Bullying - A Necessary Evil? Part of natural selection?

[Jason76]

I beg to disagree, though, I do think some bullying is justified - primarily when dealing with OTHER bullies, and a necessary evil in the military (the DI is one). Anyway, the cultural right has gone insane over this idea that "America is becoming WIMP-ified" - memes are all over Facebook calling people snowflakes.

OK, but does bullying motivate and make people stronger? Actually in many places no. In fact, moving them OUT - makes the place a thousand times better! Anyway, in the history of resentment and conflict in the world - it can be said bullying was the instigator.

 

[psalms 91]

As one who was bullied all through school I can tell you that it has had a profound and negative impact on my life. I have no time for bullies and hope every one of them gets what is coming to them

 

[Mozzie]

I was bullied all through school to the point where i started to not go to school, i skipped school as much as i could. There have been to many young children kill themselves because opf bullying. It isn't fun, and it shouldn't be tolerated regardless

 

[tango]

I beg to disagree, though, I do think some bullying is justified - primarily when dealing with OTHER bullies, and a necessary evil in the military (the DI is one). Anyway, the cultural right has gone insane over this idea that "America is becoming WIMP-ified" - memes are all over Facebook calling people snowflakes.

OK, but does bullying motivate and make people stronger? Actually in many places no. In fact, moving them OUT - makes the place a thousand times better! Anyway, in the history of resentment and conflict in the world - it can be said bullying was the instigator.

I think a lot of the concept of calling people snowflakes is less about bullying and more about the idea that absolutely everything is offensive and that an idea we dislike can be as dangerous as a physical attack. Even then there's a world of difference between verbal abuse and simply being exposed to an idea that we might find disagreeable - not wanting to tolerate a stream of verbal abuse is a perfectly reasonable stance but if someone feels they need a "safe space" so they don't have to hear new ideas I'd have to wonder whether they are even fit for life as an adult.

I would say there is no place for bullying at all. Perhaps what a bully understands best is a superior force but there's a big difference between the concept of "peace by superior firepower" and actually bullying the bully. During my school days there was an older boy who picked on me for a time until I got sick of it and kicked him in the stomach hard enough that he doubled over. My response couldn't called be bullying - it was a single act of self-defense - but it made the point and the bullying stopped. I didn't take the opportunity to pick on him and, since he knew very well what would happen if he gave me any more grief, he stopped picking on me. I would say anyone who did what I did was justified, but to take it to the next stage and figure that he's now afraid of me and turn the tables on an ongoing basis would have made me no better than him.

 

[Josiah]

OK.... here's the thing (at least with boys).....

It's probably that whole "Alpha Male" thing.... deep in the DNA of male homo sapiens....

It's typical (but of course not universal) among brothers..... I've read and hear that often boys at puberty go through this whole thing with thei mother as if to declare: You are no longer more powerful than I.... Perhaps it's hormonal, maybe it's in our DNA.


Two thoughts....


First....

OF COURSE, no one is totally controlled by anything biological. ALL can "put a lid" on our impulses. Boys CAN be RAISED to respect others, care for others, even love others. IMO, this has to be intentional and constant and virtually from birth - but it's very doable. This was very much done in my case. I couldn't count the number of times by Dad stressed that part of what it means to be a man is to be in control of self, to be caring and giving. To this day, I recall my teenage sister commenting about her boyfriend, "I love been wrapped in his very powerful arms that would never hurt a fly." Part of being male is being manly - focused on lifting up, being constructive and caring. It's gotta be modeled and taught.


Second...


Folks need to learn how to deal with this manure. And I'm not sure exactly what that looks like. But having an inner sense of confidence and strength seems to have a lot to do with it.

My wife is now retired from teaching, but I recall her talking about this boy who CONSTANTLY was crying to her about being bullied. While a teacher can (to some extent) and should help, I could not think to myself that his whippy character is only making things worse.... at some point, he needs to get some balls. Bullys..... often...... seek out easy and non-threatening targets. Complaining about it may not be the sole (or even best) answer. I recall a friend of mine who had a big brother who once picked on him a lot. He told me that once he'd run to his mother, who's constant response was "If there's no blood, don't trouble me." Pretty harsh! I don't affirm that parenting BUT my friend seemed to convey it forced HIM to deal with the issue. And again, PART of that is having the confidence for it to roll off.... and to understand maleness as more about controlling self than others.



Sorry



- Josiah




.

 

[psalms 91]

What I understand is that bullies need to be stopped whatever that takes and not one other person should ever have to face that again

 

[Jason76]

Some bullying could be the result of people's frustration with things that can't control. In fact, such bullying could be justified, sort of. For instance, in my family, there is a lot of frustration with what one member sees as thieves and drug addicts. However, he cannot do anything about it - so he resorts to bullying and sarcasm. But honestly, people inside of a drug culture - cannot be changed by one person usually, surely preaching and then later, bullying, doesn't work.

 

[tango]

Some bullying could be the result of people's frustration with things that can't control. In fact, such bullying could be justified, sort of. For instance, in my family, there is a lot of frustration with what one member sees as thieves and drug addicts. However, he cannot do anything about it - so he resorts to bullying and sarcasm. But honestly, people inside of a drug culture - cannot be changed by one person usually, surely preaching and then later, bullying, doesn't work.

I think there's a lot of truth in the notion that bullies are themselves hurting deeply in some way and merely taking it out on someone else rather than addressing the problem. There used to be a saying "and the office boy kicked the cat", indicating that when you're dumped on the tendency is to dump on someone else. If a boy is being bullied by an older brother or father (maybe even being abused by someone who should be a role model) it's perhaps not surprising that they then inflict pain on someone weaker than themselves. Not that it's justified, and there's certainly no reason why their victim should just tolerate it, but to simply regard the bully as the strong one and the victim as the weak one risks missing the point.

Personally I have no regrets about using superior force against the people who bullied me as a teenager, even though I heard rumors (never verified one way or the other) that I left one with a concussion and I know for a fact I left one in fear for his life when he pushed me too far, because I finally snapped and fought back with enough force he couldn't rule out the possibility he was going to literally die in that room, and the people who were "on his side" had fled because they didn't want to get anywhere near me. But whereas the bully who is put in his place by the victim who fights back probably just goes on to choose a different, weaker victim until they find someone who won't fight back (or exploit the system so that a ridiculous anti-bully policy punishes the victim for fighting back while ignoring the real problem), perhaps if there could be something better in place it would solve the problem at its root rather than by trying to cut off the branches.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

My wife is now retired from teaching, but I recall her talking about this boy who CONSTANTLY was crying to her about being bullied. While a teacher can (to some extent) and should help, I could not think to myself that his whippy character is only making things worse.... at some point, he needs to get some balls. Bullys..... often...... seek out easy and non-threatening targets. Complaining about it may not be the sole (or even best) answer. I recall a friend of mine who had a big brother who once picked on him a lot. He told me that once he'd run to his mother, who's constant response was "If there's no blood, don't trouble me." Pretty harsh! I don't affirm that parenting BUT my friend seemed to convey it forced HIM to deal with the issue. And again, PART of that is having the confidence for it to roll off.... and to understand maleness as more about controlling self than others.

Boys "cry" about being bullied because, in their mind, it's a truth that needs to be addressed. I had a school counselor who gave me a response similar to the throw-away advice seen above ("maybe you have something to do with it"). Yes, Mr. Counselor, I relish every day that some kid with nothing better to do just comes alongside me and gives me a good push. Maybe all I need is to "get some balls". Eventually, this person wasn't really my concern as he moved between his mom and dad's homes (they were divorced, I suppose). The last time I recall seeing the guy he gave me a menacing look and said "hey, I'll see you later!!" My response was "for sure! How's it going?" which caught him totally off guard and I didn't have an issue with him after that. But prior to that it was an issue. This kid did not let up, and he was one of many. And, yeah, I bought into it. But it doesn't give him a 'pass' nor does it mean I need to get some balls. What it means is that someone other than me needed to address this punk because what I was doing wasn't working.

The funny thing is that you never know what will get you respect later on. There were a couple of guys who let me have it pretty good through high school. One guy was a bit of a Nazi skinhead (no joke) and he turned to me with his anger when I guess he had nothing better to do. Later on, I knew he was a member of a specific "club" of like-minded individuals. Well, these individuals were at a show that a friend and I attended. I sought out the guy who gave me a rough time in school and shared a beer with him. Another guy I met in similar circumstances. Again, shared a beer and made apologies.

But that's what grown-up's do (except becoming Nazi skin-heads! ) - they make the peace. But for a kid who wasn't necessarily close with his brother at the time, dealing with anxiety that was seen as just being temperamental, and dealing with health issues that weren't recognized until later (mini-seizures that messed with my cognitive functioning) I found it tough to "get some balls"

 

[tango]

"Get some balls" doesn't really work when it's the advice given to the scrawny kid who's being picked on by the school wrestling champion. That was one advantage I had when I finally fought back - I was much bigger than the kid bullying me so when I did finally snap he didn't stand a chance. When he realised that he not only stopped bullying me but from what I could tell he eased off a lot of other people too, presumably because he came to see just how badly it might end for him. Had roles been reversed, who knows how that would have ended.

 

[Jason76]

Do you all feel this gym franchise's stance against bullying is softness?

https://www.t-nation.com/opinion/planet-fitness-nightmare

I think they're making a good move kicking the bullies and/or show-offs out.

 

[Josiah]

"Get some balls" doesn't really work when it's the advice given to the scrawny kid who's being picked on by the school wrestling champion. That was one advantage I had when I finally fought back - I was much bigger than the kid bullying me so when I did finally snap he didn't stand a chance. When he realised that he not only stopped bullying me but from what I could tell he eased off a lot of other people too, presumably because he came to see just how badly it might end for him. Had roles been reversed, who knows how that would have ended.

Valid....


But two points:

1. "Having balls" doesn't necessarily mean fighting back; it may mean confidence and self-esteem so that such has little impact. I think often bullys look for the one who will be most impacted by it.

2. I mean this too as simply the alternative to running to mommie (or the teacher or whoever plays this role for them). It seems to ME, this only makes the kid seem more vulnerable, more weak, and more obvious a target. Bully's SOMETIMES are actually people of low esteem who hope to pick themselves up by putting others down... but they need an easy target who even they an succeed in destroying.

But I realize and appreciate, some bully's are not to be limited. I think we need to better parent both them AND their targets. It's not all one-sided.

 

[tango]

Valid....


But two points:

1. "Having balls" doesn't necessarily mean fighting back; it may mean confidence and self-esteem so that such has little impact. I think often bullys look for the one who will be most impacted by it.

2. I mean this too as simply the alternative to running to mommie (or the teacher or whoever plays this role for them). It seems to ME, this only makes the kid seem more vulnerable, more weak, and more obvious a target. Bully's SOMETIMES are actually people of low esteem who hope to pick themselves up by putting others down... but they need an easy target who even they an succeed in destroying.

But I realize and appreciate, some bully's are not to be limited. I think we need to better parent both them AND their targets. It's not all one-sided.

A lot depends on the nature of the bullying. If it's a bit of name-calling perhaps a good option is to just ignore it. When it turns physical that's a very different game. The incident that caused me to finally snap and leave the guy bullying me terrified was when I faced what I saw as a real physical threat. I really couldn't say what it was that made that incident different from any others but something inside snapped and I just went for the ringleader with everything, which was dangerous to him since I was bigger than him and at that precise point my goal was to stop the threat by whatever means necessary.

Running to an adult to solve every little dispute is a good sign of being unable to cope with everything. As with so much else, the devil is in the detail and there's a difference between the person who might best be described as a snowflake who wants Mummy to deal with every little incident they ever encounter, and the child who is being mercilessly bullied and is seekng help. The trouble is that the bullies are usually good at working the system so it looks like they aren't doing anything wrong, or that they are misunderstood, or that they were only fooling around and didn't mean any harm, or whatever else. And then as soon as the adult is gone the bullying starts again. The trouble is if things stray too far you get a generation of snowflakes who can't even handle a disagreement, and if things stray too far the other way you get kids taking guns to school to solve the problem once and for all.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

1. "Having balls" doesn't necessarily mean fighting back; it may mean confidence and self-esteem so that such has little impact. I think often bullys look for the one who will be most impacted by it.

Well, obviously. If confidence and self-esteem (self-worth, actually, is more valuable) is lacking, what would be a suggestion to build those up? And how would you respond to those who might think that fighting back at times may be a necessary evil? I think of 'Ralphie' in "A Christmas Story" as an example.

2. I mean this too as simply the alternative to running to mommie (or the teacher or whoever plays this role for them).

Is there another way you can phrase this? If a child or adolescent is being bullied, and turns to someone for help, they're asking fore help, not "running to mommie" and (tbh) I really resent the phrase.

It seems to ME, this only makes the kid seem more vulnerable, more weak, and more obvious a target.

To whom; the bully, you, or both?

Bully's SOMETIMES are actually people of low esteem who hope to pick themselves up by putting others down... but they need an easy target who even they an succeed in destroying.

And those being bullied volunteer for this how?

I think we need to better parent both them AND their targets.

Sounds a bit subjective - can you clarify how?

It's not all one-sided.

Who carries the greater burden?

 

[ValleyGal]

Wait... let's think about the bully for a minute. Where does bullying come from? My thinking is it comes from a few places, like seeing the family dynamics and figuring who is modeling the bullying behaviour. Shouldn't we also explore that if bullying behaviour is modeled at home, it would indicate that the bully lives in a very emotionally dysregulated home environment. Stressful. I'd be curious what other stressors are happening in the home, such as biological stressors (growing pains, hormone changes, medical issues, etc), maybe some emotional stressors (maybe being bullied by someone bigger than them, or watching it in the home, or having other emotional issues going on like not being able to identify how they are feeling), mental/cognitive stressors (too many expectations on them to perform, failing or falling behind in school, etc), social stressors (family dynamics, inability to make and keep friends, peer pressures), or prosocial stressors (inability to empathize, delayed character development, etc). Maybe bullying needs to be reframed as a dysregulated state that a person can't cope with, and taking it out on others is actually his or her way of saying "I need someone to co-regulate with me because I can't cope right now!"

And the one being bullied who goes and repeatedly seeks out help from the teacher is not just a wimpified kid who needs to grow a pair, but rather a dysregulated child who is also reaching out to an adult, and saying "a stressful social situation is happening and I don't know how to regulate. Will you co-regulate me so I am able to learn how to self-regulate in this situation?"

NO amount of bullying is justified, and all bullying behaviour needs to be reframed so the bully is not labeled as a bully, but rather is taught how to regulate him or herself in the face of stressors that they can't cope with. And a wimpy child is not a wimpy child, but needs to be reframed as a child who needs someone to co-regulate because they don't get enough co-regulation at home.

Anti-bullying campaigns and programs don't work. That's a proven fact. Teaching empathy is not working. So it's time to start looking at the reason why children really start using aggressive behaviours.

 

[tango]

A lot would depend on the circumstance of the bullied child and the nature of the bullying. I'm not sure why the class bully got me in his sights, unless he figured I wasn't one who was likely to fight back. He learned (the hard way) that I don't tend to fight back but if you push me too far you'll get little if any warning before I fight back far more aggressively than you might expect. I was lucky to be big enough to effectively fight back with enough force it made the point very quickly (and also being a straight-A student meant I wasn't the low-performing troublemaker who suddenly seemed to be in the midst of more trouble). Seeking help isn't necessarily anything to do with an ability to self-regulate - it can potentially be nothing more than a desire to be protected from physical harm.

Sometimes even trying to define what is and is not acceptable is difficult to impossible. Running to the teacher saying "waaaaah, he called me a nasty name" is clearly a situation where the aggrieved child might be encouraged to, for want of a better phrase, "grow a pair and deal with it". But what if the entire class is turning against someone? It might not cause physical harm but the emotional and psychological damage can be huge. Yet at the same time nobody can be forced to like another person and the kind of person who becomes the ringleader of that sort of thing is most likely clever enough to frame the situation as "hey, we just don't like that kid, are you saying we have to include someone we don't like in our gatherings?".

I agree that the anti-bullying grandstanding does more harm than good, usually because the bullies figure out how to play the system so that when their victim suddenly fights back they are punished and the bully suddenly becomes the "victim".

 

[Jason76]

I agree that the anti-bullying grandstanding does more harm than good, usually because the bullies figure out how to play the system so that when their victim suddenly fights back they are punished and the bully suddenly becomes the "victim".

Bullies think they're victim, lol - because they think society has gotten soft - and is persecuting straight white males. :yawning:

Sometimes even trying to define what is and is not acceptable is difficult to impossible. Running to the teacher saying "waaaaah, he called me a nasty name" is clearly a situation where the aggrieved child might be encouraged to, for want of a better phrase, "grow a pair and deal with it". But what if the entire class is turning against someone? It might not cause physical harm but the emotional and psychological damage can be huge.

That seems to be the case - more than not. Pretty much, kids - even as late as college - blacklist certain people they hate.

Anti-bullying campaigns and programs don't work. That's a proven fact. Teaching empathy is not working. So it's time to start looking at the reason why children really start using aggressive behaviours.

The problem is that the culture in a kid's home is often pro-bullying. Well, I did mention the whole "white identity politics" thing. OK, in other cases, the kids are just mean, I mean, non-white kids harshly bully also. OK, well, I think the reason is that - also in those cultures, cultural conservatism runs high - even if economically they are liberal.

 

[tango]

Bullies think they're victim, lol - because they think society has gotten soft - and is persecuting straight white males. :yawning:

Huh? What have straight white males got to do with anything? Bullies come from all sections of society.

That seems to be the case - more than not. Pretty much, kids - even as late as college - blacklist certain people they hate.

And that's just the way things are and will never change. If you just don't like someone, why should you be expected to hang out with them? And so the victim of the day is utterly isolated because, it turns out, nobody particularly likes them.

The problem is that the culture in a kid's home is often pro-bullying. Well, I did mention the whole "white identity politics" thing. OK, in other cases, the kids are just mean, I mean, non-white kids harshly bully also. OK, well, I think the reason is that - also in those cultures, cultural conservatism runs high - even if economically they are liberal.

I'm not sure what "white identity politics" have to do with it.

 

[psalms 91]

Huh? What have straight white males got to do with anything? Bullies come from all sections of society.



And that's just the way things are and will never change. If you just don't like someone, why should you be expected to hang out with them? And so the victim of the day is utterly isolated because, it turns out, nobody particularly likes them.



I'm not sure what "white identity politics" have to do with it.

That second statement, I had friends, I would have much preferred to be ignored rather than tortured daily

 

[tango]

That second statement, I had friends, I would have much preferred to be ignored rather than tortured daily

Sure, although being endlessly ostracized can do serious emotional damage to someone, particularly in this day and age where every single gathering that everyone except you got invited to is all over social media.