Andrew
Matt 18:15
- Joined
- Aug 25, 2017
- Messages
- 6,645
- Age
- 40
- Gender
- Male
- Religious Affiliation
- Christian
- Political Affiliation
- Conservative
- Marital Status
- Single
- Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
- Yes
Last edited:
Doctrine of Election
- Thread starter Andrew
- Start date
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2015
- Messages
- 13,927
- Gender
- Male
- Religious Affiliation
- Lutheran
- Political Affiliation
- Conservative
- Marital Status
- Married
- Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
- Yes
Andrew
Matt 18:15
- Joined
- Aug 25, 2017
- Messages
- 6,645
- Age
- 40
- Gender
- Male
- Religious Affiliation
- Christian
- Political Affiliation
- Conservative
- Marital Status
- Single
- Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
- Yes
Calvinism does not believe in double predestination, but SOME unbelievers will be hardened by God but it does not apply to all unbelievers IMO, many will be saved, but also many will follow the beast and the devil which God will allow to test the world for a time.
Not ALL have the chance to be saved, these are those whom God has allowed to do the devils work. Remember that the Lake of Fire is created SOLELY for the devil and his angels AND those who follow the beast.... to be in the same place where God punishes the Devil and his Angels must be the most extremely tormenting and the darkest place to ever be, woe to them! The lake of fire makes hell seem like paradise...
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2015
- Messages
- 13,927
- Gender
- Male
- Religious Affiliation
- Lutheran
- Political Affiliation
- Conservative
- Marital Status
- Married
- Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
- Yes
[MENTION=387]Andrew[/MENTION]
Yes, Calvinism traditionally and officially DOES speak of predestinating (using that specific word) applying to BOTH those heading for heaven and those not.
Now, yes, it seems to ME it's really hard to find a Calvinist TODAY who believes that; the once distinctive mark of Calvinism has been re-themed, re-written, re-understood (and it's a VERY good thing!). Today, Calvinists wiggle creatively around that. Today, while the WORD "predestine" may still be used (the word means to actively CAUSE something, to ACTIVELY bring it about) when speaking of those heading to hell.... they tend to define the word in two VERY different ways: when it applies to the saved, it means what it means but when it applies to all others, it means "to desire, cause, bring about,to be responsible for absolutely nothing at all." The way the word is now defined when referring to the unsaved, it means there is no DOUBLE predestination but now Calvinism simply agrees with Catholicism, Anglicanism, Lutheranism (and Scripture) - God predestines the Saved. STOP! He does NOT desire or chose or cause anyone in anyway to not not be saved; God acts on SOME and not on others, STOP. Which of course means that the HUGE, HUGE, HUGE deal that TULIP makes to make Calvinism distinctive, the HUGE, HUGE deal Calvinism made to say it DISAGREES with all other faith communities on this point.... well, it's no longer true; Calvinism has returned to biblical, orthodox, traditional Christianity on this point. And I think that's generally true.
Let me add this is NOT AT ALL unusual. In my faith community (Lutheranism) we have a similar sitiuation. Our official Confessions STATE some amazing things about the Catholic papacy. And it would be deceptive of me to TRY to argue that the words they used MEANT the opposite of what they mean, or that they MEANT one thing here and something very different there, but that would be deceptive, unhistorical and wrong. These things got in the Confessions EXACTLY BECAUSE they were distinctive, things the RCC did NOT believe about the Pope! Silly to argue they actually are there to agree with Catholicism but the words mean the opposite of what they are. Look.... Lutherans said it. They believed it. They were wrong. Today, you will find most Lutherans simply argue that NO, the Pope (personally) or even the Papal OFFICE (if you want to re-write the Confessions to say that) are NOT the Anti-Christ. That's unbibical and just WRONG. And I've yet to find a Lutheran who believes it is true. Now..... some Lutherans WILL say that he speaks for his denomination..... and the denomination at times says things that undermine the Gospel of Jesus... and thus is "anti-Christ" since it works against Christ..... well..... maybe..... but that's a huge stretch to saying "ergo, Pope Francis IS tHE ANTI-CHRIST.' This kept me from becoming a Lutheran for well over a year, until I understood - Lutherans believe the original Lutheran view is just WRONG. This has happened in Catholicism, too. Sometimes you need the honesty to say "Yup, this was believed" and the honesty to say "And it was wrong." EVERY CALVINIST PERSONALLY KNOWN TO ME says exactly that about DOUBLE Predestination. Including my wife's former pastor (she grew up in a small, very conservative Reformed church.... her whole side of the family are all Reformed).
As for "hardening".... some Calvinists like to quote a verse that says God hardened Pharaoh's heart. We can explore this elsewhere, but actually if you read the account, there is a CHAIN of statements before it about Pharoah hardening his own heart... although eventually he is "locked" into that. EXACTLY the dynamics of all this is beyond our comprehension, but this account of one man who repeatedly hardening his own heart finally being "confirmed in that" is not a solid basis for a whole theology; it's one case and we know very, very, very little about it. Some suggest nothing more is going on here than God is causing Pharaoh to be an instrument of God so that God's will is done in THIS MATTER and that it has absolutely nothing to do with heaven or hell, with justification. Not only do these FEW Calvinists entirely ignore the context of this "hardening" but it's not about justification at all.
NONE have the choice to be saved. But that doesn't mandate that therefore God DESIRES and CAUSES and is GLORIFIED by most frying eternally in hell....
Calvinists and Lutherans are close brothers. And we both are very, very passionate monergists. I use to listen a lot to a radio program called "The White Horse Inn" that was hosted jointly by conservative Reformed and Lutheran theologians. But BOTH traditions had a period, soon after each was founed, by radicals. Lutheranism came to reject this movement in Lutheranism, but Calvinism was in part taken over by it. Both seemed OBSESSED with making it all "make sense", in appointing self to answer the questions of self and demand that God agrees in order for God to be as wise as they. Today, this is a major difference in our traditions. Lutherans are fine with affirming Scripture and leaving it there, "letting God have the last word," with paradox and balance, leaving the proverbial 'dots' unconnected. Part of this flows from our strong Law/Gospel distinction (this also cranks out as a Justification/Sanctification distinction) but also an embrace of humility and a deep respect for Scripture (and not subjecting it to our wisdom and thus eisegesis). Calvinists are simply eager to theorize - and turn that into dogma (Calvinists themselves stressed that TULIP in part defines what is DISTICTIVE, DIFFERENT in Calvinism than elsewhere). I realized - I DO - there is a question of "why some and not all?" And Lutherans leave this exactly where the Ecumenical Council of Orange does.... where the Bible does.... where all Christians before these few later-day radical Calvinists did..... God desires all to be saved, Christ died for all.... God does not give faith to all." WHY? The Bible never says, and all the reasons given end up conflicting with Scripture. Arminianism with it's "free will" and "foreknowledge but not predestination".... Pelagianism's "Only those who earn it get it".... Calvinism's "God desires most to fry, causes most to fry, and is gloried by them frying.... along with "Jesus didn't die for most so there is no Gospel for most." All these human theories.... flooftwing from the answers they give to the questions they ask themselves.... are not biblical. HONESTLY, we don't KNOW how all this "cranks out!" HOW exactly God performs His miracle of life/justification. For Lutherans, it's okay to admit that. IF you affirm that Scripture actually STATES.... and leave your questions as questions..... you'll be biblical, but you'll have unaswered questions; and your theology will be true. I have a Greek Orthodox friend who often says, "A lot of Christians just can't shut up." The Bible doesn't get us into trouble, our mouths do. The propensity of self to think that self is "the answer man", Self is the "Corrector of God," Self is appointed to answer the questions of self and self is SO smart that God bows before self. Luther said, "Humility is the foundation of all sound theology."
A blessed Easter season to you! (BTW, that statement does not dogmatically prove I want all the other 7.5 billion people on the planet to have a HORRIBLE Easter Season and I will make that happen, lol)
-Josiah
.
Yes, Calvinism traditionally and officially DOES speak of predestinating (using that specific word) applying to BOTH those heading for heaven and those not.
Now, yes, it seems to ME it's really hard to find a Calvinist TODAY who believes that; the once distinctive mark of Calvinism has been re-themed, re-written, re-understood (and it's a VERY good thing!). Today, Calvinists wiggle creatively around that. Today, while the WORD "predestine" may still be used (the word means to actively CAUSE something, to ACTIVELY bring it about) when speaking of those heading to hell.... they tend to define the word in two VERY different ways: when it applies to the saved, it means what it means but when it applies to all others, it means "to desire, cause, bring about,to be responsible for absolutely nothing at all." The way the word is now defined when referring to the unsaved, it means there is no DOUBLE predestination but now Calvinism simply agrees with Catholicism, Anglicanism, Lutheranism (and Scripture) - God predestines the Saved. STOP! He does NOT desire or chose or cause anyone in anyway to not not be saved; God acts on SOME and not on others, STOP. Which of course means that the HUGE, HUGE, HUGE deal that TULIP makes to make Calvinism distinctive, the HUGE, HUGE deal Calvinism made to say it DISAGREES with all other faith communities on this point.... well, it's no longer true; Calvinism has returned to biblical, orthodox, traditional Christianity on this point. And I think that's generally true.
Let me add this is NOT AT ALL unusual. In my faith community (Lutheranism) we have a similar sitiuation. Our official Confessions STATE some amazing things about the Catholic papacy. And it would be deceptive of me to TRY to argue that the words they used MEANT the opposite of what they mean, or that they MEANT one thing here and something very different there, but that would be deceptive, unhistorical and wrong. These things got in the Confessions EXACTLY BECAUSE they were distinctive, things the RCC did NOT believe about the Pope! Silly to argue they actually are there to agree with Catholicism but the words mean the opposite of what they are. Look.... Lutherans said it. They believed it. They were wrong. Today, you will find most Lutherans simply argue that NO, the Pope (personally) or even the Papal OFFICE (if you want to re-write the Confessions to say that) are NOT the Anti-Christ. That's unbibical and just WRONG. And I've yet to find a Lutheran who believes it is true. Now..... some Lutherans WILL say that he speaks for his denomination..... and the denomination at times says things that undermine the Gospel of Jesus... and thus is "anti-Christ" since it works against Christ..... well..... maybe..... but that's a huge stretch to saying "ergo, Pope Francis IS tHE ANTI-CHRIST.' This kept me from becoming a Lutheran for well over a year, until I understood - Lutherans believe the original Lutheran view is just WRONG. This has happened in Catholicism, too. Sometimes you need the honesty to say "Yup, this was believed" and the honesty to say "And it was wrong." EVERY CALVINIST PERSONALLY KNOWN TO ME says exactly that about DOUBLE Predestination. Including my wife's former pastor (she grew up in a small, very conservative Reformed church.... her whole side of the family are all Reformed).
As for "hardening".... some Calvinists like to quote a verse that says God hardened Pharaoh's heart. We can explore this elsewhere, but actually if you read the account, there is a CHAIN of statements before it about Pharoah hardening his own heart... although eventually he is "locked" into that. EXACTLY the dynamics of all this is beyond our comprehension, but this account of one man who repeatedly hardening his own heart finally being "confirmed in that" is not a solid basis for a whole theology; it's one case and we know very, very, very little about it. Some suggest nothing more is going on here than God is causing Pharaoh to be an instrument of God so that God's will is done in THIS MATTER and that it has absolutely nothing to do with heaven or hell, with justification. Not only do these FEW Calvinists entirely ignore the context of this "hardening" but it's not about justification at all.
NONE have the choice to be saved. But that doesn't mandate that therefore God DESIRES and CAUSES and is GLORIFIED by most frying eternally in hell....
Calvinists and Lutherans are close brothers. And we both are very, very passionate monergists. I use to listen a lot to a radio program called "The White Horse Inn" that was hosted jointly by conservative Reformed and Lutheran theologians. But BOTH traditions had a period, soon after each was founed, by radicals. Lutheranism came to reject this movement in Lutheranism, but Calvinism was in part taken over by it. Both seemed OBSESSED with making it all "make sense", in appointing self to answer the questions of self and demand that God agrees in order for God to be as wise as they. Today, this is a major difference in our traditions. Lutherans are fine with affirming Scripture and leaving it there, "letting God have the last word," with paradox and balance, leaving the proverbial 'dots' unconnected. Part of this flows from our strong Law/Gospel distinction (this also cranks out as a Justification/Sanctification distinction) but also an embrace of humility and a deep respect for Scripture (and not subjecting it to our wisdom and thus eisegesis). Calvinists are simply eager to theorize - and turn that into dogma (Calvinists themselves stressed that TULIP in part defines what is DISTICTIVE, DIFFERENT in Calvinism than elsewhere). I realized - I DO - there is a question of "why some and not all?" And Lutherans leave this exactly where the Ecumenical Council of Orange does.... where the Bible does.... where all Christians before these few later-day radical Calvinists did..... God desires all to be saved, Christ died for all.... God does not give faith to all." WHY? The Bible never says, and all the reasons given end up conflicting with Scripture. Arminianism with it's "free will" and "foreknowledge but not predestination".... Pelagianism's "Only those who earn it get it".... Calvinism's "God desires most to fry, causes most to fry, and is gloried by them frying.... along with "Jesus didn't die for most so there is no Gospel for most." All these human theories.... flooftwing from the answers they give to the questions they ask themselves.... are not biblical. HONESTLY, we don't KNOW how all this "cranks out!" HOW exactly God performs His miracle of life/justification. For Lutherans, it's okay to admit that. IF you affirm that Scripture actually STATES.... and leave your questions as questions..... you'll be biblical, but you'll have unaswered questions; and your theology will be true. I have a Greek Orthodox friend who often says, "A lot of Christians just can't shut up." The Bible doesn't get us into trouble, our mouths do. The propensity of self to think that self is "the answer man", Self is the "Corrector of God," Self is appointed to answer the questions of self and self is SO smart that God bows before self. Luther said, "Humility is the foundation of all sound theology."
A blessed Easter season to you! (BTW, that statement does not dogmatically prove I want all the other 7.5 billion people on the planet to have a HORRIBLE Easter Season and I will make that happen, lol)
-Josiah
.
Last edited:
atpollard
Well-known member
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2017
- Messages
- 2,573
- Location
- Florida
- Gender
- Male
- Religious Affiliation
- Baptist
- Political Affiliation
- Conservative
- Marital Status
- Married
- Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
- Yes
Let me guess ... another NON CALVINIST explaining what Calvinists believe (inaccurately) and then refuting the claim that no one is making.
Did I guess right?
MennoSota
Well-known member
- Joined
- Sep 24, 2017
- Messages
- 7,102
- Age
- 54
- Gender
- Male
- Religious Affiliation
- Christian
- Political Affiliation
- Moderate
- Marital Status
- Married
Andrew
Matt 18:15
- Joined
- Aug 25, 2017
- Messages
- 6,645
- Age
- 40
- Gender
- Male
- Religious Affiliation
- Christian
- Political Affiliation
- Conservative
- Marital Status
- Single
- Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
- Yes
To me the first half makes sense and I believe even Calvinists would agree especially hadn't they known he was a Lutheran, the second half is straw man talk and unnecessary
- Joined
- Jul 13, 2015
- Messages
- 19,206
- Location
- Western Australia
- Gender
- Male
- Religious Affiliation
- Catholic
- Political Affiliation
- Moderate
- Marital Status
- Single
- Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
- Yes
The elect are people getting ready to receive Baptist at the Easter Vigil mass.
Andrew
Matt 18:15
- Joined
- Aug 25, 2017
- Messages
- 6,645
- Age
- 40
- Gender
- Male
- Religious Affiliation
- Christian
- Political Affiliation
- Conservative
- Marital Status
- Single
- Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
- Yes
You mean those "Easter Worshipers"?
- Joined
- Jul 13, 2015
- Messages
- 19,206
- Location
- Western Australia
- Gender
- Male
- Religious Affiliation
- Catholic
- Political Affiliation
- Moderate
- Marital Status
- Single
- Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
- Yes
You mean those "Easter Worshipers"?
Yes and amen, those who worship the Lord Jesus Christ on Easter Sunday and every Sunday as well as many other days, and when able every day of the week and every week of the year.
That's what being faithful and true witnesses to the resurrection of Jesus Christ is all about.
Andrew
Matt 18:15
- Joined
- Aug 25, 2017
- Messages
- 6,645
- Age
- 40
- Gender
- Male
- Religious Affiliation
- Christian
- Political Affiliation
- Conservative
- Marital Status
- Single
- Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
- Yes
I worship my Lord daily as a Christian, if you cant see the humiliating description your friends have labeled us well perhaps you agree as you said you do, next we will be called by the left "Fairy Tellers"Yes and amen, those who worship the Lord Jesus Christ on Easter Sunday and every Sunday as well as many other days, and when able every day of the week and every week of the year.
That's what being faithful and true witnesses to the resurrection of Jesus Christ is all about.