Even without faith Jesus is still Savior

[Lamb]

Yesterday my pastor said during his sermon that Easter is for everyone. It's not just for those who believe.

Today I came across a response from another Lutheran pastor elsewhere who said Even without faith Jesus is still Savior.

These two lines of thinking point us to what is important, even to those who do not believe. Jesus died for our sins and for those who don't want that forgiveness.

 

[Cassia]

Yesterday my pastor said during his sermon that Easter is for everyone. It's not just for those who believe.

Today I came across a response from another Lutheran pastor elsewhere who said Even without faith Jesus is still Savior.

These two lines of thinking point us to what is important, even to those who do not believe. Jesus died for our sins and for those who don't want that forgiveness.

Not believing that Jesus is the savior does not make it any less true. Christ is the savior because there is no salvation in any other Name. He died for the world but He's rejected by many. The cornerstone rejected becomes a stumbing block.

 

[Josiah]

Jesus is the Savior. Period. Ain't complicated.

Now, if I don't have faith I may not benefit from that, but that has nothing whatsoever to do with the foundational, "keystone" proclamation of Christianity: Jesus is the Savior.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

I'd heard a statement similar some years ago in the Presbyterian church. The pastor was making a point about how Christianity is often accused of "excluding" others by insisting that Christ is the Savior. But he made the point that John 3:16 references "... whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life". That's inclusive. It includes everyone.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I'd heard a statement similar some years ago in the Presbyterian church. The pastor was making a point about how Christianity is often accused of "excluding" others by insisting that Christ is the Savior. But he made the point that John 3:16 references "... whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life". That's inclusive. It includes everyone.

Catholics allow for a more inclusive perspective on salvation.

 

[Josiah]

I'd heard a statement similar some years ago in the Presbyterian church. The pastor was making a point about how Christianity is often accused of "excluding" others by insisting that Christ is the Savior. But he made the point that John 3:16 references "... whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life". That's inclusive. It includes everyone.

ABSOLUTELY!!!!


But it's a VERY odd thing for a Presbyterian/Calvinist minister to say since Calvinism teaches that Jesus only died for the elect, a minority of people, and not for everyone. One of the distinctive, defining points of Reform/Calvinist theology is LIMITED atonement (the "L" of TULIP), that Christ did NOT die for all but rather for the FEW. But I agree with that pastor..... And it IS our certainty since I can KNOW Jesus died for ME since He died for ALL people (and thus that must include me). Without that, there is no way to know if my faith is in vain since Christ didn't die for ME and thus has nothing to offer me.


Yup, it's John 3:16. Ain't complicated.



Pax Christi



- Josiah

 

[atpollard]

John 3:16 has a context ... John 3:1-21 [NKJV]

1 There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”
3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”
10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.[fn] 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but[fn] have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

John 3:3 ... “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
John 3:14 ... And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
John 3:15 ... that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:16 ... For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:18 ... “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Jesus came to save anyone (excluding none), but not to save everyone (including all). There is always dark and light, sheep and goats, wheat and tares, Jacob and Esau. Why is a mystery, but the reality is a biblical fact.

 

[IACOBVS]

John 3:16 has a context ... John 3:1-21 [NKJV]

1 There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”
3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”
10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.[fn] 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but[fn] have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

John 3:3 ... “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
John 3:14 ... And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
John 3:15 ... that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:16 ... For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:18 ... “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Jesus came to save anyone (excluding none), but not to save everyone (including all). There is always dark and light, sheep and goats, wheat and tares, Jacob and Esau. Why is a mystery, but the reality is a biblical fact.

But if Jesus came to save all and shed his blood for all, doesn't it make it make him somewhat of a failure if he isn't successful in actually saving all? Just wondering?

 

[psalms 91]

But if Jesus came to save all and shed his blood for all, doesn't it make it make him somewhat of a failure if he isn't successful in actually saving all? Just wondering?

No, He has done all He can it is us that are failures

 

[Lamb]

But if Jesus came to save all and shed his blood for all, doesn't it make it make him somewhat of a failure if he isn't successful in actually saving all? Just wondering?

All the sins of the world were forgiven at the cross. Jesus didn't fail. It's man who fails to believe in Him

 

[Josiah]

But if Jesus came to save all and shed his blood for all, doesn't it make it make him somewhat of a failure if he isn't successful in actually saving all? Just wondering?

The Protestant position on justification (narrow) is as follows: Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide as ONE, united, inseparable doctrine. If any piece of this is "missing" in the case of a single individual then justification is missing. The first two never are missing (except in the view of radical Calvinists), the last part seems to be the case with about 5 billion persons currently on the planet.

Jesus came to save anyone (excluding none), but not to save everyone (including all). There is always dark and light, sheep and goats, wheat and tares, Jacob and Esau. Why is a mystery, but the reality is a biblical fact.

IMO, Jesus came to save all. But that doesn't mean all are saved since our position is not: Sola Gratia - Solus Christus ( faith being irrelevant). The "MYSTERY" in my view is not that Jesus appears to have failed OR that Jesus both came for all AND equally didn't, the "mystery" is why some have faith and some do not. IMO, we simply don't know the answer to that. The "Arminianism" attempt to insert "free will" into the equation appeals to modern, post-Enlightenment man but I don't believe it's biblical.... the "Limited atonement" and "predestination to hell" attempt appeals to the "logic" of some people but I don't accept it as biblical either.


I think it is important to affirm what the Bible tells us, and above all, that is that Jesus IS THE Savior (whether an individual has faith or not). And I think it's sound to say that in some individuals, Sola Gratis - Solus Christus - Sola Fide doesn't apply because faith is absent. Again, WHY it's absent is something I simply don't know and won't subject God to any opinion I might invent, but I don't believe the "fault" is with God.


Are our positions similar, friend?



Soli Deo Gloria


- Josiah




.

 

[atpollard]

All the sins of the world were forgiven at the cross. Jesus didn't fail. It's man who fails to believe in Him

Is God then punishing people for sins that were forgiven?
(And how were they forgiven if people are still being punished for them? Isn't that the definition of unforgiven?)

 

[atpollard]

IMO, Jesus came to save all. But that doesn't mean all are saved since our position is not: Sola Gratia - Solus Christus ( faith being irrelevant). The "MYSTERY" in my view is not that Jesus appears to have failed OR that Jesus both came for all AND equally didn't, the "mystery" is why some have faith and some do not. IMO, we simply don't know the answer to that. The "Arminianism" attempt to insert "free will" into the equation appeals to modern, post-Enlightenment man but I don't believe it's biblical.... the "Limited atonement" and "predestination to hell" attempt appeals to the "logic" of some people but I don't accept it as biblical either.


I think it is important to affirm what the Bible tells us, and above all, that is that Jesus IS THE Savior (whether an individual has faith or not). And I think it's sound to say that in some individuals, Sola Gratis - Solus Christus - Sola Fide doesn't apply because faith is absent. Again, WHY it's absent is something I simply don't know and won't subject God to any opinion I might invent, but I don't believe the "fault" is with God.


Are our positions similar, friend?

Soli Deo Gloria

- Josiah

Yes, in general.

To be honest I am not sure that Jesus came to save all (every person). I believe that the point being made by the word "all men" is that grace has been made available to all people groups and not just the Chosen Nation of Israel. It is a key distinction that is repeated throughout the NT and foreshadowed in the OT.

I will freely acknowledge that it is not God's will that any should perish, so no "double predestination". On the other hand I am sure that Jesus came to save HIS SHEEP, those the Father had drawn to him. What that means for those 'not His sheep', I am unsure of. I am only sure that our sins are our fault and, therefore, God's judgement is as perfectly just as his mercy is an act of perfect grace.

 

[Josiah]

Is God then punishing people for sins that were forgiven?
(And how were they forgiven if people are still being punished for them? Isn't that the definition of unforgiven?)

People may suffer the normal, temporary "consequences" of sins - even sins which God has forgiven. A person pushes a knife deep in their chest.... and repents in faith. Will God forgive? I believe so. Does the wound and physical damage suddenly go away? Not necessarily. But that does NOT prove that God has not forgiven them.


I agree with Lamm. Our sins were forgiven on the Cross.... however, such is not necessarily applied in our individual case where there is not faith: the Sola Gratia - Solus Christus aspects ARE in place but the Sola Fide is not, and the whole issue must be in place for justification to apply in the case of an individual. Let me again use this illustration: You buy everyone at CH a brand new Corvette. The minute you did so, it's been done. But perhaps I don't know about this...... or I believe you.... I don't trust you.... I have never actually taken possession of the Corvette. Is the Corvette mine? In a sense. Do I have it, am I blessed by it, and I benefiting from your gracious gift? No.

To be honest I am not sure that Jesus came to save all (every person).

I am sure. Not only for biblical reasons, but for pastoral ones. If Jesus did not, then there is NO WAY WHATSOEVER that any knows if Jesus is their Savior, if God has mercy and grace on THEM.... in which case it is just as likely that our faith is in what is TRUE but made unavailable to me, my faith is true but denied/blocked. How would one know if our TRUE faith is blocked/denied - and we are going to hell in spite of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide? If such were true, Christianity has nothing to offer any individual believer. Every believer I know could be hellbound because God is BLOCKING Sola Gratia- Solus Christus - Sola Fide in their individual cases with no way for them to know. Or me. Evangelism, spreading the Gospel would be entirely meaningless.



Good to hear from you!



- Josiah

 

[atpollard]

But if Jesus came to save all and shed his blood for all, doesn't it make it make him somewhat of a failure if he isn't successful in actually saving all? Just wondering?

I'll let Jesus answer for himself:

John 6:35-45 [NIV]
35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”
43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’[fn] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.



John 10:25-30 [NIV]
25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[fn]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

 

[Lamb]

Is God then punishing people for sins that were forgiven?
(And how were they forgiven if people are still being punished for them? Isn't that the definition of unforgiven?)

They don't receive the benefit of forgiveness at their deaths if they reject Him. Only those by grace through faith benefit at their deaths of the forgiveness of sins won at the cross.

 

[Pedrito]

Post #1 on Page 1: “Jesus died for our sins and for those who don't want that forgiveness.”

Post #2 on Page 1: “He died for the world but He's rejected by many.”

Post #7 on Page 1: “Jesus came to save anyone (excluding none), but not to save everyone (including all).”

Post #8 on Page 1: “But if Jesus came to save all and shed his blood for all, doesn't it make it make him somewhat of a failure if he isn't successful in actually saving all? ”

Post #10 on Page 1: “All the sins of the world were forgiven at the cross. Jesus didn't fail. It's man who fails to believe in Him”

Post #12 on Page 2: “Is God then punishing people for sins that were forgiven?
(And how were they forgiven if people are still being punished for them? Isn't that the definition of unforgiven?)”

Post #13 on Page 2: “To be honest I am not sure that Jesus came to save all (every person)…

I will freely acknowledge that it is not God's will that any should perish, so no "double predestination". On the other hand I am sure that Jesus came to save HIS SHEEP, those the Father had drawn to him. What that means for those 'not His sheep', I am unsure of...”

Post #16 on Page 2: “They don't receive the benefit of forgiveness at their deaths if they reject Him. Only those by grace through faith benefit at their deaths of the forgiveness of sins won at the cross. ”

==============================================================================================

Two simple questions are pertinent with respect to all this.

1. What about people who didn’t get the chance to accept or reject, because they didn’t hear about his atoning death after it happened, or because they died before it took place? Those people are normally ignored in discussions of this nature.

2. In the light of “Who [God] will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.” (1 Timothy 2:4), has God proven to be a failure? (Or will He be so proven in the future?)

And a third.

Didn’t Jesus Himself say, “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.” (John 12:32)? Did not Paul speak of the fulfilment of that? “Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.” (1 Timothy 2:6)?

Which church’s doctrine embraces with comfort, all the Scripture offered so far in this thread’s posts?

 

[Josiah]

Just because one has the ability to ask a question doesn't mean that any have the ability to "answer" it, much less that God is mandated to agree with such.

 

[atpollard]

1. What about people who didn’t get the chance to accept or reject, because they didn’t hear about his atoning death after it happened, or because they died before it took place? Those people are normally ignored in discussions of this nature.

From a similar question on another board:

It seems pretty undeniable that the humans in Genesis had progressed past the hunter/gatherer phase, as Cain is mentioned watering seeds, growing crops, being punished by not being able to grow crops. So how is it that these were the first humans on earth? Furthermore, what would be the religious perspective on the destiny of the soul of the Cro-Magnon with no clue what God's rules were, basically looking at anything that keeps him alive as divine? Is he damned because he failed to get the memo?

[My response repeated here and just as valid to your question]

I'll let David and Paul answer you:

Psalm 19:1-6 [NIV]
1 The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
2 Day after day they pour forth speech;
night after night they reveal knowledge.
3 They have no speech, they use no words;
no sound is heard from them.
4 Yet their voice goes out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.
In the heavens God has pitched a tent for the sun.
5 It is like a bridegroom coming out of his chamber,
like a champion rejoicing to run his course.
6 It rises at one end of the heavens
and makes its circuit to the other;
nothing is deprived of its warmth.


Romans 1:18-20 [NIV]
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.


Romans 2:12-16 [NIV]
12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.


I can think of no reason why this would not apply to all men and women, including those who painted the pictures in the caves in Lascaux, France or were buried in the rock shelter at Les Eyzies, Dordogne, France.

[... or anyone else who never heard the Gospel].

 

[IACOBVS]

The Protestant position on justification (narrow) is as follows: Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide as ONE, united, inseparable doctrine. If any piece of this is "missing" in the case of a single individual then justification is missing. The first two never are missing (except in the view of radical Calvinists), the last part seems to be the case with about 5 billion persons currently on the planet.







IMO, Jesus came to save all. But that doesn't mean all are saved since our position is not: Sola Gratia - Solus Christus ( faith being irrelevant). The "MYSTERY" in my view is not that Jesus appears to have failed OR that Jesus both came for all AND equally didn't, the "mystery" is why some have faith and some do not. IMO, we simply don't know the answer to that. The "Arminianism" attempt to insert "free will" into the equation appeals to modern, post-Enlightenment man but I don't believe it's biblical.... the "Limited atonement" and "predestination to hell" attempt appeals to the "logic" of some people but I don't accept it as biblical either.


I think it is important to affirm what the Bible tells us, and above all, that is that Jesus IS THE Savior (whether an individual has faith or not). And I think it's sound to say that in some individuals, Sola Gratis - Solus Christus - Sola Fide doesn't apply because faith is absent. Again, WHY it's absent is something I simply don't know and won't subject God to any opinion I might invent, but I don't believe the "fault" is with God.


Are our positions similar, friend?



Soli Deo Gloria


- Josiah




.

Friend, our positions are very similar, but very different. You have all the right questions. I hope you find the right answers ... not that they affect your own salvation.