Follow the leader - or Simon says.

[MoreCoffee]

In church what is your reaction to requests made by your pastor. Do you follow his/her lead by observing their example and emulating it or do you respond only to what he/she teaches in sermons and other exhortations made to the congregation or to you directly and individually?

 

[NewCreation435]

what kind of requests?

 

[Lamb]

Most requests should be followed by prayer...wouldn't you agree? Unless it's a request to have a piece of cake

 

[MennoSota]

Is this about the Pope?

 

[NewCreation435]

Most requests should be followed by prayer...wouldn't you agree? Unless it's a request to have a piece of cake

Or donuts. I love me some donuts

 

[MoreCoffee]

The title "follow the leader ..." is about a game where people (usually children) physically follow a leader so I used that part of the title to point to following a leader's example more than his/her words. and the other part of the title "or Simon says" is another game where people (usually children) follow the leader's words if the words start with the phrase "Simon says ..." and that was to point to following the teaching/sermons/homilies of a pastor whenever their words have some significant connection to what holy scripture says.

 

[MennoSota]

So...this is about the pope?

 

[MoreCoffee]

[MENTION=394]MennoSota[/MENTION], I've never met the pope so he is not a leader that was in my mind. I am thinking of local pastors and the elders in a congregation. But if you know the pope personally and want to discuss your relationship with him - for example if you listen to his sermons and they teach you how to walk with God or if you observe him as he works with people (including you) and you want to follow his example then tell us about it. Otherwise this thread is not about "the pope" unless some one else knows him personally.

 

[MennoSota]

[MENTION=394]MennoSota[/MENTION], I've never met the pope so he is not a leader that was in my mind. I am thinking of local pastors and the elders in a congregation. But if you know the pope personally and want to discuss your relationship with him - for example if you listen to his sermons and they teach you how to walk with God or if you observe him as he works with people (including you) and you want to follow his example then tell us about it. Otherwise this thread is not about "the pope" unless some one else knows him personally.

It's titled "Follow the leader, or Simon says." You can't blame me for immediately thinking of the pope.

 

[atpollard]

It's titled "Follow the leader, or Simon says." You can't blame me for immediately thinking of the pope.

You’ve gotta love ‘Peter’ jokes ... Simon says, that’s funny.

 

[atpollard]

Neither. I weigh both (actions and words) against scripture and I do what God and my conscience commands.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Neither. I weigh both (actions and words) against scripture and I do what God and my conscience commands.

That is a species of "Simon says" I think, but with a bible in place of a preacher.

 

[MennoSota]

That is a species of "Simon says" I think, but with a bible in place of a preacher.

Horrors...following the word of God.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Following one personal interpretation of scripture is no different from following another personal interpretation of scripture. If the interpretation is your own it is still an interpretation. And interpretation is very close kin to opinion.

 

[atpollard]

Following one personal interpretation of scripture is no different from following another personal interpretation of scripture. If the interpretation is your own it is still an interpretation. And interpretation is very close kin to opinion.

The things in scripture that require lots of ‘personal opinion’ tend to require very little action. Escatology does not dramatically impact my daily encounters. Whose sins Jesus carried to the cross is not a matter of vital personal concern.

The things in scripture that impact daily life tend to be much clearer and less subject to personal opinion. Then too, if the Holy Spirit has lost His ability to lead the Children of God into Truth when they inquire of God’s Word, then we have much bigger problems ... Bertrand Russel may have been correct.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The things in scripture that require lots of ‘personal opinion’ tend to require very little action. Escatology does not dramatically impact my daily encounters. Whose sins Jesus carried to the cross is not a matter of vital personal concern.

The things in scripture that impact daily life tend to be much clearer and less subject to personal opinion. Then too, if the Holy Spirit has lost His ability to lead the Children of God into Truth when they inquire of God’s Word, then we have much bigger problems ... Bertrand Russel may have been correct.

If what you say about day to day things being clear then why is there so much difference of opinion about them? Why do people argue for centuries about free will & predestination, submersion & pouring in baptism, regeneration and baptismal regeneration, the real presence & memorial symbolism, made righteous and declared righteous? Most of the hottest disputes in Christianity are about day to day things and things that appertain to salvation. Surely this cannot be because those matters are all very clearly laid out in direct clear language in the holy scriptures.

 

[atpollard]

If what you say about day to day things being clear then why is there so much difference of opinion about them? Why do people argue for centuries about free will & predestination, submersion & pouring in baptism, regeneration and baptismal regeneration, the real presence & memorial symbolism, made righteous and declared righteous? Most of the hottest disputes in Christianity are about day to day things and things that appertain to salvation. Surely this cannot be because those matters are all very clearly laid out in direct clear language in the holy scriptures.

Let’s assume, for this discussion, that free will is 100% correct and there is no predestination. Will this actually impact when and how and why you share the good news with those in need that God sends into your life. Now let’s assume that the elect are all 100% predestined. Will that change when and how and why you share the good news with those that God brings into your life? Whichever point is correct, the Great Comission stands unchanged (and perfectly clear). The commandment about loving our neighbor stands clear and unchanged. The call to always be ready to give a reason for the hope that lies within us stands clear and unchanged. Free will vs predestination is an argument that is vital to theologians, and largely irrelevant to walking in the good deeds which the Father has prepared in advance for us.

Are you one iota more or less saved by the blood of Christ shed on the cross if transsubstantiation is true rather than transsubstitution? Am I less saved believing in memorial symbolism? Is THAT really what limits the ability of God to transform a person’s life ... a poor understanding of the mystery of the body and blood of Christ?

How about this:
John 3:16-21 NASB
16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

Is this ambiguous or confusing?

 

[MennoSota]

Following one personal interpretation of scripture is no different from following another personal interpretation of scripture. If the interpretation is your own it is still an interpretation. And interpretation is very close kin to opinion.

You have just made an argument that the Bible is relative. It only has meaning if one gives it meaning and...that meaning is subject to each persons interpretation no matter the interpretation.
Toss out all rules of textual interpretation because each person makes up their own rules.
It's amazing the relativism you have just proclaimed, MC. By your statement you open up the Bible to simultaneously mean anything, everything and nothing all at the same time.
Bravo

 

[MennoSota]

If what you say about day to day things being clear then why is there so much difference of opinion about them? Why do people argue for centuries about free will & predestination, submersion & pouring in baptism, regeneration and baptismal regeneration, the real presence & memorial symbolism, made righteous and declared righteous? Most of the hottest disputes in Christianity are about day to day things and things that appertain to salvation. Surely this cannot be because those matters are all very clearly laid out in direct clear language in the holy scriptures.

...election...those whom God has chosen will be saved. It's pretty simple when you let God be Sovereign and be the King of Kings.

 

[Josiah]

If what you say about day to day things being clear then why is there so much difference of opinion about them? Why do people argue for centuries about free will & predestination, submersion & pouring in baptism, regeneration and baptismal regeneration, the real presence & memorial symbolism, made righteous and declared righteous? Most of the hottest disputes in Christianity are about day to day things and things that appertain to salvation. Surely this cannot be because those matters are all very clearly laid out in direct clear language in the holy scriptures.

There are individual persons and denominations (like yours) that don't accept Scripture as normative - so to them, it doesn't matter if anything is laid out in Scripture (clearly or otherwise).

There are individual persons and denominations (like yours) that insist that theology must "jibe" with its own opinions, theories and philosphies (or Scripture would be wrong since self has declared self incapable of such), or to put it the way my Greek Orthodox friend puts it, "they can't leave well enough alone." Consider how Scripture says "this is my body/blood" but some individual persons and denominations (like yours) just changes it say to "this CHANGED INTO...." or "This MERELY REPRESENTS..." Much of our disagreements is not because of what Scripture says but because of how individual persons and denominations ADD and DELETE from it to make it "fit" their own "logic" and "philosophy" and "speculations" and thus to keep Scripture from being wrong (or just unclear or incomplete). Or worse, to prop up power claiming lording over others (such as the 1870 Dogma of the INFALLIBILITY of the Pope in Rome). It's called pride, MoreCoffee. It's self placing self above God. Humility would result in fewer disputes... but of course also in more mystery and "unanswered" questions and less lording it over others (including God).

There's a problem, too, because there are individual persons and denominations (like yours) obsessed with individualism; the insistence that it's primarily Jesus and ME. This means they simply place little regard in the church or the ecumenical consensus because their near-vision is so extreme that they can only see the one that appears in the mirror. If self (say a denomination) agrees with SELF than self is right (and God better agree or God would be wrong - and that's unthinkable).



It's not so hard to understand..... just to correct.



- Josiah




.