave it to him he had to ask God to pull back His hand, because he felt like it was killing him.

iv. What many people speak of today as the presence and the glory of God seems very trivial compared to what Moses and these others experienced. There is no kabod – no weight to their experience of glory.​

v. We also should have an earnest desire to experience God deeply. Paul made it clear that we cannot fully see the glory of God – we see it as in a piece of polished metal, dimly (1 Corinthians 13:12) – but we can see something of it. Paul didn’t say we see nothing of the glory of God, only that we can’t fully see it or comprehend it.​

c. I will take away My hand, and you shall see My back; but My face shall not be seen: Moses could only see God’s back (a unique term often not used for anatomy). The idea is that Moses could only see behind God, not God Himself.

i. “The word…could just as well and more accurately be rendered ‘the after-effects’ of his radiant glory, which had just passed by.” (Kaiser)​

ii. Poole puts it like this: “Thou shalt see a shadow or obscure delineation of my glory, as much as thou canst bear, though not as much as thou dost desire.”​

iii. “These four things are happening at the same time, whenever God draws near to his people – revealing and concealing, blessing and protecting, all happening together at one and the same time. You cannot separate these things.” (Lloyd-Jones)​

iv. With these special protections, God rewarded the desire of Moses to see His glory as much as humanly possible. This demonstrates that God rewards the seeking heart. And as marvelous as this experience was for Moses, it still cannot compare to the revelation of God given to us in Jesus Christ.​

• And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. (John 1:14)
• But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)

 

[MennoSota]

Gideon saw God and lived.

Judges 6:21-23
[21]Then the angel of the lord touched the meat and bread with the tip of the staff in his hand, and fire flamed up from the rock and consumed all he had brought. And the angel of the lord disappeared.
[22]When Gideon realized that it was the angel of the lord, he cried out, “Oh, Sovereign lord, I’m doomed! I have seen the angel of the lord face to face!”
[23]“It is all right,” the lord replied. “Do not be afraid. You will not die.”

 

[Imalive]

In Exodus 33:17-21 it says this
17 And the Lord said to Moses, “I will do the very thing you have asked, because I am pleased with you and I know you by name.”

18 Then Moses said, “Now show me your glory.”

19 And the Lord said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”

21 Then the Lord said, “There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock. 22 When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23 Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen.”

This is said after verse 11 says that "The Lord used to speak to MOses face to face, just as a man speaks to his friend." However, then verse 23 the Lord says that his face must not be seen. So, the phrase "face to face" in verse 11 must mean a personal conversation but not to be taken literally. Then i am wondering what it means that God's glory passes by and that Moses saw God's back. I am assuming that God didn't allow him to see his face because the glory of seeing that would destroy moses since he was still in a human body at that point and still had a sin nature.

There were a lot of ppl who saw Jesus.
Ian McCormack saw Him in heaven but not His face, else he'd go to heaven and could not go back. They even saw Him glorified. Maybe it means see Him as He is completely or something. Cause then you are like Him, thus 'dead' or get raptured.

 

[MennoSota]

There were a lot of ppl who saw Jesus.
Ian McCormack saw Him in heaven but not His face, else he'd go to heaven and could not go back. They even saw Him glorified. Maybe it means see Him as He is completely or something. Cause then you are like Him, thus 'dead' or get raptured.

Imalive, don't follow Ian McCormack. He's a liar, a charlatan and a cult leader.
One of the passages to read regarding the glory of God is Ezekiel chapter 1. The description of God on His throne is very similar to John's description in Revelation.

 

[NewCreation435]

Gideon saw God and lived.

Judges 6:21-23
[21]Then the angel of the lord touched the meat and bread with the tip of the staff in his hand, and fire flamed up from the rock and consumed all he had brought. And the angel of the lord disappeared.
[22]When Gideon realized that it was the angel of the lord, he cried out, “Oh, Sovereign lord, I’m doomed! I have seen the angel of the lord face to face!”
[23]“It is all right,” the lord replied. “Do not be afraid. You will not die.”

I heard one pastor say that these visitations that are mentioned in the Old Testament by the "Angel of the Lord" was actually a preincarnate visit from Jesus

 

[MennoSota]

I heard one pastor say that these visitations that are mentioned in the Old Testament by the "Angel of the Lord" was actually a preincarnate visit from Jesus

Very likely. It is interesting that Gideon immediately thought he was going to be struck dead because He had seen YHWH. God the reassures Gideon that he would not die.
We also read in Job that Satan came before the throne of God. Satan is sinful and fallen, yet God allows him access without being terminated.
What I observe is that God Sovereignly determines, on an individual basis, whether a person lives or dies in His presence. This ought to place a holy terror in our being regarding whom we have access to in prayer. This isn't some little fairy flitting about or some genie to which we have access. This is the creator and sustained of all that exists or ever will exist. We stand before this presence and He either grants us access or he doesn't. We have no say in His decisions. We come to His throne, bowing humbly as we enter. We trust in the atoning sacrifice of God the Son as our means of access without condemnation and being cast out. "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." (Hebrews 10:31)

 

[Josiah]

I wonder.... sometimes..... if we don't get into trouble by IMPOSING our uber-physical, material mindset upon God, the things of God, the words of God (I said 'wonder' lol)?

MAYBE "see" and "face" don't ALWAYS mean the biological realities we tend to limit them to?

I have my degrees in physics..... I am often reminded of how EXTREME I am in my "worldview", my mindset.... forcing all to "fit" within the laws of Physics. And this is DRILLED into all homo sapiens from birth (and has been for over 200 years, this "Age of Science" "Age of Reason"). It's a very small box. I am ALSO a man of faith.... with an equally firm belief in a reality outside that tiny box. It can create a lot of puzzles for me (which I've slowly learned to mostly ignore, lol) and more than a few challenges as I read (and believe) Scripture. There are difficult times when my brain and my soul go in different directions (my brain HATES going outside that tiny box) and I end up with some paradoxes and mysteries. We all wear glasses..... at least I know that mine are EXTREMELY near sighted, "seeing" little beyond the tiny box of materialism and physics..... and yet..... at the same time..... often to a greater degree...... God shows me wonders beyond my wildest dreams.


- Josiah

 

[atpollard]

MAYBE "see" and "face" don't ALWAYS mean the biological realities we tend to limit them to?

... And maybe, sometimes "body" and "blood" mean bread and wine. [sorry, I couldn't resist] :friends:

 

[Josiah]

... And maybe, sometimes "body" and "blood" mean bread and wine. [sorry, I couldn't resist] :friends:

Well, it would mean that "Body" and "Blood" CANNOT mean that, working with the tiny box of materialism, we'd have to be smart and insist God erred here (or at least spoke poorly).... because in the tiny box of materialism, NOTHING can be true if we don't have the physical properties (thus God can't be true) and nothing can be fully TWO things (thus Jesus cannot be both God and man).

Yes, I agree..... the 16th Century rejection of Real Presence by a man named Zwingli is because he was a man in transition to our "modern" mindset, one with a very tiny box, one with EXTREME near-sighnted-ness, a materialist, one where something cannot be true if its outside the laws of physics. Calvin (also a man in this transition) reveals some of this in his questioning of the Two Natures of Christ (for example, "Jesus CANNOT be in heaven and here on Earth because that violates the Laws of Physics!" He said something like that). Well.... I think I know the Laws of Physics better than Calvin or Zwingli (LOL - forgive me).... but I also realize that the extreme near-sightedness, the very modern tiny 'box' , the faith in science/reason/materialism that now so often is sovereign over God (and just assumed) ... well..... God is not bound to that. Truth is not bound to that. Reality is not defined by that. As we move further and further into the tiny realm of science/matter/reason.... God gets smaller too, as does faith and our relationship to him. Many approach God under the sovereignty of this new material mindset.... God can be right (even smart), but only if it 'jibes' with and fits in our decreasing tiny box, only if it "makes sense" to science/materialism/self (fits in our tiny box), only if it answers our questions in a way deemed smart in our little box.


Yup, friends.


- Josiah



.

 

[Imalive]

Stephan saw the glory of God when he died. He could see Jesus though on earth w out dying.

 

[NewCreation435]

Stephan saw the glory of God when he died. He could see Jesus though on earth w out dying.

actually that was right before he died

 

[NewCreation435]

Very likely. It is interesting that Gideon immediately thought he was going to be struck dead because He had seen YHWH. God the reassures Gideon that he would not die.
We also read in Job that Satan came before the throne of God. Satan is sinful and fallen, yet God allows him access without being terminated.
What I observe is that God Sovereignly determines, on an individual basis, whether a person lives or dies in His presence. This ought to place a holy terror in our being regarding whom we have access to in prayer. This isn't some little fairy flitting about or some genie to which we have access. This is the creator and sustained of all that exists or ever will exist. We stand before this presence and He either grants us access or he doesn't. We have no say in His decisions. We come to His throne, bowing humbly as we enter. We trust in the atoning sacrifice of God the Son as our means of access without condemnation and being cast out. "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." (Hebrews 10:31)

There is a message throughout the Bible that God communicates to all of us and it is that He is holy. He is not like us. He desires to be honored and glorified and when we treat him with disrespect their are consequences. Sometimes in the Old Testament those were immediate. LIke when the priest reached out to steady the ark and was struck dead where he stood. Or like Aaron's sons who offered up strange incense before God and were destroyed. God demands to be treated as holy

 

[MennoSota]

There is a message throughout the Bible that God communicates to all of us and it is that He is holy. He is not like us. He desires to be honored and glorified and when we treat him with disrespect their are consequences. Sometimes in the Old Testament those were immediate. LIke when the priest reached out to steady the ark and was struck dead where he stood. Or like Aaron's sons who offered up strange incense before God and were destroyed. God demands to be treated as holy

There is a message throughout the Bible that God is entirely Sovereign over all his creation. He decides whom He will spare and whom he will not spare.

 

[NewCreation435]

There is a message throughout the Bible that God is entirely Sovereign over all his creation. He decides whom He will spare and whom he will not spare.

In college, I went to a lot of bible studies where it seemed like every teacher I heard was talking about the end times. Then one pastor/teacher said to us that the theme of Revelations was the throne of God. To me, the throne represents everything you have been talking about, His Sovereignty, His rule and power over all creation. His absolute right to do whatever He wants, how he wants, when he wants.
I've said before, God's throne is not a two seater and he doesn't need your help.