"Reformed" (non denomination specific) subculture question

Uncle_Sol · Dec 8, 2024

In one of the previous phases in my life about 40 years ago when I was a fairly young man, christians didn't describe themselves as "reformed" - it seemed to mean Luther - and behaved and interacted differently, and allowed each other to act differently, from today. In those days if my sense of memory isn't tricking me, Bible studies were a conversation in which we gained light shared among each other.

I am all for getting up to date and also being in the utmost tactful. Here are some current phenomena I find shocking. I would value kindly observations from all who have experience and insight into these situations, of whatever current denomination.

I inadvertently dropped the B-word (belief) and was pounced upon. The person interrupting, a sub-animator, said belief is head knowledge and that I need heart knowledge - which I hadn't said or showed I hadn't got, and in addition equivocates as to the value of head knowledge.

There is the splitting of the "home group" into subgroups so that one gets less insight: the people one most went there to meet, probably aren't allowed in that subgroup (rapport builds to some extent on relationships and spreads precisely on that firm basis). Also I noticed that the other participants, who are less than half my age, are being interrupted every few seconds also.

Another time we were looking at the first two-thirds of Jn 4 and I said it is connected with worship in Spirit and in truth and was instantly declared off topic by the sub-animator (a different one in a different group from the one mentioned above).

These are people who are adamant that they are "reformed" and that is not a name I am applying to them.

For some time after I first turned up, there was one couple that were kind to me and of late kindness has widened a little.

When I look up statements-of-doctrine of the Reformed, I see a range from the muddled, to crystal clear and what I believed since my infancy (dreaded B-word again). The one this church published is towards the muddled side.

Almost everybody volunteers and almost everybody gets accepted into membership in a few weeks after turning up. Considering their music is very good, and their visual projectors are inefficient, the amount of bulky kit that needs continual assembling and storing is way over the top. (Any church I was at before now, required membership or equivalent "practice", only of senior volunteers and those wishing to vote on business.)

It's almost as if I don't push their buttons and I don't push theirs.

It's not clear where the sub-animators got their training.

I'm not going to gain sympathy by "contradicting" anybody the way I and others get contradicted. But, the assistant minister did tell me he wants to put a stop to the declaring of people to be off topic, and said he would back me up.

The new senior minister preached an excellent series on James in the last few weeks.

Any kindly suggestions please in addition to some far more than average amounts of prayer? I'm wishing anybody of any denominations that has brainwaves. It's just a subculture thing. I think that 2024 is not a time to idle as if the minds of the 25-somethings and the 45-somethings don't matter (40 years ago "we" were more earnest as well as freer - earnest precisely because free). Thank you!

fuddy · Dec 12, 2024

It sounds as if you're being treated rudely by people who are adamant in expressing their own (often muddled?) viewpoints while excluding yours. They are effectually only studying themselves.

Find another church??

BruceLeiter · Dec 12, 2024

fuddy said:
It sounds as if you're being treated rudely by people who are adamant in expressing their own (often muddled?) viewpoints while excluding yours. They are effectually only studying themselves.

Find another church??

Find another group or Reformed, Evangelical, or Baptist church that is more open to wider discussion and application of God's Word.

Uncle_Sol · Dec 12, 2024

I just found out one of the main animators was a missionary in Peru. Perhaps he is burned out and typically that's not a concept for that sort. I'm going to continue checking out the people that recently began warming to me; perhaps they will make a stand as well and more effectively than me, and praying for them. There is a calm chapel very near my home that meets at a completely different time so if I've the energy I can jump ship gradually.

Uncle_Sol · Dec 12, 2024

BruceLeiter said:
Find another group or Reformed, Evangelical, or Baptist church that is more open to wider discussion and application of God's Word.

Curiously I just found this wording on their Charities Commission page:

"Regular small group meetings for the teaching and open discussion of the Christian message."

What does that jargon mean ???

fuddy · Dec 13, 2024

Hopefully, just as it says. The word 'open' is encouraging.

Uncle_Sol · Dec 13, 2024

fuddy said:
Hopefully, just as it says. The word 'open' is encouraging.

In practice as I've witnessed so far, it's ambiguous, but perhaps it's their way of challenging themselves and inviting the likes of me to keep challenging them on it!

fuddy · Dec 13, 2024

Well, give them a good shake-up, and if they're offended, explain that 'open discussion' should mean open discussion.

SetFree · Jan 16, 2025

All I can say, is that IF... one stays in God's Word, as written, then they will be able to easily recognize a Beth-aven (what God calls a 'house of vanity' in The Old Testament).

Just to show how Biblically illiterate some are, they will name their Church using the word Bethaven which is actually from that Hebrew 'Beth (house), and Aven (vanity)'.

Christianity is not a political movement, nor even a religion. Christianity is The Truth, and is revealed in God's written Word, which is why Apostle Paul said all brethren should be saying the same thing.

It is when brethren stray... to other things and forget to stay in the written Word of God that they allow vanity to creep into the congregation.

BruceLeiter · Feb 5, 2025

SetFree said:
All I can say, is that IF... one stays in God's Word, as written, then they will be able to easily recognize a Beth-aven (what God calls a 'house of vanity' in The Old Testament).

Just to show how Biblically illiterate some are, they will name their Church using the word Bethaven which is actually from that Hebrew 'Beth (house), and Aven (vanity)'.

Christianity is not a political movement, nor even a religion. Christianity is The Truth, and is revealed in God's written Word, which is why Apostle Paul said all brethren should be saying the same thing.

It is when brethren stray... to other things and forget to stay in the written Word of God that they allow vanity to creep into the congregation.

In what passage did the Apostle Paul say that all brothers "should be saying the same thing"? I agree, by the way, that we need to stay close to God's Word alone.

SetFree · Feb 14, 2025

BruceLeiter said:
In what passage did the Apostle Paul say that all brothers "should be saying the same thing"? I agree, by the way, that we need to stay close to God's Word alone.

1 Cor 1:10-13
10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, "I am of Paul"; and "I of Apollos"; and "I of Cephas"; and "I of Christ".

13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
KJV

Apostle Paul kind of lays it on thick with that Church at Corinth, eh? I can well understand why, because today that kind of thing is much worse with many denominations and divisions in the Church.

Early on in Israel's history, when God led them into the lands of Canaan, God commanded them to literally wipe out certain nations of those Canaanites, not leave alive anything that breathed. The children of Israel failed in that, and God then told them, because they disobeyed Him, He would allow the leftovers of those Canaanites to become a thorn in Israel's side, to test Israel with, to see if Israel would follow Him, or not (see Deut.20:10 forward, and Judges 2 & 3).

To this day, God will allow the enemy to tempt and test us, to determine who we will listen to and follow. This is why it is always safe... and wise... to stay in God's Word as written, and check out what men teach, to see if they also are staying in God's Word as written. And in the coming "great tribulation", that temptation is going to be much, much greater than it is today for those who do not bother to check out their preachers in God's Word for themselves.

Consider if a teacher was giving a class on electronics, a field that in order to become a 'workman' in, one must adhere to specific truths that are immutable and solid in their foundation. That so one doesn't get killed or accidently kill someone else. And then some smart-elick comes along and tries to convince the students that the teacher is wrong, and that the Text Book doesn't really mean what it says., but means something else. What do you think would happen to those students that listened to that babbler when they started actually working with electricity??

BruceLeiter · Feb 24, 2025

SetFree said:
1 Cor 1:10-13
10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, "I am of Paul"; and "I of Apollos"; and "I of Cephas"; and "I of Christ".

13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
KJV

Apostle Paul kind of lays it on thick with that Church at Corinth, eh? I can well understand why, because today that kind of thing is much worse with many denominations and divisions in the Church.

Early on in Israel's history, when God led them into the lands of Canaan, God commanded them to literally wipe out certain nations of those Canaanites, not leave alive anything that breathed. The children of Israel failed in that, and God then told them, because they disobeyed Him, He would allow the leftovers of those Canaanites to become a thorn in Israel's side, to test Israel with, to see if Israel would follow Him, or not (see Deut.20:10 forward, and Judges 2 & 3).

To this day, God will allow the enemy to tempt and test us, to determine who we will listen to and follow. This is why it is always safe... and wise... to stay in God's Word as written, and check out what men teach, to see if they also are staying in God's Word as written. And in the coming "great tribulation", that temptation is going to be much, much greater than it is today for those who do not bother to check out their preachers in God's Word for themselves.

Consider if a teacher was giving a class on electronics, a field that in order to become a 'workman' in, one must adhere to specific truths that are immutable and solid in their foundation. That so one doesn't get killed or accidently kill someone else. And then some smart-elick comes along and tries to convince the students that the teacher is wrong, and that the Text Book doesn't really mean what it says., but means something else. What do you think would happen to those students that listened to that babbler when they started actually working with electricity??

Do we have to agree on every single belief and interpretation of the Bible? I don't think so. In my church, I disagree with the official stands on the millennium and baptism. They say that I may not teach or promote my beliefs but can share them in my small group. I'm fine with that requirement, so I am now a member, because I consider those differences to be minor interpretations, not like the major ones of the Trinity, Jesus' two natures, and his literal death and resurrection for our salvation.

As far as I am concerned, the major issues are shared by all the major Christian denominations, and the minor ones are the only differences. We can cooperate and find common ground on the main ones and thus demonstrate our oneness in Christ.

SetFree · Feb 24, 2025

BruceLeiter said:
Do we have to agree on every single belief and interpretation of the Bible? I don't think so.

Do you mean it's OK for example, if one denomination condemns others because those other Churches allow music in the Church service? No it is not OK to create divisions for such things. Some Churches use handling live snakes as a test one's Faith in their service, is that OK per New Testament doctrine? No, it is not OK, not Christ nor any of the Apostles recommended doing stuff that.

The problem is man's thinking of what 'religion' is. Religion is what most think of with the idea of the Church. But Christianity is NOT a religion, it is The TRUTH. It is man... that tries to make a religion out of things, do this, don't do that, appear holy when you pray, etc. Those kind of things are of this world, and not from God. He instead wants us to love Him, and listen to Him in His Word using the common sense He gave us, and don't try to make a religion out of everything.

Some brethren actually worship the ink and letters on the pages of their Bible instead of actually reading and studying God's written Word with 'understanding'. I've got notes I scribbled all in my KJV Bible, and it is well worn from use. When it gets to where I can't use it anymore, I'll just retire it upon shelf, and get another one like it, and keep making notes and referring to my old one too. Some brethren just put their Bible that's in great shape from lack of use, upon their shelf, and they leave it there, hardly opening it in Bible study. It's like they somehow think just by The Bible being in plain sight upon that shelf that it shall protect them from evil. God is inside every one of us, not upon a shelf, nor in the ink or paper. And like Apostle John said in John 4, God is a Spirit, and He seeks those who worship Him to worship Him in spirit and in truth.

BruceLeiter said:
In my church, I disagree with the official stands on the millennium and baptism. They say that I may not teach or promote my beliefs but can share them in my small group. I'm fine with that requirement, so I am now a member, because I consider those differences to be minor interpretations, not like the major ones of the Trinity, Jesus' two natures, and his literal death and resurrection for our salvation.

As far as I am concerned, the major issues are shared by all the major Christian denominations, and the minor ones are the only differences. We can cooperate and find common ground on the main ones and thus demonstrate our oneness in Christ.

If you look at a variety of Christian forums out there, you'll find all sorts of false doctrines being pushed as if they were Biblical truths, when they are ideas so far outside The Bible that's it's truly easy to discern their falsehoods for those who actually study their Bible. And that's one way to learn just what kind of doctrines of men are going around. It is difficult to screen non-believers, occultists, atheists, etc., that come to Christian forums and hide, for they have no conscience with claiming to be a Christian just in order to deceive. The way we discern those is by actually knowing what Bible Scripture says instead of the mere traditions of men.

And one of the main matters you refer to is actually about the different levels of understanding in The Bible each believer may be at. Of course the new babe in Christ is still going to be on the "milk" of God's Word. But like Hebrews 5 teaches (probably Apostle Paul), there is a time when brethren in Christ should become knowledgeable enough to be 'teachers' and on the "strong meat" of God's Word. Yet I know brethren that have attended Church all their lives, and are at an advanced age, and they are still sucking on the 'milk' bottle of God's Word, never having progressed to the "strong meat".

What that does is this. When someone with experience on the "strong meat" tries to teach those still sucking on the milk bottle of The Word, at times they will think that teacher is pushing a false doctrine not written in The Bible, even if strong relevant Bible Scripture is presented to them. Those on the 'milk' in that situation are like, "Well I've never heard that before in any... Church! Oh my! This must be a false prophet!" And let me tell ya, in God's Old Testament prophets, He gave some very expressive remarks about false worship using the sense of a harlot or prostitute, which little old ladies in Church find insulting to hear taught in Church. Our Heavenly Father and His Son Jesus Christ use those kind of expressions to get His point across. And it does, for those who listen to Him.

The thing about 'different levels of Bible understanding' is that each level will always agree with each other, Biblically. But ideas that go against what is written Biblically, like the false pre-trib rapture theory which was first taught in a Christian Church in 1830's Britain, that is simply an example of a 'tradition of men', and not what is written in The Bible at all. And we see a whole lot of those kind of false traditions, as the pre-trib rapture theory from man is a major popular one. Yet it is not a Biblical doctrine. Lord Jesus showed in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 that His coming to gather us will be after... the "great tribulation", and all... Christians should believe what He said there.

BruceLeiter · Feb 25, 2025

SetFree said:
Do you mean it's OK for example, if one denomination condemns others because those other Churches allow music in the Church service? No it is not OK to create divisions for such things. Some Churches use handling live snakes as a test one's Faith in their service, is that OK per New Testament doctrine? No, it is not OK, not Christ nor any of the Apostles recommended doing stuff that.

The problem is man's thinking of what 'religion' is. Religion is what most think of with the idea of the Church. But Christianity is NOT a religion, it is The TRUTH. It is man... that tries to make a religion out of things, do this, don't do that, appear holy when you pray, etc. Those kind of things are of this world, and not from God. He instead wants us to love Him, and listen to Him in His Word using the common sense He gave us, and don't try to make a religion out of everything.

Some brethren actually worship the ink and letters on the pages of their Bible instead of actually reading and studying God's written Word with 'understanding'. I've got notes I scribbled all in my KJV Bible, and it is well worn from use. When it gets to where I can't use it anymore, I'll just retire it upon shelf, and get another one like it, and keep making notes and referring to my old one too. Some brethren just put their Bible that's in great shape from lack of use, upon their shelf, and they leave it there, hardly opening it in Bible study. It's like they somehow think just by The Bible being in plain sight upon that shelf that it shall protect them from evil. God is inside every one of us, not upon a shelf, nor in the ink or paper. And like Apostle John said in John 4, God is a Spirit, and He seeks those who worship Him to worship Him in spirit and in truth.

If you look at a variety of Christian forums out there, you'll find all sorts of false doctrines being pushed as if they were Biblical truths, when they are ideas so far outside The Bible that's it's truly easy to discern their falsehoods for those who actually study their Bible. And that's one way to learn just what kind of doctrines of men are going around. It is difficult to screen non-believers, occultists, atheists, etc., that come to Christian forums and hide, for they have no conscience with claiming to be a Christian just in order to deceive. The way we discern those is by actually knowing what Bible Scripture says instead of the mere traditions of men.

And one of the main matters you refer to is actually about the different levels of understanding in The Bible each believer may be at. Of course the new babe in Christ is still going to be on the "milk" of God's Word. But like Hebrews 5 teaches (probably Apostle Paul), there is a time when brethren in Christ should become knowledgeable enough to be 'teachers' and on the "strong meat" of God's Word. Yet I know brethren that have attended Church all their lives, and are at an advanced age, and they are still sucking on the 'milk' bottle of God's Word, never having progressed to the "strong meat".

What that does is this. When someone with experience on the "strong meat" tries to teach those still sucking on the milk bottle of The Word, at times they will think that teacher is pushing a false doctrine not written in The Bible, even if strong relevant Bible Scripture is presented to them. Those on the 'milk' in that situation are like, "Well I've never heard that before in any... Church! Oh my! This must be a false prophet!" And let me tell ya, in God's Old Testament prophets, He gave some very expressive remarks about false worship using the sense of a harlot or prostitute, which little old ladies in Church find insulting to hear taught in Church. Our Heavenly Father and His Son Jesus Christ use those kind of expressions to get His point across. And it does, for those who listen to Him.

The thing about 'different levels of Bible understanding' is that each level will always agree with each other, Biblically. But ideas that go against what is written Biblically, like the false pre-trib rapture theory which was first taught in a Christian Church in 1830's Britain, that is simply an example of a 'tradition of men', and not what is written in The Bible at all. And we see a whole lot of those kind of false traditions, as the pre-trib rapture theory from man is a major popular one. Yet it is not a Biblical doctrine. Lord Jesus showed in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 that His coming to gather us will be after... the "great tribulation", and all... Christians should believe what He said there.

I agree with you, @SetFree, that there are a lot of false ideas floating around in churches. When I started looking for churches because my church that I attended for a dozen years didn't really believe in reaching out to unbelievers, my biblical antennae went up when I listened to sermons. The one I became a member of had preaching that stuck closely to the Bible's verses. My antennae were satisfied. The form of contemporary worship didn't bother me because the content of the songs was biblical.

For me, religion is the outward form of worship. I look below the surface to the beliefs expressed. The reason is that I was christened as a Methodist baby, grew up in a liberal church that hardly ever mentioned biblical beliefs, became a believer at 16 in a Baptist church, attended a cult for two years, and joined the Christian Reformed Church in college. All those churches had unbiblical ideas, but the Baptist and Calvinist churches were the closest to Scripture from its own viewpoint.

SetFree · Feb 26, 2025

BruceLeiter said:
I agree with you, @SetFree, that there are a lot of false ideas floating around in churches. When I started looking for churches because my church that I attended for a dozen years didn't really believe in reaching out to unbelievers, my biblical antennae went up when I listened to sermons. The one I became a member of had preaching that stuck closely to the Bible's verses. My antennae were satisfied. The form of contemporary worship didn't bother me because the content of the songs was biblical.

For me, religion is the outward form of worship. I look below the surface to the beliefs expressed. The reason is that I was christened as a Methodist baby, grew up in a liberal church that hardly ever mentioned biblical beliefs, became a believer at 16 in a Baptist church, attended a cult for two years, and joined the Christian Reformed Church in college. All those churches had unbiblical ideas, but the Baptist and Calvinist churches were the closest to Scripture from its own viewpoint.

I understand your Christian journey. And I don't want to sound as if I were against today's various Christian denominations, because their main job they still do, and that is the preaching of The Gospel of Jesus Christ, the 'milk' of God's Word. That's their main job to bring unbelievers to Christ.

But what did Lord Jesus ask Peter three times if Peter loved Him, and Peter said yes, then Jesus responded with, "Feed My sheep". That's three times for emphasis, so we know when God does that, He is speaking of a very, very important matter. That idea of feeding Christ's sheep is about Bible teaching of The Word of God, the sheep representing His Church. Once we believe The Gospel and are baptized, we are to wean off the 'milk'' of God's Word, and learn the "strong meat" to become teachers ourselves (Hebrews 5).

Well, what's that "strong meat"? One of the "strong meat" ideas in God's Word is what Lord Jesus showed in Matthew 13 with the parable of the tares of the field. In the latter part of that Chapter He actually explained the meaning of that parable to His disciples who asked Him. How many brethren that have read that have accepted what Jesus explained there literally?

Matt 13:36-43
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and His disciples came unto Him, saying, "Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field."

37 He answered and said unto them, "He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41 The Son of man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
KJV

BruceLeiter · Feb 27, 2025

In our huge church, the preacher does the impossible task of preaching for new Christians as well as mature Christians. My small group has the latter people. However, he challenges us with God's Word, and I tell my group that we all must apply God's Word for ourselves, because I know as a retired preacher, how hard preachers' jobs are to apply the Word for everyone, an impossible task.

Lamb · Feb 28, 2025

BruceLeiter said:
In our huge church, the preacher does the impossible task of preaching for new Christians as well as mature Christians. My small group has the latter people. However, he challenges us with God's Word, and I tell my group that we all must apply God's Word for ourselves, because I know as a retired preacher, how hard preachers' jobs are to apply the Word for everyone, an impossible task.

How is it impossible when God's Word is what's reaching them and the Holy Spirit works through the preacher?

BruceLeiter · Mar 4, 2025

Lamb said:
How is it impossible when God's Word is what's reaching them and the Holy Spirit works through the preacher?

What I'm saying is that the vast variety of people and their needs makes the preacher's task impossible to apply the Word to all the listeners. The listeners must do the application for themselves by seeking the Holy Spirit's filling. Sadly, many don't.

SetFree · Mar 4, 2025

BruceLeiter said:
What I'm saying is that the vast variety of people and their needs makes the preacher's task impossible to apply the Word to all the listeners. The listeners must do the application for themselves by seeking the Holy Spirit's filling. Sadly, many don't.

I 'feel' what you are saying, but I disagree with any idea that covering God's Word as written line upon line, chapter by chapter won't help bring unbelievers to Faith on The Gospel of Jesus Christ. I find that the more of God's written Word the new hearer hears, the more apt they are to believe on The Father and The Son. And The Gospel of Jesus Christ can be found in just about every Book of The Bible.

Rom 10:13-15
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on Him in Whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in Him of Whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, 'How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!'
KJV

Lamb · Mar 5, 2025

BruceLeiter said:
What I'm saying is that the vast variety of people and their needs makes the preacher's task impossible to apply the Word to all the listeners. The listeners must do the application for themselves by seeking the Holy Spirit's filling. Sadly, many don't.

I don't think the Holy Spirit needs our permission. We see all the time that man tends to not want to do God's will, and yet, God breaks down our will until it is done (see Jonah). That's God's job

"Reformed" (non denomination specific) subculture question

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