SetFree
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 7, 2022
- Messages
- 347
- Location
- USA
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- Male
- Religious Affiliation
- Non-Denominational
- Political Affiliation
- Conservative
- Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
- Yes
Firstly, understand that I am NOT... pushing any Pre-tribulational Rapture theory. My belief is a single Post-trib coming of Christ Jesus to gather His Church, as written.
Majority of the time I don't even use that word 'rapture' since it is nowhere used in the Greek New Testament manuscripts. The word translated to "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4 in the KJV Bible is the Greek word harpazo (NT:726), which means to seize. The word 'rapture' comes from a Latin translation of Greek harpazo. Some try to associate the word 'rapture' always to mean a Pre-tribulational Rapture theory that was first taught in 1830s Great Britain by the Edward Irving church and by John Nelson Darby. Prior to that, the Pre-trib Rapture idea was never taught in a Christian Church for over 1,800 years.
But some here want to confuse brethren about this issue, showing they are not of us in Christ...
1 Thess 4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
That is Apostle Paul speaking. He doesn't want them (and us, Christ's Church), to be ignorant of those brethren which are "asleep" in Christ, meaning those who have already died. Paul makes it very plain there that Jesus will bring those asleep saints with Him when He comes, and Lord Jesus still today has not returned yet, but will, as we still wait for Him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
That word in the Greek for "prevent" is actually a Greek word that means 'beforehand' or 'precede'. I don't know why the KJV translators made that say "prevent" when that's not the actual Greek word in the manuscripts. Paul is simply saying those of us still alive shall not precede, or go beforehand, the "asleep" saints. Why? Because it means the asleep saints are already there with Jesus. Paul taught about this in 2 Corinthians 5, to be absent from the body is to be present with The Lord. That is how... Jesus will bring those asleep saints with Him from the Heavenly when He comes and it's time for those asleep saints to be raised.
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
There it is again, Paul basically saying the same thing as before about the asleep saints will be raised first, and Jesus brings those with Him from the heavenly.
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
KJV
But for those us still alive on earth when He comes, we will be "caught up" to Him, and to them, in the air. This... is what the Latin Church fathers called a 'rapture'. But it is NOT... a Pre-tribulational Rapture. There's a difference. To be Pre-trib means one wrongly believes Jesus comes PRIOR to the great tribulation to gather His Church, which is NOT written.
In the above 1 Thessalonians 4 chapter, Apostle Paul gives a clue of 'when' those events will happen. He associated the time of the RESURRECTION of the dead with it. So when is that going to happen? Only on the LAST DAY of this present world when Lord Jesus returns. That is the ONLY future time left when these events here will occur. And even though there were some saints that came out of their graves when Lord Jesus gave up the ghost on His cross, this resurrection Paul speaks of here is a later event for the end of this world. So where... did Apostle Paul learn about this rapture by Christ Jesus?
In the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scriptures, Lord Jesus taught that His future coming will be immediately AFTER... the tribulation of those days, and at that time He will send His angels to gather His saints. In the Matthew 24:31 version He is pointing to the 'asleep' saints that Paul said He will bring with Him. In the Mark 13:27 version, He is pointing to the saints still alive on earth being gathered. That is where Apostle Paul got this 1 Thessalonians 4 teaching from, directly from Lord Jesus Christ, and it aligns perfectly with Christ's Olivet discourse account in Matthew 24 and Mark 13.
Majority of the time I don't even use that word 'rapture' since it is nowhere used in the Greek New Testament manuscripts. The word translated to "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4 in the KJV Bible is the Greek word harpazo (NT:726), which means to seize. The word 'rapture' comes from a Latin translation of Greek harpazo. Some try to associate the word 'rapture' always to mean a Pre-tribulational Rapture theory that was first taught in 1830s Great Britain by the Edward Irving church and by John Nelson Darby. Prior to that, the Pre-trib Rapture idea was never taught in a Christian Church for over 1,800 years.
But some here want to confuse brethren about this issue, showing they are not of us in Christ...
1 Thess 4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
That is Apostle Paul speaking. He doesn't want them (and us, Christ's Church), to be ignorant of those brethren which are "asleep" in Christ, meaning those who have already died. Paul makes it very plain there that Jesus will bring those asleep saints with Him when He comes, and Lord Jesus still today has not returned yet, but will, as we still wait for Him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
That word in the Greek for "prevent" is actually a Greek word that means 'beforehand' or 'precede'. I don't know why the KJV translators made that say "prevent" when that's not the actual Greek word in the manuscripts. Paul is simply saying those of us still alive shall not precede, or go beforehand, the "asleep" saints. Why? Because it means the asleep saints are already there with Jesus. Paul taught about this in 2 Corinthians 5, to be absent from the body is to be present with The Lord. That is how... Jesus will bring those asleep saints with Him from the Heavenly when He comes and it's time for those asleep saints to be raised.
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
There it is again, Paul basically saying the same thing as before about the asleep saints will be raised first, and Jesus brings those with Him from the heavenly.
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
KJV
But for those us still alive on earth when He comes, we will be "caught up" to Him, and to them, in the air. This... is what the Latin Church fathers called a 'rapture'. But it is NOT... a Pre-tribulational Rapture. There's a difference. To be Pre-trib means one wrongly believes Jesus comes PRIOR to the great tribulation to gather His Church, which is NOT written.
In the above 1 Thessalonians 4 chapter, Apostle Paul gives a clue of 'when' those events will happen. He associated the time of the RESURRECTION of the dead with it. So when is that going to happen? Only on the LAST DAY of this present world when Lord Jesus returns. That is the ONLY future time left when these events here will occur. And even though there were some saints that came out of their graves when Lord Jesus gave up the ghost on His cross, this resurrection Paul speaks of here is a later event for the end of this world. So where... did Apostle Paul learn about this rapture by Christ Jesus?
In the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scriptures, Lord Jesus taught that His future coming will be immediately AFTER... the tribulation of those days, and at that time He will send His angels to gather His saints. In the Matthew 24:31 version He is pointing to the 'asleep' saints that Paul said He will bring with Him. In the Mark 13:27 version, He is pointing to the saints still alive on earth being gathered. That is where Apostle Paul got this 1 Thessalonians 4 teaching from, directly from Lord Jesus Christ, and it aligns perfectly with Christ's Olivet discourse account in Matthew 24 and Mark 13.
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