Christ did not send me to baptize

[MennoSota]

1 Corinthians 1:17
For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
If baptism is so important for the forgiveness of sins, as some have asserted here at CH, why does Paul, inspired by God, place baptism as a lesser priority than preaching the good news of Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice for sin?

 

[Andrew]

Are you Les Feldick? lol he mentions he is teaching a class in Minnesota...
Anyway, he says that John came to baptize but Paul was sent to preach the Gospel.
Time stamp 2:15
https://youtu.be/QhDunEyPFQ4

 

[Lamb]

1 Corinthians 1:17
For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
If baptism is so important for the forgiveness of sins, as some have asserted here at CH, why does Paul, inspired by God, place baptism as a lesser priority than preaching the good news of Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice for sin?

You build a theology on a verse that does NOT say baptism is not important?

We know that Paul did baptize people because he baptized Crispus, Gaius and Stephanas with his household.

We know that one of the last things Jesus said to His disciples (book of Matthew) “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

If baptism were not important Jesus wouldn't have even brought it up.

So to conclude that baptism is not important because you misconstrue what Paul was saying is poor doctrine. Paul was sent primarily to preach but we don't know who was baptizing alongside him. Edited to add that Baptism and teaching go hand in hand and there's evidence of that throughout the NT.

 

[MennoSota]

You build a theology on a verse that does NOT say baptism is not important?

We know that Paul did baptize people because he baptized Crispus, Gaius and Stephanas with his household.

We know that one of the last things Jesus said to His disciples (book of Matthew) “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

If baptism were not important Jesus wouldn't have even brought it up.

So to conclude that baptism is not important because you misconstrue what Paul was saying is poor doctrine. Paul was sent primarily to preach but we don't know who was baptizing alongside him. Edited to add that Baptism and teaching go hand in hand and there's evidence of that throughout the NT.

First, baptism is commanded in the commission.
What we see with Paul is that the gospel is preached first, before baptism ever takes place. We see that in the commission as well.
"Go and make disciples...teaching them...then baptizing them.
There is an order. Paul seems to express this order in 1 Corinthians 1:17.
Now notice how Paul goes right into preaching the gospel immediately after verse 17.
It is the gospel that calls out to those who are elect so that they hear God's word and believe. Verses like this help us understand the means by which God works to select his children.

1 Corinthians 1:18-31 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.” Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

 

[Lamb]

First, baptism is commanded in the commission.
What we see with Paul is that the gospel is preached first, before baptism ever takes place. We see that in the commission as well.
"Go and make disciples...teaching them...then baptizing them.
There is an order. Paul seems to express this order in 1 Corinthians 1:17.
Now notice how Paul goes right into preaching the gospel immediately after verse 17.
It is the gospel that calls out to those who are elect so that they hear God's word and believe. Verses like this help us understand the means by which God works to select his children.

1 Corinthians 1:18-31 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.” Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

The Great Commission says “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

If you're going to stick with order then stick to the order Jesus gave? :rofl3:

Baptism and teaching are MEANT to be TOGETHER. Paul is not saying that baptism is of no importance and neither does he say that baptism is nothing but a symbol. That's what the teachings of man say hundreds of years later.

 

[MennoSota]

The Great Commission says “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

If you're going to stick with order then stick to the order Jesus gave? :rofl3:

Baptism and teaching are MEANT to be TOGETHER. Paul is not saying that baptism is of no importance and neither does he say that baptism is nothing but a symbol. That's what the teachings of man say hundreds of years later.

How do you make disciples without teaching them, Lamm? Did Jesus first teach his disciples or did he first baptize them?
Disciple making always comes first. We see this in Paul's comment in 1 Corinthians 1:17 and the following passage.

 

[Lamb]

How do you make disciples without teaching them, Lamm? Did Jesus first teach his disciples or did he first baptize them?
Disciple making always comes first. We see this in Paul's comment in 1 Corinthians 1:17 and the following passage.

You missed where Jesus says Baptizing and teaching.

They obviously go hand in hand.

 

[MennoSota]

You missed where Jesus says Baptizing and teaching.

They obviously go hand in hand.

I did not miss it. I observe that Jesus made disciples and taught them. He then introduced baptism.
I observe that Paul moved baptism to a position after preaching the gospel.
Baptism has its place, but it doesn't take first place.

 

[Josiah]

1 Corinthians 1:17
For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
If baptism is so important for the forgiveness of sins, as some have asserted here at CH, why does Paul, inspired by God, place baptism as a lesser priority than preaching the good news of Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice for sin?

Nowhere does the verse state, "Baptism doeth nothing."
Nowhere does it state, "Thou canst NOT baptize any unless they hath proven they hath attained an unknowable chronological age."
Nowhere does it state, "Thou canst NOT baptize unless first in chronological time they hath proven they are among the Elect."
Nowhere does it state, "Thou canst NOT baptize any unless they first hath wept at least 4 ounces of tears in repentance."
Nowhere does it state, "Thou canst NOT baptize any unless every cell of the recipients' body is fully immersed under water."


Perhaps Paul simply sees his divine ministry as that of an evangelist.


If Baptism does nothing..... I wonder why Jesus put TWO things in the Great Commission (just two.... it appears equally).... Baptism and teaching? If Baptist does what you claim it does (nothing), I wonder why it was so stressed by the Apostles, seems so important in the Book of Acts, was so critical in the life of the church from at least 69 AD until some wackidoodle Anabaptist named Tom came along and invented the Tradition you echo so constantly? Hum.

"Go and make disciples...teaching them...then baptizing them."

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Your profound disrespect for Scripture and Christ shocks me....

You not only TOTALLY deny words that all (who can read) KNOW is Scripture.... but you ALSO just CHANGE words of Scripture, correcting the Holy Spirit so that He agrees with you (and to you, thus is correct in your view).

Friend, there is to "THEN" in the text. You just disrespect God. You just disrespect Scripture. You just appoint yourself to correct what Scripture actually says.

There are words in koine Greek that mandate (or just imply) chronological order, and NONE of them appear in ANY verse where the words "baptism" or "teaching" does. YOU KNOW THAT. You just don't care. You just have so little respect for the Holy Spirit and for Scripture.

The word is "kai." You know that. It is the most generic, most general connecting word in Greek. It IN NO WAY mandates or implies chronological order. You know that. But you seem to think the Holy Spirit goofed and you gotta correct him.





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[MennoSota]

Nowhere does the verse state, "Baptism doeth nothing."
Nowhere does it state, "Thou canst NOT baptize any unless they hath proven they hath attained an unknowable chronological age."
Nowhere does it state, "Thou canst NOT baptize unless first in chronological time they hath proven they are among the Elect."
Nowhere does it state, "Thou canst NOT baptize any unless they first hath wept at least 4 ounces of tears in repentance."
Nowhere does it state, "Thou canst NOT baptize any unless every cell of the recipients' body is fully immersed under water."


Paul simply sees his divine ministry as that of an evangelist.


If Baptism does nothing..... I wonder why Jesus put TWO things in the Great Commission (just two.... it appears equally).... Baptism and teaching? If Baptist does what you claim it does (nothing), I wonder why it was so stressed by the Apostles, seems so important in the Book of Acts, was so critical in the life of the church from at least 69 AD until some wackidoodle Anabaptist named Tom came along and invented the Tradition you echo so constantly? Hum.



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Nowhere do I say "Baptism doeth nothing." Nowhere doeth it say "Baptize first and preach the gospel later."
Funny, I have provided scripture and apparently you call scripture "tradition." Perhaps your tradition is scripturally void, which causes you to miss what the Bible shares.
Do you care to discuss 1 Corinthians 1:17, Josiah, or is discussion of the Bible anathema to you?

 

[Josiah]

....Perhaps Paul simply sees his divine ministry as that of an evangelist.....


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Do you care to discuss 1 Corinthians 1:17?

Obviously, I did.


What you are persistently unwilling to do is to discuss Scripture because you are unwilling to accept Scripture. You refuse to discuss Scripture, you just demand to CHANGE Scripture. Inserting words not there.... changing words that are there.... You constantly show a profound disrespect and disregard for Scripture.

As here:

"Go and make disciples...teaching them...then baptizing them."

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You don't want to discuss the verse you quoted, you changed the focus to another verse, which you CHANGED.

Your profound disrespect for Scripture and Christ shocks me....

You not only TOTALLY deny words that all (who can read) KNOW is Scripture.... but you ALSO just CHANGE words of Scripture, correcting the Holy Spirit so that He agrees with you (and to you, thus is correct in your view).

Friend, there is to "THEN" in the text. You just disrespect God. You just disrespect Scripture. You just appoint yourself to correct what Scripture actually says.

There are words in koine Greek that mandate (or just imply) chronological order, and NONE of them appear in ANY verse where the words "baptism" or "teaching" does. YOU KNOW THAT. You just don't care. You just have so little respect for the Holy Spirit and for Scripture.

The word is "kai." You know that. It is the most generic, most general connecting word in Greek. It IN NO WAY mandates or implies chronological order. You know that. But you seem to think the Holy Spirit goofed and you gotta correct him.

You simply parrot a late, mostly-rejected Tradition invented by a radical synergist and heretic. You regard it as unaccountable. And when you bring up Scripture, you just DELETE whatever you don't like or CHANGE it so as to correct the Holy Spirit, and ADD lots of words you think the Holy Spirit forgot to put in (so you correct Him) - since all your Tradition is OBVIOUSLY missing from Scripture as you yourself PROVE but you don't give a rip because of your profound disrespect for Scripture and your embrace of these Anabaptist Traditions which you hold as unaccountable.





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[MennoSota]

I did.

What you are persistently unwilling to do is to accept Scripture. You refuse to discuss Scripture, you just demand to CHANGE Scripture. Inserting words not there.... changing words that are there.... You constantly show a profound disrespect and disregard for Scripture.

As here:




You don't want to discuss the verse you quoted, you changed the focus to another verse, which you CHANGED.

Your profound disrespect for Scripture and Christ shocks me....

You not only TOTALLY deny words that all (who can read) KNOW is Scripture.... but you ALSO just CHANGE words of Scripture, correcting the Holy Spirit so that He agrees with you (and to you, thus is correct in your view).

Friend, there is to "THEN" in the text. You just disrespect God. You just disrespect Scripture. You just appoint yourself to correct what Scripture actually says.

There are words in koine Greek that mandate (or just imply) chronological order, and NONE of them appear in ANY verse where the words "baptism" or "teaching" does. YOU KNOW THAT. You just don't care. You just have so little respect for the Holy Spirit and for Scripture.

The word is "kai." You know that. It is the most generic, most general connecting word in Greek. It IN NO WAY mandates or implies chronological order. You know that. But you seem to think the Holy Spirit goofed and you gotta correct him.

You simply parrot a late, mostly-rejected Tradition invented by a radical synergist named Tom. You regard it as unaccountable. And when you bring up Scripture, you just DELETE whatever you don't like or CHANGE it so as to correct the Holy Spirit, and ADD lots of words you think the Holy Spirit forgot to put in (so you correct Him) - since all your Tradition is OBVIOUSLY missing from Scripture as you yourself PROVE but you don't give a rip because of your profound disrespect for Scripture and your embrace of these Anabaptist Traditions which you hold as unaccountable.





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Sorry, I don't see your actual discussion of the verse. Did you hide it within your rant?

 

[Andrew]

It's impossible to receive the Holy Spirit without hearing the gospel, Les told a great anecdote about a lady who has gone to church all her life and went through all the rituals, customs and traditions... it wasn't until she joined his class to study the word that her heart was opened and she received the Spirit according to her.
He explains what Paul means by the busy body and foolishness of men who hang on to traditions but without earnest understanding of the gospel they hardly know what they even believe, very true, its our belief/faith that saves through grace and without true understanding of the gospel how can you mature? You remain a babe much like the early pagan converts in his days.. Philosophy vs Signs, Greek vs Jew, Paul refutes both by saying neither vanities will do any good.

For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
1 Corinthians 1:17-31

 

[NewCreation435]

1 Corinthians 1:17
For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
If baptism is so important for the forgiveness of sins, as some have asserted here at CH, why does Paul, inspired by God, place baptism as a lesser priority than preaching the good news of Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice for sin?

I think part of the key of it is in what Paul says in the first chapter here when he talks about divisions. People were saying that they were of one group or another. If Paul had baptized then there would be a group that divided itself by saying "I'm more of a Christian than you because I was baptized by Paul." Therefore, Paul did not baptize many people because God realized that people are like this and didn't allow him to. That's what these verses below mean to me. Being baptized by Paul would have become an issue that people boasted about it.

1 Corinthians 1:13-15
3 "Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so no one can say that you were baptized in my name."

 

[MennoSota]

I think part of the key of it is in what Paul says in the first chapter here when he talks about divisions. People were saying that they were of one group or another. If Paul had baptized then there would be a group that divided itself by saying "I'm more of a Christian than you because I was baptized by Paul." Therefore, Paul did not baptize many people because God realized that people are like this and didn't allow him to. That's what these verses below mean to me. Being baptized by Paul would have become an issue that people boasted about it.

1 Corinthians 1:13-15
3 "Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so no one can say that you were baptized in my name."

Agreed. This is why it is dangerous to lift up baptism to a mystical level that claims the sins of unrepentant, non-believers are forgiven by virtue of being baptized.
Paul did not place baptism in such a high position, precisely because it would become a work of salvation of which people would boast. I believe 1 Corinthians 1 connects perfectly to Ephesians 2:8-9.
So, baptism is a God ordained function in the church, but it comes after the proclamation and reception of the gospel.

 

[Josiah]

I think part of the key of it is in what Paul says in the first chapter here when he talks about divisions. People were saying that they were of one group or another. If Paul had baptized then there would be a group that divided itself by saying "I'm more of a Christian than you because I was baptized by Paul." Therefore, Paul did not baptize many people because God realized that people are like this and didn't allow him to. That's what these verses below mean to me. Being baptized by Paul would have become an issue that people boasted about it.

1 Corinthians 1:13-15
3 "Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so no one can say that you were baptized in my name."

I agree...

This verse has NOTHING to do with the importance of Baptism. And it CERTAINLY does NOT state, "Baptism MUST come AFTER in chronological time, the recipient has: 1) Attained a certain age that won't be disclosed, 2) Proved they are among the Elect, and 3) Proved they have adequately repented. The verse says NOTHING about that. The MOST that could be taken is that a baptism in the name of PAUL would be questioned. And there's NOTHING here that states, "Baptism is SO stressed in the NT, an equal part with teaching in The Great Commission, plays such a key role in Acts because it does nothing and isn't important."




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[MennoSota]

I agree...

This verse has NOTHING to do with the importance of Baptism. And it CERTAINLY does NOT state, "Baptism MUST come AFTER in chronological time, the recipient has: 1) Attained a certain age that won't be disclosed, 2) Proved they are among the Elect, and 3) Proved they have adequately repented. The verse says NOTHING about that. The MOST that could be taken is that a baptism in the name of PAUL would be questioned. And there's NOTHING here that states, "Baptism is SO stressed in the NT, an equal part with teaching in The Great Commission, plays such a key role in Acts because it does nothing and isn't important."




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So we agree. Baptism is not as important as preaching the gospel when it comes to unrepentant, non-believers. We don't baptize dead people.

 

[Josiah]

This verse has NOTHING to do with the importance of Baptism. And it CERTAINLY does NOT state, "Baptism MUST come AFTER in chronological time, the recipient has: 1) Attained a certain age that won't be disclosed, 2) Proved they are among the Elect, and 3) Proved they have adequately repented. The verse says NOTHING about that. The MOST that could be taken is that a baptism in the name of PAUL would be questioned. And there's NOTHING here that states, "Baptism is SO stressed in the NT, an equal part with teaching in The Great Commission, plays such a key role in Acts because it does nothing and isn't important."


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So we agree. Baptism is not as important as preaching the gospel when it comes to unrepentant, non-believers. We don't baptize dead people.

You do seem to have an enormous problem reading..... You seem to be blind to the words that are actually there, and yet see invisible words obviously not there. It's quite stunning. You do that with people, you do it most of all with Scripture.

 

[MennoSota]

You do seem to have an enormous problem reading..... You seem to be blind to the words that are actually there, and yet see invisible words obviously not there. It's quite stunning. You do that with people, you do it most of all with Scripture.

So you don't believe sharing the gospel is important if we are going to baptize people?

 

[Josiah]

This verse has NOTHING to do with the importance of Baptism. And it CERTAINLY does NOT state, "Baptism MUST come AFTER in chronological time, the recipient has: 1) Attained a certain age that won't be disclosed, 2) Proved they are among the Elect, and 3) Proved they have adequately repented. The verse says NOTHING about that. The MOST that could be taken is that a baptism in the name of PAUL would be questioned. And there's NOTHING here that states, "Baptism is SO stressed in the NT, an equal part with teaching in The Great Commission, plays such a key role in Acts because it does nothing and isn't important."


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So we agree. Baptism is not as important as preaching the gospel when it comes to unrepentant, non-believers. We don't baptize dead people.

You do seem to have an enormous problem reading..... You seem to be blind to the words that are actually there, and yet see invisible words obviously not there. It's quite stunning. You do that with people, you do it most of all with Scripture

So you don't believe sharing the gospel is important if we are going to baptize people?

You have a really big problem reading. TRY (I think you can do it), TRY reading real words that are really there. They are black and white things, formed from letters. Don't deny and ignore them and instead create invisible, fake, pretend,imaginary ghosts NOT there and based EVERYTHING on those. Try it.





EVERYONE ELSE..... read this exchange in this series of quotes. It's SO typical. More with Scripture than with people.




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