Mary’s Perpetual Virginity

BruceLeiter said:

@MoreCoffee, here is where I disagree strongly with the Roman Catholics. You say, "She does pray for us and thus is an intercessor." How do you know that she does?

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I ask her to and the holy, Catholic, and Apostolic church tells me that she hears and prays for us.

BruceLeiter said:

She is human, and thus her soul is limited to one place in heaven, since she certainly isn't God, who is everywhere. She, therefore, can't hear everyone's prayers and as a result, can't relay them to God the Father.

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The above is protestant speculation. What makes you think that the saints in heaven are limited to one "place" in heaven and that they cannot "hear" our prayers and that Blessed Mary cannot intercede for us with God?

BruceLeiter said:

The crux of the disagreement I have is that the RCC has added a tradition established by the Popes apart from the Bible that they consider to be authoritative. The Bible should be the only basis for the Christian faith.

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I am certain that the Holy Tradition of the intercession of the saints was not established by a pope or even by several popes over time. You appear to be pulling these claims out of your hat.

Catholic teaching on the intercession of the saints arises from early Christian belief that the righteous in heaven continue to pray for the Church, grounded in New Testament images of heavenly intercession, shaped by second‑century veneration of martyrs, articulated clearly by third‑century writers like Origen and Cyprian, normalised as explicit invocation by the fourth century through Fathers such as Basil, Gregory Nazianzen, Augustine and Jerome, embedded in the developing doctrine of the communion of saints, and finally defined dogmatically at the Council of Trent, which affirmed that the saints in glory intercede for the faithful and may be invoked as part of the Church’s living communion.

Frankj said:

I have a difficult time accepting that praying to anyone but the father through Jesus is not a form of Idolatry and makes their prayers to saints and such a form of praying to false gods.

And I've never had a Catholic explain why it is not a violation of what the Apostles taught and what the church believed before the emergence of Constantinian Christianity that reformed the structure and beliefs of the early Christians along Roman hierarchical lines and politically approved doctrinal lines.

I would speculate that if a first century Christian were to attend any modern Church he probably wouldn't even recognize it as the same religion he practiced.

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I agree, @Frankj.

MoreCoffee said:

I ask her to and the holy, Catholic, and Apostolic church tells me that she hears and prays for us.

The above is protestant speculation. What makes you think that the saints in heaven are limited to one "place" in heaven and that they cannot "hear" our prayers and that Blessed Mary cannot intercede for us with God?

I am certain that the Holy Tradition of the intercession of the saints was not established by a pope or even by several popes over time. You appear to be pulling these claims out of your hat.

Catholic teaching on the intercession of the saints arises from early Christian belief that the righteous in heaven continue to pray for the Church, grounded in New Testament images of heavenly intercession, shaped by second‑century veneration of martyrs, articulated clearly by third‑century writers like Origen and Cyprian, normalised as explicit invocation by the fourth century through Fathers such as Basil, Gregory Nazianzen, Augustine and Jerome, embedded in the developing doctrine of the communion of saints, and finally defined dogmatically at the Council of Trent, which affirmed that the saints in glory intercede for the faithful and may be invoked as part of the Church’s living communion.

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You are probably right about the origin of your beliefs, but where, specifically, do you find that teaching in the Bible itself? What makes you think that the saints are everywhere and can hear our prayers? The Bible does not say so.

BruceLeiter said:

You are probably right about the origin of your beliefs, but where, specifically, do you find that teaching in the Bible itself? What makes you think that the saints are everywhere and can hear our prayers? The Bible does not say so.

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Why do I need to find a teaching in the bible in order for it to be true?

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we are to understand the Roman Catholic faith holds such a value in doctrines that have went through a great magnificent lengthy process that has taken 100 to 1000 years to develop and cultivate.

the process of inventing the doctrine - and the very developing process of a specific piece of doctrinal faith has made it truth.


because an evolution process requiring much time had passed -

- because multiple councils and votes were taken by important minds and much thoughtful planning was involved.

this makes it truth ?


its very telling, that the Vatican accepts the theory of evolution as - a fact of Catholic faith, evolution of theory that takes a great lengthy time and much discussion, planning and thought and many councils to evolve

and the scientific evolution theory will continue to evolve regarding the theory of evolution itself - it changes every few decades........

as well as an evolving Catholic theory.

nothing is truth just evolution of faith that takes many years to evolve and decisions by minds that come together .

MoreCoffee said:

Why do I need to find a teaching in the bible in order for it to be true?

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Why, @MoreCoffee? It's because any other teaching apart from the Bible is made by humans, who can and do make mistakes. The Bible must be the only bases for our faith, as Paul and Peter say:

2Ti 3:14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it
2Ti 3:15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

2Pe 1:16 For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
2Pe 1:17 For when he received honor and glory from God the Father, and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased,”
2Pe 1:18 we ourselves heard this very voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain.
2Pe 1:19 And we have the prophetic word more fully confirmed, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts,
2Pe 1:20 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

All human ideas that aren't found in the Bible must be evaluated in the light of its teachings as to its truth or falsehood.

BruceLeiter said:

Why, @MoreCoffee? It's because any other teaching apart from the Bible is made by humans, who can and do make mistakes.

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The bible was written b y humans who can make mistakes.

BruceLeiter said:

The Bible must be the only bases for our faith, as Paul and Peter say:

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Neither saint Peter nor saint Paul say that "the bible ...".

MoreCoffee said:

The bible was written b y humans who can make mistakes.

Neither saint Peter nor saint Paul say that "the bible ...".

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I'm curious, are you suggesting that there is no fixed standard for knowing the truth? That it is only whatever we want it to be with no way to discern if something is the truth as God meant it?

Frankj said:

I'm curious, are you suggesting that there is no fixed standard for knowing the truth? That it is only whatever we want it to be with no way to discern if something is the truth as God meant it?

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Yes, there's no book or any other human production that defines the truth. However, Jesus said of himself "I am the truth" and so I look to Christ for truth and the scriptures witness to him, but the scriptures are NOT Christ and hence are not The Truth as he is.

MoreCoffee said:

Yes, there's no book or any other human production that defines the truth. However, Jesus said of himself "I am the truth" and so I look to Christ for truth and the scriptures witness to him, but the scriptures are NOT Christ and hence are not The Truth as he is.

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Well one thing's for certain, no doctrine of man is to be considered the truth.

Which leads to the question: How do we discern the difference?

Frankj said:

Well one thing's for certain, no doctrine of man is to be considered the truth.

Which leads to the question: How do we discern the difference?

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The answer is obvious.

One listens to and hears the voice of the Holy Spirit speaking in and through Christ's Church. "so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth."

MoreCoffee said:

The answer is obvious.

One listens to and hears the voice of the Holy Spirit speaking in and through Christ's Church. "so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth."

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What are you calling Christ's Church? Sometimes a well defined mutual understanding of the words being used needs to develop or people who think they are talking about the same thing are actually talking about different things.

Frankj said:

What are you calling Christ's Church?

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The answer is in the Nicene Creed to which you adhere - the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Then this, and not the Bible, are what you use to determine truth and true teaching.

Doesn't this sort of take us back to wondering where praying to Mary or some other saint, praying to the dead, instead of to the Father through Jesus and Holy Spirit fits into the scheme?

I urge you to look at the Church in a pre Constantine manner instead of a post Constantine one, the early Christians who were closest to Jesus in time and some of which knew Jesus' teachings at the time as he spoke them and taught them to others from their own direct knowledge of them.

This is not a scholarly theological question but one of a true relationship with God as he desires it to be.