Did Samuel prophesy after he died?

NathanH83

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“Samuel prophesied after he had fallen asleep, and he showed the king what his end would be. He made his voice heard from the ground in prophecy to wipe out the people’s lawless behavior.”
-Sirach 46:20
 

Spindle4

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“Samuel prophesied after he had fallen asleep, and he showed the king what his end would be. He made his voice heard from the ground in prophecy to wipe out the people’s lawless behavior.”
-Sirach 46:20
There is a reason some books are excluded from the canon of 66.
 

Andrew

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Didn't the witch of endor try to conjure up his spirit or something?
 

NathanH83

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NathanH83

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atpollard

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Sirach is probably just in error (reread the Story of Lazarus and the rich man where they COULD NOT get a message back to the living).

The witch of Endor did what witches do … spoke with lying demons to deceive.


[A broken record, I know, but these sort of contradictions are why the apocryphal books are read, but not suited for doctrine. They contain errors - not 100% inspired, just occasionally inspiring to read as a story … like The Little Drummer Boy.]
 

NathanH83

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Sirach is probably just in error (reread the Story of Lazarus and the rich man where they COULD NOT get a message back to the living).

The witch of Endor did what witches do … spoke with lying demons to deceive.


[A broken record, I know, but these sort of contradictions are why the apocryphal books are read, but not suited for doctrine. They contain errors - not 100% inspired, just occasionally inspiring to read as a story … like The Little Drummer Boy.]

So you’re saying that demons can accurately prophesy future events?
 

Andrew

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Sirach is probably just in error (reread the Story of Lazarus and the rich man where they COULD NOT get a message back to the living).

The witch of Endor did what witches do … spoke with lying demons to deceive.


[A broken record, I know, but these sort of contradictions are why the apocryphal books are read, but not suited for doctrine. They contain errors - not 100% inspired, just occasionally inspiring to read as a story … like The Little Drummer Boy.]
The author refers to the spirit as Samuel, the witch later says that it was Samuel
 

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The author refers to the spirit as Samuel, the witch later says that it was Samuel
No one should trust what a witch says. As for Samuel, if it really was Samuel speaking then God intervened to give the message to Saul and used Samuel to speak to Saul. God can do things like that. However, as noted earlier about Lazarus, it is not the norm.
 

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No one should trust what a witch says. As for Samuel, if it really was Samuel speaking then God intervened to give the message to Saul and used Samuel to speak to Saul. God can do things like that. However, as noted earlier about Lazarus, it is not the norm.
Im saying that after the witch stops her session she confirms that it was Samuel speaking through her, but while Samuel was speaking the author also names him as Samuel regardless of what the witch (lying or not) later confirms to Saul. If it were a lying spirit the author would have noted that instead of naming him Samuel... does that make sense?
 

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Im saying that after the witch stops her session she confirms that it was Samuel speaking through her, but while Samuel was speaking the author also names him as Samuel regardless of what the witch (lying or not) later confirms to Saul. If it were a lying spirit the author would have noted that instead of naming him Samuel... does that make sense?

If it was a demon, then it would not have been able to accurately prophesy a future event. Neither a witch nor a demon could do that. Only a true prophet can accurately predict the future.
 

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If it was a demon, then it would not have been able to accurately prophesy a future event. Neither a witch nor a demon could do that. Only a true prophet can accurately predict the future.
Adding to the discussion of demons it should be noted they do know true stuff and do get some things right.

Jas 2:19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!

Mar 1:23-26
Now there was a man in their synagogue with an unclean spirit. And he cried out, (24) saying, "Let us alone! What have we to do with You, Jesus of Nazareth? Did You come to destroy us? I know who You are—the Holy One of God!" (25) But Jesus rebuked him, saying, "Be quiet, and come out of him!" (26) And when the unclean spirit had convulsed him and cried out with a loud voice, he came out of him.

Mar 5:6-12 When he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and worshiped Him. (7) And he cried out with a loud voice and said, "What have I to do with You, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I implore You by God that You do not torment me." (8) For He said to him, "Come out of the man, unclean spirit!" (9) Then He asked him, "What is your name?" And he answered, saying, "My name is Legion; for we are many." (10) Also he begged Him earnestly that He would not send them out of the country. (11) Now a large herd of swine was feeding there near the mountains. (12) So all the demons begged Him, saying, "Send us to the swine, that we may enter them."

Luk 4:40-41
When the sun was setting, all those who had any that were sick with various diseases brought them to Him; and He laid His hands on every one of them and healed them. (41) And demons also came out of many, crying out and saying, "You are the Christ, the Son of God!" And He, rebuking them, did not allow them to speak, for they knew that He was the Christ.

Act 16:16-18 Now it happened, as we went to prayer, that a certain slave girl possessed with a spirit of divination met us, who brought her masters much profit by fortune-telling. (17) This girl followed Paul and us, and cried out, saying, "These men are the servants of the Most High God, who proclaim to us the way of salvation." (18) And this she did for many days. But Paul, greatly annoyed, turned and said to the spirit, "I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her." And he came out that very hour.

Act 19:14-16 Also there were seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, who did so. (15) And the evil spirit answered and said, "Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?" (16) Then the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, overpowered them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.
 

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Adding to the discussion of demons it should be noted they do know true stuff and do get some things right.

Jas 2:19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!

Mar 1:23-26
Now there was a man in their synagogue with an unclean spirit. And he cried out, (24) saying, "Let us alone! What have we to do with You, Jesus of Nazareth? Did You come to destroy us? I know who You are—the Holy One of God!" (25) But Jesus rebuked him, saying, "Be quiet, and come out of him!" (26) And when the unclean spirit had convulsed him and cried out with a loud voice, he came out of him.

Mar 5:6-12 When he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and worshiped Him. (7) And he cried out with a loud voice and said, "What have I to do with You, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I implore You by God that You do not torment me." (8) For He said to him, "Come out of the man, unclean spirit!" (9) Then He asked him, "What is your name?" And he answered, saying, "My name is Legion; for we are many." (10) Also he begged Him earnestly that He would not send them out of the country. (11) Now a large herd of swine was feeding there near the mountains. (12) So all the demons begged Him, saying, "Send us to the swine, that we may enter them."

Luk 4:40-41
When the sun was setting, all those who had any that were sick with various diseases brought them to Him; and He laid His hands on every one of them and healed them. (41) And demons also came out of many, crying out and saying, "You are the Christ, the Son of God!" And He, rebuking them, did not allow them to speak, for they knew that He was the Christ.

Act 16:16-18 Now it happened, as we went to prayer, that a certain slave girl possessed with a spirit of divination met us, who brought her masters much profit by fortune-telling. (17) This girl followed Paul and us, and cried out, saying, "These men are the servants of the Most High God, who proclaim to us the way of salvation." (18) And this she did for many days. But Paul, greatly annoyed, turned and said to the spirit, "I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her." And he came out that very hour.

Act 19:14-16 Also there were seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, who did so. (15) And the evil spirit answered and said, "Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?" (16) Then the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, overpowered them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.

Remember that Moses gave the Israelites instructions on how to tell the difference between a true prophet and a false prophet.

The instructions were that a false prophet would foretell a future event, and it wouldn’t happen. But a true prophet would prophesy a future event, and it will happen. That’s how you know he’s a true prophet. Because he accurately prophesied a future event.

The only way for these instructions to work is false prophets have to be unable to accurately prophesy future events. If a false prophet can prophesy a future event accurately, then these instructions won’t work too good, will they?

And if a false prophet cannot prophesy future events, then certainly a witch or a demon can’t either.

1 Samuel 28 says that the Spirit of Samuel accurately prophesied when and where Saul would die, and who would die with him (his sons). Saul fought battles for 40 years or so. That’s many days, weeks, months, and years that Saul engaged enemy kings in battle, and didn’t die. Being able to predict the exact day Saul would die is an extremely accurate prophecy. Demons can’t do that.
 
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Spindle4

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Remember that Moses gave the Israelites instructions on how to tell the difference between a true prophet and a false prophet.

The instructions were that a false prophet would foretell a future event, and it wouldn’t happen. But a true prophet would prophesy a future event, and it will happen. That’s how you know he’s a true prophet. Because he accurately prophesied a future event.

The only way for these instructions to work is false prophets have to be unable to accurately prophesy future events. If a false prophet can prophesy a future event accurately, then these instructions won’t work too good, will they?

And if a false prophet cannot prophesy future events, then certainly a witch or a demon can’t either.

1 Samuel 28 says that the Spirit of Samuel accurately prophesied when and where Saul would die, and who would die with him (his sons). Saul fought battles for 40 years or so. That’s many days, weeks, months, and years that Saul engaged enemy kings in battle, and didn’t die. Being able to predict the exact day Saul would die is an extremely accurate prophecy. Demons can’t do that.
Highly Educated Comment On 1Samuel 28:11-14 from Believer's Bible Commentary:

28:11-14
Commentators are disagreed as to what actually happened next. Some feel that an evil spirit impersonated Samuel, while others believe that God interrupted the séance unexpectedly by allowing the real Samuel to appear. The latter is preferred for the following reasons: The medium was startled by the sudden appearance of Samuel in place of the familiar spirits with whom she was used to dealing. Also, the text specifies that it was Samuel. Finally, the spirit prophesied accurately what would happen the following day.
 

NathanH83

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Highly Educated Comment On 1Samuel 28:11-14 from Believer's Bible Commentary:

28:11-14
Commentators are disagreed as to what actually happened next. Some feel that an evil spirit impersonated Samuel, while others believe that God interrupted the séance unexpectedly by allowing the real Samuel to appear. The latter is preferred for the following reasons: The medium was startled by the sudden appearance of Samuel in place of the familiar spirits with whom she was used to dealing. Also, the text specifies that it was Samuel. Finally, the spirit prophesied accurately what would happen the following day.

“Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead.”
-Deuteronomy 18:10-11 (NIV)

“There must not be anyone among you who passes his son or daughter through fire; who practices divination, is a sign reader, fortune-teller, sorcerer, or spell caster; who converses with ghosts or spirits or communicates with the dead.”
-Deuteronomy 18:10-11 (CEB)

“There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead,”
-Deuteronomy 18:10-11 (ESV)


Three different translations here:
NIV says not to consult the dead.
CEB says not to communicate with the dead.
ESV says not to inquire of the dead.

Don’t consult, don’t communicate, don’t inquire of the dead.

If God is saying don’t do these things, then God himself is acknowledging that it is possible to do these things. Otherwise, He wouldn’t bother telling people not to do it, if it’s not actually possible to do it.

God doesn’t tell people not to do things when it’s not possible to do them.

God doesn’t tell people, “don’t take a bite out of Jupiter”. He’s not going tell people not to do that, because it’s not actually possible to do that.

God doesn’t tell people, “don’t ride the flying unicorns.” Because it’s not actually possible to do that.

God doesn’t tell people, “don’t push the Moon out of orbit, lest it mess up the tides.”
He doesn’t say not to do that, because it’s not actually possible for us to do that.

God doesn’t command people, “don’t invent a time machine and travel back in time and prevent your parents from meeting each other, lest you prevent your own birth.”
God doesn’t say not to do that, because it’s not actually possible to do that anyway.

God doesn’t command people, “don’t make a sword so sharp that it cuts through the fabric of time and space.”

God doesn’t command people, “Don’t steal Tinkerbell’s fairy dust and fly to Never Never Land.”

God doesn’t command people, “don’t turn off the Sun,” or “Don’t slide down the rainbows,” or “don’t stomp on the North star” or “Don’t feed the Mermaids.” Because it’s not actually possible to do those things.

When God commands people not to talk to the dead, He is acknowledging that it IS actually possible to communicate with the dead. That’s why He’s saying not to do it, because it’s actually possible to do it. And Saul knew it was possible to do it, which is why he sought out someone who could do it, because he knew it was possible for it to be done.

To say that this example in Samuel 28 is a one-off instance where God made it happen this time but doesn’t normally happen…that’s not consistent with the message of the Bible.

God acknowledged that the Canaanites were doing these things, and so he commanded the Israelites not to do these things.
 

Spindle4

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“Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead.”
-Deuteronomy 18:10-11 (NIV)

“There must not be anyone among you who passes his son or daughter through fire; who practices divination, is a sign reader, fortune-teller, sorcerer, or spell caster; who converses with ghosts or spirits or communicates with the dead.”
-Deuteronomy 18:10-11 (CEB)

“There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead,”
-Deuteronomy 18:10-11 (ESV)


Three different translations here:
NIV says not to consult the dead.
CEB says not to communicate with the dead.
ESV says not to inquire of the dead.

Don’t consult, don’t communicate, don’t inquire of the dead.

If God is saying don’t do these things, then God himself is acknowledging that it is possible to do these things. Otherwise, He wouldn’t bother telling people not to do it, if it’s not actually possible to do it.

God doesn’t tell people not to do things when it’s not possible to do them.

God doesn’t tell people, “don’t take a bite out of Jupiter”. He’s not going tell people not to do that, because it’s not actually possible to do that.

God doesn’t tell people, “don’t ride the flying unicorns.” Because it’s not actually possible to do that.

God doesn’t tell people, “don’t push the Moon out of orbit, lest it mess up the tides.”
He doesn’t say not to do that, because it’s not actually possible for us to do that.

God doesn’t command people, “don’t invent a time machine and travel back in time and prevent your parents from meeting each other, lest you prevent your own birth.”
God doesn’t say not to do that, because it’s not actually possible to do that anyway.

God doesn’t command people, “don’t make a sword so sharp that it cuts through the fabric of time and space.”

God doesn’t command people, “Don’t steal Tinkerbell’s fairy dust and fly to Never Never Land.”

God doesn’t command people, “don’t turn off the Sun,” or “Don’t slide down the rainbows,” or “don’t stomp on the North star” or “Don’t feed the Mermaids.” Because it’s not actually possible to do those things.

When God commands people not to talk to the dead, He is acknowledging that it IS actually possible to communicate with the dead. That’s why He’s saying not to do it, because it’s actually possible to do it. And Saul knew it was possible to do it, which is why he sought out someone who could do it, because he knew it was possible for it to be done.

To say that this example in Samuel 28 is a one-off instance where God made it happen this time but doesn’t normally happen…that’s not consistent with the message of the Bible.

God acknowledged that the Canaanites were doing these things, and so he commanded the Israelites not to do these things.
I don't believe mediums and spiritists actually call up and communicate with the actual dead, or that the witch of Endor had ever actually succeeded in doing more than invoke a familiar spirit. The context of Scriptural warnings not to consult the dead implicate the attempt rather than the deed.

Lev 19:31‘Don’t turn to those who are mediums, nor to the wizards. Don’t seek them out, to be defiled by them. I am Yahweh your God.
Isa 8:19 When they tell you, “Consult with those who have familiar spirits and with the wizards, who chirp and who mutter:” shouldn’t a people consult with their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?
Isa 29:4
You will be brought down, and will speak out of the ground. Your speech will mumble out of the dust. Your voice will be as of one who has a familiar spirit, out of the ground, and your speech will whisper out of the dust.
 

NathanH83

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I don't believe mediums and spiritists actually call up and communicate with the actual dead, or that the witch of Endor had ever actually succeeded in doing more than invoke a familiar spirit. The context of Scriptural warnings not to consult the dead implicate the attempt rather than the deed.

Lev 19:31‘Don’t turn to those who are mediums, nor to the wizards. Don’t seek them out, to be defiled by them. I am Yahweh your God.
Isa 8:19 When they tell you, “Consult with those who have familiar spirits and with the wizards, who chirp and who mutter:” shouldn’t a people consult with their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?
Isa 29:4
You will be brought down, and will speak out of the ground. Your speech will mumble out of the dust. Your voice will be as of one who has a familiar spirit, out of the ground, and your speech will whisper out of the dust.

You should re-read 1 Samuel 28 then.
I believe the Bible.
 

NathanH83

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Don’t underestimate the devil’s powers. If God says that witches and warlocks have the ability to call up the dead, then you better believe it. The worst thing you can do is underestimate your enemy’s powers.
 

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Don’t underestimate the devil’s powers. If God says that witches and warlocks have the ability to call up the dead, then you better believe it. The worst thing you can do is underestimate your enemy’s powers.
MY understanding is that if one dabbles in the occult, they are knocking on doors that may and likely will get answered.
 
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