Artificial contraception, history and scripture

MoreCoffee

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The BBC web site offers this introduction to the subject of this thread.
Introduction

Christian ideas about contraception come from church teachings rather than scripture, as the Bible has little to say about the subject. As a result, their teachings on birth control are often based on different Christian interpretations of the meaning of marriage, sex and the family.

Christian acceptance of contraception is relatively new; all churches disapproved of artificial contraception until the start of the 20th century.

In modern times different Christian churches hold different views about the rightness and wrongness of using birth control.

Liberal Protestant churches often teach that it is acceptable to use birth control, as long as it is not used to encourage or permit promiscuous behaviour.

Less liberal churches only approve the use of contraception for people who are married to each other.

Since these churches regard sex outside marriage as morally wrong (or if not wrong, as less than good), they believe that abstaining from sex would be morally better than having sex and using birth control.

More conservative churches suggest that contraception should be limited to married couples who are using it to regulate the size and spacing of their family. They often teach that using contraception to prevent children altogether is not desirable.

The Roman Catholic Church only allows 'natural' birth control, by which it means only having sex during the infertile period of a woman's monthly cycle. Artificial methods of contraception are banned.

Thus the only way for a Catholic couple to be faithful to the Church's teachings on human sexuality and to avoid having children is to use 'natural' family planning. Many Catholics have decided to disobey church teaching in this part of their lives, causing a substantial breach between laity and the Church establishment.

On how the holy scriptures touch on the subject the BBC offers this.
The Bible and contraception

Two parts of the Bible are often quoted to show God's disapproval of birth control:

First, God commanded his people to "Be fruitful and multiply," and contraception is seen as specifically flouting this instruction.
Second, Onan was killed by God for "spilling his seed," which is often taken as divine condemnation of coitus interruptus.

The first of these examples is normally rebutted by demonstrating that contraception has not prevented human beings from being fruitful and multiplying.

There are at least two interpretations of the second example:

God may have been angry with Onan for having sex for a purpose other than having children
this interpretation supports the idea that contraception is morally wrong
it also supports the idea that there is only one kind of morally good sexual act: sex between a man and a woman who are married and who are having sex to produce children
God may not have been angry with Onan for preventing conception but for failing to honour a commandment to produce a child with his dead brother's wife
but this interpretation has no application to modern cultures or morality
the act that Jewish law required Onan to perform would nowadays be regarded as rape, since the widow's consent was not required - and this makes the story a very dubious foundation for moral argument

Scripture in favour of contraception

The Bible never explicitly approves of contraception.

However, there are a number of passages where the Bible appears to accept that sex should be enjoyed for other reasons than the production of children, and some people argue that this implies that no wrong is done if a couple have sex with the intention of not having children.

I selected the BBC web site because it is sober and not specifically Catholic. Whatever one's opinions and practises may be the history of Christian teaching on the matter is that artificial contraception was rejected by Christians until the beginning of the 20th century.
History of Christian attitudes

For most of the last 2000 years all Christian churches have been against artificial birth control.

In the first centuries of Christianity, contraception (and abortion) were regarded as wrong because they were associated with paganism or with heretics such as the Gnostics, the Manichees and, in the middle ages, the Cathars.

Protestant attitudes to birth control began to change in the 19th century as theologians became more willing to accept that morality should come from the conscience of each individual rather than from outside teachings.

Another influence was the churches' changing attitude to sex.

Instead of seeing sex as something rather dangerous, many Christians began to regard sex as one of God's great gifts. Sex was a force that could preserve the institution of marriage if couples didn't feel threatened by the possibility of having children they could not support.

Influenced by this, the Protestant churches concluded that as the use of birth control often led to stronger families and better marriages, churches should let believers use birth control as their own consciences dictated.

This change came slowly - as late as 1908 the Lambeth Conference of the Anglican Church stated that birth control "cannot be spoken of without repugnance," and denounced it as "demoralising to character and hostile to national welfare."

But the Anglicans were the first church to issue a statement in favour of contraception, which they did at the Lambeth Conference in 1930 by a majority of 193 to 67. A group of American Protestants followed in 1931.

Nowadays most Protestant denominations permit artificial birth control to some extent.

The history of modern Roman Catholic thinking on the subject is dealt with in the Roman Catholic pages.
 

Josiah

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all churches disapproved of artificial contraception until the start of the 20th century.

Prove it.

Quote for us official statements from every church that existed since 33 AD showing all of them disapproving of contraconception.

We'll go through each statement and see if this quote has any truthfulness to it or should be ignored as just a chain of falsehoods.... But we'll start at the top. Prove this first claim, and if you can, we'll proceed to the next.



- Josiah
 

MoreCoffee

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Prove it.
Quote for us official statements from every church that existed since 33 AD showing all of them disapproving of conception.
We'll go through each statement and see if this quote has any truthfulness to it or should be ignored as just a chain of falsehoods.... But we'll start at the top. Prove this first claim, and if you can, we'll proceed to the next.
Josiah

The holy scriptures contain this story:
It happened at that time that Judah went down from his brothers, and turned in to a certain Adullamite, whose name was Hirah. There Judah saw the daughter of a certain Canaanite whose name was Shua; he married her and went in to her, and she conceived and bore a son, and he called his name Er. Again she conceived and bore a son, and she called his name Onan. Yet again she bore a son, and she called his name Shelah. She was in Chezib when she bore him. And Judah took a wife for Er his first-born, and her name was Tamar.

But Er, Judah's first-born, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him. Then Judah said to Onan,
"Go in to your brother's wife, and perform the duty of a brother-in-law to her, and raise up offspring for your brother."​
But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so when he went in to his brother's wife he spilled the semen on the ground, lest he should give offspring to his brother. And what he did was displeasing in the sight of the LORD, and he slew him also.


Then Judah said to Tamar his daughter-in-law, "Remain a widow in your father's house, till Shelah my son grows up"--for he feared that he would die, like his brothers. So Tamar went and dwelt in her father's house. In course of time the wife of Judah, Shua's daughter, died; and when Judah was comforted, he went up to Timnah to his sheepshearers, he and his friend Hirah the Adullamite. And when Tamar was told, "Your father-in-law is going up to Timnah to shear his sheep," she put off her widow's garments, and put on a veil, wrapping herself up, and sat at the entrance to Enaim, which is on the road to Timnah; for she saw that Shelah was grown up, and she had not been given to him in marriage. When Judah saw her, he thought her to be a harlot, for she had covered her face. He went over to her at the road side, and said, "Come, let me come in to you," for he did not know that she was his daughter-in-law. She said, "What will you give me, that you may come in to me?" He answered, "I will send you a kid from the flock." And she said, "Will you give me a pledge, till you send it?" He said, "What pledge shall I give you?" She replied, "Your signet and your cord, and your staff that is in your hand." So he gave them to her, and went in to her, and she conceived by him. Then she arose and went away, and taking off her veil she put on the garments of her widowhood. When Judah sent the kid by his friend the Adullamite, to receive the pledge from the woman's hand, he could not find her. And he asked the men of the place, "Where is the harlot who was at Enaim by the wayside?" And they said, "No harlot has been here." So he returned to Judah, and said, "I have not found her; and also the men of the place said, 'No harlot has been here.'" And Judah replied, "Let her keep the things as her own, lest we be laughed at; you see, I sent this kid, and you could not find her." About three months later Judah was told, "Tamar your daughter-in-law has played the harlot; and moreover she is with child by harlotry." And Judah said, "Bring her out, and let her be burned." As she was being brought out, she sent word to her father-in-law, "By the man to whom these belong, I am with child." And she said, "Mark, I pray you, whose these are, the signet and the cord and the staff." Then Judah acknowledged them and said, "She is more righteous than I, inasmuch as I did not give her to my son Shelah." And he did not lie with her again. When the time of her delivery came, there were twins in her womb. And when she was in labor, one put out a hand; and the midwife took and bound on his hand a scarlet thread, saying, "This came out first." But as he drew back his hand, behold, his brother came out; and she said, "What a breach you have made for yourself!" Therefore his name was called Perez. Afterward his brother came out with the scarlet thread upon his hand; and his name was called Zerah.
Genesis 38:1-30
Christians have historically read this story as condemning actions that are designed to prevent pregnancy.

The Pulpit Commentary Edited by the Very Rev. H. D. M. Spence, D.D., and by the Rev. Joseph S. Exell, M.A. says:
Gen 38:7
And Er, Judah’s firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the Lord. The connection between Er’s name (עֵר) and Er’s character (רַע) is noticeable. The special form which his wickedness assumed is not stated; but the accompanying phrase suggests that, as in the case of the Sodomites (Gen 13:13; Gen 19:5), it was some unnatural abomination. And the Lord slew him—literally, caused him to die; not necessarily by direct visitation; perhaps simply by allowing him to reap the fruits of his youthful indulgence in premature and childless death, which yet was so rapid and so evidently entailed by his evil courses as immediately to suggest the punitive hand of God.

Gen 38:8
And Judah said unto Onan (obviously after a sufficient interval), Go in unto thy brother’s wife, and marry her,—literally, and perform the part of levir, or husband’s brother, to her. The language seems to imply that what was afterwards in the code Mosaic known as the Lex Leviratus (Deu 25:5, Deu 25:6) was at this time a recognized custom. The existence of the practice has been traced in different frames among Indians, Persians, and other nations of Asia and Africa—and raise up seed to thy brother. As afterwards explained in the Hebrew legislation, the first. born son of such a Levirate marriage became in the eye of the law the child of the deceased husband, and was regarded as his heir.

Gen 38:9, Gen 38:10
And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when—literally, and it was if, i.e. whenever—he went in unto his brother’s wife, that he spilled it on the ground (literally, destroyed to the ground), lest that he should (or, so as not to) give seed to his brother. And the thing which he did displeased (literally, was evil in the eyes of) the Lord:—the word Jehovah is employed not because the writer was a late interpolator, but because the sin of Onan was an offence against the sanctity and prosperity of the theocratic family (Hengstenberg)—wherefore he (i.e. Jehovah) slew him also (vide supra).
 
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JRT

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When it comes to a consideration of the "sin of Onan" it is necessary to have some contextual background. We must realize, that at that point in history, it was believed that the father, and the father only, contributed what we would today call the genetic make up of the child. What they called the "male seed" was regarded as containing an entire nascent human being. As a consequence, they regarded any wastage of the seed as tantamount to murder. This explains why masturbation, coitus interuptus and even wet dreams were considered to be serious sins. The role of the woman was solely that of providing the warm nurturing environment for the developing child. She had no genetic contribution to make. This understanding persisted in one form of another until just a few centuries ago when the development of the microscope led to the discovery of the male sperm and then decades later the female egg. So Onan's sin was twofold: refusing to do his duty to impregnate his brother's wodow and the murder of his "seed" by refusing to plant it properly.
 

Josiah

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Josiah said:
MoreCoffee said:

all churches disapproved of artificial contraception until the start of the 20th century.


Prove it.

Quote for us official statements from every church that existed since 33 AD showing all of them disapproving of contraconception.

We'll go through each statement and see if this quote has any truthfulness to it or should be ignored as just a chain of falsehoods.... But we'll start at the top. Prove this first claim, and if you can, we'll proceed to the next.




- Josiah


The holy scriptures contain this story:
It happened at that time that Judah went down from his brothers, and turned in to a certain Adullamite, whose name was Hirah. There Judah saw the daughter of a certain Canaanite whose name was Shua; he married her and went in to her, and she conceived and bore a son, and he called his name Er. Again she conceived and bore a son, and she called his name Onan. Yet again she bore a son, and she called his name Shelah. She was in Chezib when she bore him. And Judah took a wife for Er his first-born, and her name was Tamar.

But Er, Judah's first-born, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him. Then Judah said to Onan,
"Go in to your brother's wife, and perform the duty of a brother-in-law to her, and raise up offspring for your brother."​
But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so when he went in to his brother's wife he spilled the semen on the ground, lest he should give offspring to his brother. And what he did was displeasing in the sight of the LORD, and he slew him also.


Then Judah said to Tamar his daughter-in-law, "Remain a widow in your father's house, till Shelah my son grows up"--for he feared that he would die, like his brothers. So Tamar went and dwelt in her father's house. In course of time the wife of Judah, Shua's daughter, died; and when Judah was comforted, he went up to Timnah to his sheepshearers, he and his friend Hirah the Adullamite. And when Tamar was told, "Your father-in-law is going up to Timnah to shear his sheep," she put off her widow's garments, and put on a veil, wrapping herself up, and sat at the entrance to Enaim, which is on the road to Timnah; for she saw that Shelah was grown up, and she had not been given to him in marriage. When Judah saw her, he thought her to be a harlot, for she had covered her face. He went over to her at the road side, and said, "Come, let me come in to you," for he did not know that she was his daughter-in-law. She said, "What will you give me, that you may come in to me?" He answered, "I will send you a kid from the flock." And she said, "Will you give me a pledge, till you send it?" He said, "What pledge shall I give you?" She replied, "Your signet and your cord, and your staff that is in your hand." So he gave them to her, and went in to her, and she conceived by him. Then she arose and went away, and taking off her veil she put on the garments of her widowhood. When Judah sent the kid by his friend the Adullamite, to receive the pledge from the woman's hand, he could not find her. And he asked the men of the place, "Where is the harlot who was at Enaim by the wayside?" And they said, "No harlot has been here." So he returned to Judah, and said, "I have not found her; and also the men of the place said, 'No harlot has been here.'" And Judah replied, "Let her keep the things as her own, lest we be laughed at; you see, I sent this kid, and you could not find her." About three months later Judah was told, "Tamar your daughter-in-law has played the harlot; and moreover she is with child by harlotry." And Judah said, "Bring her out, and let her be burned." As she was being brought out, she sent word to her father-in-law, "By the man to whom these belong, I am with child." And she said, "Mark, I pray you, whose these are, the signet and the cord and the staff." Then Judah acknowledged them and said, "She is more righteous than I, inasmuch as I did not give her to my son Shelah." And he did not lie with her again. When the time of her delivery came, there were twins in her womb. And when she was in labor, one put out a hand; and the midwife took and bound on his hand a scarlet thread, saying, "This came out first." But as he drew back his hand, behold, his brother came out; and she said, "What a breach you have made for yourself!" Therefore his name was called Perez. Afterward his brother came out with the scarlet thread upon his hand; and his name was called Zerah.
Genesis 38:1-30
Christians have historically read this story as condemning actions that are designed to prevent pregnancy.

The Pulpit Commentary Edited by the Very Rev. H. D. M. Spence, D.D., and by the Rev. Joseph S. Exell, M.A. says:
Gen 38:7
And Er, Judah’s firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the Lord. The connection between Er’s name (עֵר) and Er’s character (רַע) is noticeable. The special form which his wickedness assumed is not stated; but the accompanying phrase suggests that, as in the case of the Sodomites (Gen 13:13; Gen 19:5), it was some unnatural abomination. And the Lord slew him—literally, caused him to die; not necessarily by direct visitation; perhaps simply by allowing him to reap the fruits of his youthful indulgence in premature and childless death, which yet was so rapid and so evidently entailed by his evil courses as immediately to suggest the punitive hand of God.

Gen 38:8
And Judah said unto Onan (obviously after a sufficient interval), Go in unto thy brother’s wife, and marry her,—literally, and perform the part of levir, or husband’s brother, to her. The language seems to imply that what was afterwards in the code Mosaic known as the Lex Leviratus (Deu 25:5, Deu 25:6) was at this time a recognized custom. The existence of the practice has been traced in different frames among Indians, Persians, and other nations of Asia and Africa—and raise up seed to thy brother. As afterwards explained in the Hebrew legislation, the first. born son of such a Levirate marriage became in the eye of the law the child of the deceased husband, and was regarded as his heir.

Gen 38:9, Gen 38:10
And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when—literally, and it was if, i.e. whenever—he went in unto his brother’s wife, that he spilled it on the ground (literally, destroyed to the ground), lest that he should (or, so as not to) give seed to his brother. And the thing which he did displeased (literally, was evil in the eyes of) the Lord:—the word Jehovah is employed not because the writer was a late interpolator, but because the sin of Onan was an offence against the sanctity and prosperity of the theocratic family (Hengstenberg)—wherefore he (i.e. Jehovah) slew him also (vide supra).


Well, that was a lot of entirely unrelated words having nothing to do with my question or your post.....


Here's claim # 1 of your post:
MoreCoffee said:
all churches disapproved of artificial contraception until the start of the 20th century.


Here's the response which you entirely, wholly, completely ignored:

Josiah said:
Prove it. Quote for us official statements from every church that existed since 33 AD showing all of them disapproving of contraconception. We'll go through each statement and see if this quote has any truthfulness to it or should be ignored as just a chain of falsehoods.... But we'll start at the top. Prove this first claim, and if you can, we'll proceed to the next.


,


When you show the first claim to be true, we can then consider the next. But if this is a bunch of falsehood, why spend our time on it?



- Josiah
 

psalms 91

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Well, that was a lot of entirely unrelated words having nothing to do with my question or your post.....


Here's claim # 1 of your post:



Here's the response which you entirely, wholly, completely ignored:




When you show the first claim to be true, we can then consider the next. But if this is a bunch of falsehood, why spend our time on it?



- Josiah
I have no idea if a church had a position on abortion back then since it was unthinkable. Yes, in our time it existed but people still were aghast at anyone who would claim to have one. Common sense and decency should tell us that that was the position of the vast majority of people and churchs as well. Maybe MC can provide facts that I dont have but weither way I see what he said
 

Josiah

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Maybe MC can provide facts that I dont have but weither way I see what he said

We'll see if he has any evidence for the truthfulness of this claim..... so far, he's offering NOTHING. And if the first claim is false, should we consider the rest?

But I think we should be patient. There have been millions and millions of churches since 33 AD (there's well over one million just currently just in the USA) so he has a LOT of documentation work to do. Just for this first claim of his (it gets worse with some of the following ones). Let's give him time.
 

MoreCoffee

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Isn't holy scripture a fact?

Anyway, the proof is in the practise. I know of no churches that taught in favour of using artificial contraception until recent centuries. The 20th and 21st centuries specifically.

The BBC source quoted in the original post for this thread gives a broad outline of church history on this matter.

I am too lazy to google what you can google for yourself, but I'll make one search and show some results here.
Christian views on contraception - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_contraception
Prior to the 20th century, contraception was generally condemned by all three major branches ... The Catholic position on contraception was formally explained and expressed by Pope Paul VI's Humanae vitae in 1968. .... Some Orthodox Christians, like Roman Catholics, do not only consider using contraceptives a sin, but ...
What does the Catholic Church teach about birth control? - EWTN Home
https://www.ewtn.com/library/MARRIAGE/CCLBC.TXT
Does the Church teach that the unnatural or artificial means of birth control are .... has been taught with such unanimity and constancy throughout the centuries, ...
[PDF]Birth Control and the Catholic Church - Digital Commons @ IWU
digitalcommons.iwu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1099&context=rev
Church doctrine regarding the body and contraception. Environmental ..... brought up actions sanctioned by the Catholic Church throughout history, which are ...
The Church of England view on contraception
https://www.churchofengland.org/our-views/medical-ethics.../contraception.aspx
Apr 8, 2008 - RC teaching says only natural birth control is allowed. ... thinking of the Church on this subject changed substantially during the 20th century.
An Introduction to Church Teaching on Contraception - HLI ...
https://www.hli.org/.../introduction-church-teaching-contraception-hli-educational-ser...
Most Catholics reject the Church's teaching on contraception not because they've ... This teaching dates back many centuries, but was reiterated and expanded in Pope ... Despite what most people hear about Church teaching through other ...
Catechism of the Catholic Church - The sixth commandment
www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm
The tradition of the Church has understood the sixth commandment as .... It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. ... By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of .... reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife is overlaid, through contraception, ...
How the Vatican Almost Embraced Birth Control – Mother Jones
www.motherjones.com/politics/2010/05/catholic-church-vatican-bishops-birth-control
The Vatican's position on birth control has long held something of a paradox: Catholics are ... This may have made some theological sense in the first century of Christianity, when ... Catholics rejoiced, and many began using the pill at once.
Moderate Roman Catholic Position on Contraception and Abortion
www.religiousconsultation.org/.../moderate_RC_position_on_contraception_abortion....
If we lost our personal history through amnesia, we would not even know who we ... To ease this crisis, the church in the middle ages provided for "oblation. ... Catholic teaching on contraception and abortion has been anything but consistent.
History of Church teaching on abortion - Liberals like Christ
liberalslikechrist.org/Catholic/abortionteaching.html
If anybody has taken the Catholic Church's objections to birth-control .... in the underdeveloped parts of the world throughout history as well as today, and it is ...
Birth Control | Catholic Answers
https://www.catholic.com/tract/birth-control
Soon the Anglican church completely caved in, allowing contraception across the ... Today, the Catholic Church alone proclaims the historic Christian position on ... In some centuries, even condoms were used (though made out of animal skin ...
Searches related to church teaching on contraception through the centuries
 

hedrick

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Prove it.

Quote for us official statements from every church that existed since 33 AD showing all of them disapproving of contraconception.
The claim was broad enough that it would be hard to prove 100%. But as far as I can tell it's actually true that Christianity generally objected to non-procreative sex until recently.

There are both good and bad reasons for this.
* In ancient times this was a genuinely feminist position. Both abortion and contraception were dangerous, and commonly forced on women.
* In the West, Augstine's view of sex seemed to see it as beneath humans, justified primarily by procreation.

Today those reasons are not convincing to some of us. I think Scripture supports multiple purposes for sex, and that deciding on reasonable limits to family size is fine for Christians. Orthodox, who don't have the remnants of Augustine, have backed off the previous unified position. (By that I mean that the current Orthodox position is mixed.) The passages typically quoted from Scripture don't seem sufficient to justify the positions, and indeed I believe the positions are mostly traditional. This isn't terrible -- Jesus gave the Church the authority to decide issues he hadn't given specific instructions on. I don't object to the Church having done so. I just don't think the decisions on this topic are unchangeable.

The Catholic position is pretty clear: official disapproval and near-universal disregard of that position.

The Protestant position is more complex. I think it's actually changed at least twice. My sense is that as birth control became popular, initially Protestants saw little issue with it, but recently (maybe due to the general polarization of the US on sexual and gender issues) conservative Protestants have become more opposed to it. But before the early 20th Cent advent of modern birth control, I believe Protestants were opposed to contraception, though there doesn't seem to be much documentation on the subject aside from a few negative statements by the Reformers and a few others.
 

MoreCoffee

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...

The Protestant position is more complex. I think it's actually changed at least twice. My sense is that as birth control became popular, initially Protestants saw little issue with it, but recently (maybe due to the general polarization of the US on sexual and gender issues) conservative Protestants have become more opposed to it. But before the early 20th Cent advent of modern birth control, I believe Protestants were opposed to contraception, though there doesn't seem to be much documentation on the subject aside from a few negative statements by the Reformers and a few others.

I think that Lambeth conferences officially condemned artificial contraception in 1906 and in 1920. That would be an Anglican communion thing. Perhaps Anglicans do not consider themselves to be protestants. It is hard to be sure what each group thinks of itself.
 

Josiah

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The claim was broad enough that it would be hard to prove 100%.


I've seen these kind of Catholic things countless times, parroted endlessly but mindlessly with NO interest in whether it's actually true. These too-common sorts of things began to really bother me when I was 9 or 10 (and since).

IF we are to discuss the chain of claims in the OP, we need to first determine if they are true (unless we are to "discuss" myths). I challenged Philip to show that the first claim (just starting at the start) is true. He has done what I've experienced is ALWAYS done, revealed that it just doesn't matter if it's true.

Now, if our good friend would CHANGE the discussion.... drop the oft-parroted claims that Catholic sites perpetuate endlessly but mindlessly.... there are related issues worthy of discussion. I have my views about contraception (and the new "Pope-Approved" birth control method that Philip's denomination promotes as by far the largest, boldest religious promoter of contraceptive sex in the world) but this thread is about this chain of CLAIMS. Thus we need to first determine if the claims are TRUE. IMO, our friends lack of interest in whether Catholic claims are true or not is (sadly) too typical but it IS the issue he placed before us, what he made this thread about; that was his intention and design.


Pax Christi


- Josiah
 

MoreCoffee

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I've seen these kind of Catholic things countless times, parroted endlessly but mindlessly with NO interest in whether it's actually true. ...

Then show us at least one specific Christian denomination or church that promoted artificial contraception before the 20th century.

John Calvin wrote: 10.And the thing which he did displeased the LORD. Less neatly the Jews speak about this matter. I will contend myself with briefly mentioning this, as far as the sense of shame allows to discuss it. It is a horrible thing to pour out seed besides the intercourse of man and woman. Deliberately avoiding the intercourse, so that the seed drops on the ground, is double horrible. For this means that one quenches the hope of his family, and kills the son, which could be expected, before he is born. This wickedness is now as severely as is possible condemned by the Spirit, through Moses, that Onan, as it were, through a violent and untimely birth, tore away the seed of his brother out the womb, and as cruel as shamefully has thrown on the earth. Moreover he thus has, as much as was in his power, tried to destroy a part of the human race. When a woman in some way drives away the seed out the womb, through aids, then this is rightly seen as an unforgivable crime. Onan was guilty of a similar crime, by defiling the earth with his seed, so that Tamar would not receive a future inheritor.

Christian Reaction.
With the increased publicity and growing practice of contraception, the Christian churches were called upon to declare themselves.

The Catholic and Orthodox bodies came out strongly against artificial birth control. In 1930 Pope Pius XI published the encyclical on Christian marriage. He stated that those who interfere with normal conception are “openly departing from the Christian teaching which has been handed down from the beginning.”

Until the opening of the Second World War, the Orthodox position was also clearly prohibitive. It was assumed that contraception was wrong, and writers made only passing reference to the Eastern Christian tradition which universally reprobated the practice. Already at the Council of Nicea (325), men who sterilized themselves were not to be ordained, or if ordained and married, were to cease functioning as priests. Sts. John Chrysostom, Epiphanius, and Cyril of Alexandria among the Fathers of the Church were cited as witnesses to the Christian teaching.

Contraception was officially banned by Protestant Churches until the first quarter of the twentieth century. In 1920 the Lambeth Conference warned all Anglicans “against the use of unnatural means of avoiding conception”.

Ten years later, Lambeth changed its position to say that, “If there is a good moral reason why the way of abstinence should not be followed, we cannot condemn the use of scientific methods for preventing conception which are thoughtfully and conscientiously adopted. By 1958 the Anglican Conference raised the practice of contraception to the dignity of Christian virtue since “the number and frequency of children has been laid by God on the consciences of parents everywhere.”​
 
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I've seen these kind of Catholic things countless times, parroted endlessly but mindlessly with NO interest in whether it's actually true. These too-common sorts of things began to really bother me when I was 9 or 10 (and since).

IF we are to discuss the chain of claims in the OP, we need to first determine if they are true (unless we are to "discuss" myths). I challenged Philip to show that the first claim (just starting at the start) is true. He has done what I've experienced is ALWAYS done, revealed that it just doesn't matter if it's true.

Now, if our good friend would CHANGE the discussion.... drop the oft-parroted claims that Catholic sites perpetuate endlessly but mindlessly.... there are related issues worthy of discussion. I have my views about contraception (and the new "Pope-Approved" birth control method that Philip's denomination promotes as by far the largest, boldest religious promoter of contraceptive sex in the world) but this thread is about this chain of CLAIMS. Thus we need to first determine if the claims are TRUE. IMO, our friends lack of interest in whether Catholic claims are true or not is (sadly) too typical but it IS the issue he placed before us, what he made this thread about; that was his intention and design.


Pax Christi


- Josiah
I borrow the following Quote from another thread just to make the point more apparent, that so many statements are made by and/or about Roman Catholicism is if they are cold hard facts, when they're just not true, but we're expected to ignore that, accept the myth, and keep on reading and accepting more.

Example:

>>>They all (christians/churches) acknowledged one and the same head of the Church, and this was the Pope, who …was the head of the Church… in every part of the world where the Christian religion was professed. But there came a time, when some nations, or rather, parts of some nations, cast off the authority of the Pope, and of course no longer acknowledged him as head of the Christian Church. <<<

That's just not true, and when reading this kind of myth,
why continue reading and accepting the rest of the chain of posts?
 

Josiah

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MoreCoffee -

Please read the opening post. Please read the first claim, which you've been asked to show is true. It says nothing about "one denomination." It says nothing about limiting this to one century.

No, this is not my thread and no I don't need to prove a negative. YOU made the very specific claim..... YOU made this thread about that.... YOU need to show that the claim is true. If YOU state, "There are 6.4367 billion purple people eaters living on Jupiter" it would not be my specific responsibility to prove that number is wrong or even that the claim is wrong, it would be YOUR responsibility to document the claim as true. You know that. Everyone does. Come on. There is a long chain of CLAIMS in your opening post..... let's just start with the first: show that it's true.



- Josiah
 

MoreCoffee

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Josiah, I have no idea what you think ought be done. The BBC source is quoted as informative. I stated that I chose it because it is NOT Catholic.
 
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Josiah

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.




IMO, philosophically, there are just two camps here:

1) Homo Sapiens (at least married ones) should reproduce AS MUCH AS BIOLOGICALLY possible; to "skip a night" is SIN..... to do anything that even theoretically hinder conception is SIN.
2) Homo Sapiens (married or not) should act responsibly with reproduction, as adults. If having a child now is irresponsible, they either should not have sex or employ means so that conception is unlikely (having sex contraceptively).



Catholics have taught me that until the "Sexual Revolution" of the 1960's, the unofficial position of the RCC was #2, basically - "No kids? NO SEX!" It's doubtful any married couple ever followed that counsel, but it was the counsel (given by unmarried clergy). But in the spirit of being more helpful, and in the philosophical milieu of the 1960's and the "Sexual Revolution" going on (in Catholicism no less than elsewhere), that was change, entirely. The RCC began to embrace Birth Control. It was a radical change that SHOCKED a lot of Catholics at the time. The position changed to: "No Kids? HAVE SEX but Contraceptively, we'll teach you how!" Almost overnight, the RC Denomination became the largest, boldest religious promoter of Birth Control and contraceptive sex in the entire world! The Pope himself being the world's most famous promoter of Birth Control and contraceptive sex.



To ME, the irony is to hear Catholic go on and on and on against contraception when their denomination is BY FAR the world's largest, foremost, boldest religious promoter and teacher of contraceptive sex. How ironic! A LOT of Catholics laugh at the RCC on this point, this "doublespeak" of "contraceptive sex is SIN...... sign up today for our classes in how to have contraceptive sex!" As my brother-in-law put it, "When the Catholic Church makes up its mind, people will start to listen."


Now, unlike Catholics, the OFFICIAL RC Denomination "spin" actually is not Birth Control or contraceptive sex that it now opposes (the RCC did a complete "180" back in the 1960's), it's what METHOD of birth control is employed, what PRACTICE of contraceptive sex is used. You gotta use the new POPE APPROVED method of having sex contraceptvely!. Okay...... but of course, it the same philosophical position, the same morality, the same ethic, it's STILL "have lotsa of fun sex - but in a way that makes it unlikely for a kid to result." Same/same. It's still something DONE with the sole intent, desire, objective (and usually result) of HAVING sex but not HAVING a kid result. Same/same.




Sorry.



- Josiah



.
 
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MoreCoffee

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There are several categories into which people may be divided on this matter:
  • Those who reject artificial means of contraception and do not seek to limit family size by carefully choosing the times when they have sexual intercourse.
  • Those who reject artificial means of contraception and do seek to limit family size by carefully choosing the times when they have sexual intercourse.
  • Those who abstain from sex altogether.
  • Those who use artificial means of contraception to keep their family to what they consider a manageable size.
  • Those who use artificial means of contraception to avoid having children for a time or permanently.
  • Those who use artificial means of contraception for medical reasons outside of family size management.
There are likely many more categories that make sense. These are some that come to mind.
 

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Josiah said:

IMO, philosophically, there are just two camps here:

1) Homo Sapiens (at least married ones) should reproduce AS MUCH AS BIOLOGICALLY possible; to "skip a night" is SIN..... to do anything that even theoretically hinder conception is SIN.
2) Homo Sapiens (married or not) should act responsibly with reproduction, as adults. If having a child now is irresponsible, they either should not have sex or employ means so that conception is unlikely (having sex contraceptively).


Catholics have taught me that until the "Sexual Revolution" of the 1960's, the unofficial position of the RCC was #2, basically - "No kids? NO SEX!" It's doubtful any married couple ever followed that counsel, but it was the counsel (given by unmarried clergy). But in the spirit of being more helpful, and in the philosophical milieu of the 1960's and the "Sexual Revolution" going on (in Catholicism no less than elsewhere), that was change, entirely. The RCC began to embrace Birth Control. It was a radical change that SHOCKED a lot of Catholics at the time. The position changed to: "No Kids? HAVE SEX but Contraceptively, we'll teach you how!" Almost overnight, the RC Denomination became the largest, boldest religious promoter of Birth Control and contraceptive sex in the entire world! The Pope himself being the world's most famous promoter of Birth Control and contraceptive sex.



To ME, the irony is to hear Catholic go on and on and on against contraception when their denomination is BY FAR the world's largest, foremost, boldest religious promoter and teacher of contraceptive sex. How ironic! A LOT of Catholics laugh at the RCC on this point, this "doublespeak" of "contraceptive sex is SIN...... sign up today for our classes in how to have contraceptive sex!" As my brother-in-law put it, "When the Catholic Church makes up its mind, people will start to listen."


Now, unlike Catholics, the OFFICIAL RC Denomination "spin" actually is not Birth Control or contraceptive sex that it now opposes (the RCC did a complete "180" back in the 1960's), it's what METHOD of birth control is employed, what PRACTICE of contraceptive sex is used. You gotta use the new POPE APPROVED method of having sex contraceptvely!. Okay...... but of course, it the same philosophical position, the same morality, the same ethic, it's STILL "have lotsa of fun sex - but in a way that makes it unlikely for a kid to result." Same/same. It's still something DONE with the sole intent, desire, objective (and usually result) of HAVING sex but not HAVING a kid result. Same/same.




.

There are several categories into which people may be divided on this matter:
  • Those who reject artificial means of contraception and do not seek to limit family size by carefully choosing the times when they have sexual intercourse.
  • Those who reject artificial means of contraception and do seek to limit family size by carefully choosing the times when they have sexual intercourse.
  • Those who abstain from sex altogether.
  • Those who use artificial means of contraception to keep their family to what they consider a manageable size.
  • Those who use artificial means of contraception to avoid having children for a time or permanently.
  • Those who use artificial means of contraception for medical reasons outside of family size management.
There are likely many more categories that make sense. These are some that come to mind.



IMO,

The RCC morally embraces #1.

BUT when having a child would be irresponsible, the RC Denomination did a "180," it did a complete reversal of its stance in #2


When having a child would be irresponsible, the RC Denomination changed from "Have NO Sex" (just don't have sex AT ALL) to "You may HAVE sex - lots of great, fun, sex - at least as much as otherwise - but have it contraceptively!!! We'll teach you how! Sign up today for the next session of the New Catholic Birth Control Class!!!"

Thus we see the "doublespeak," the contradiction from some of our Catholic friends on this topic. As my very Catholic brother-in-law says, "When the Catholic Church makes up its mind, Catholics will start to listen." Meanwhile, I think the VAST majority of Catholics see the absurdity of the doublespeak and ignore their denomination on this.

Now, that's NOT to say there is not value in discussing the morality of contraceptive sex. It's just difficult for submissive, obedient, docilic Catholics do to since they have to parrot the post 1960's position of their denomination. And it's pretty nonsensical.



- Josiah



.
 
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MoreCoffee

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Within the Catholic Church some people who are contentious in their faith reject artificial means of contraception and do not seek to limit family size by carefully choosing the times when they have sexual intercourse. Some people who are contentious in their faith reject artificial means of contraception and do seek to limit family size by carefully choosing the times when they have sexual intercourse. And some people who are contentious in their faith abstain from sex altogether.
 

Josiah

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Yes, since the "Sexual Revolution" of the 1960's, the RC Denomination continues to permit the "No kids? NO SEX EVER!" counsel, but that denomination also is now by far the largest, foremost, boldest religious promoter and advocate of contraceptive sex in the entire world, the world's biggest promoter of Birth Control, shouting, "No Kids? HAVE SEX - lots of good, fun sex - but contraceptively, we'll teach you how!!!! Just sign up today for the next Contraceptive Sex Class held right here in the parish center!"
 
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