The Filioque Clause

[Lamb]

The filioque is Latin for "and son".

We have an old thread HERE but never really got into it much.

The East and the West were split over the addition to the Nicene Creed. Our Statement of Faith includes both versions:

Who proceeds from the Father
Who proceeds from the Father and the Son

The verses I have found pertaining to this are
John 14:26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name
John 15:26 When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, He will testify about me.

John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, to be with you forever...
Philippians 1: 19 for I know that through your prayers and with the help of the Spirit of Jesus Christ this will turn out for my deliverance

The top two are proof for the East and the bottom two for the West.

Are there any other verses that apply?

 

[MoreCoffee]

The filioque is Latin for "and son".

We have an old thread HERE but never really got into it much.

The East and the West were split over the addition to the Nicene Creed.

The split had a lot more to do with mutual excommunications than it had to do with the filioque in the Nicene Creed recited in Latin churches. But as time passed and the immediate heat of the excommunications ebbed other things came to the fore as reasons to sustain the breach - the filioque was one of the other things even more important was a crusader sacking of Constantinople.

Our Statement of Faith includes both versions:

Who proceeds from the Father
Who proceeds from the Father and the Son

The verses I have found pertaining to this are
John 14:26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name
John 15:26 When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, He will testify about me.

John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, to be with you forever...
Philippians 1: 19 for I know that through your prayers and with the help of the Spirit of Jesus Christ this will turn out for my deliverance

The top two are proof for the East and the bottom two for the West.

Are there any other verses that apply?

 

[Josiah]

HISTORICLY, this was just the very light straw that broke the camel's back.... The East (with a collegiant view) and the West (with a very Roman power, centralization view) never got along.... there was already a rift when Christianity was made legal and the State Religion of the Empire (with the Empire creating a denomination for itself). That rift only grew wider and wider.... By the 9th Century, they weren't talking to each other.... in 1054, the rift became formal and official (clearly two denominations) as they excommunicated each other. Historically, the "and the son" was an EXCUSE on both sides. BTW, the rift continued.... Roman Catholic "crusaders" went to war with the East, destroying Constantinople in 1204.


CREEDILY, we need to remember there has never been an "official wording" of any of the creeds (in Greek OR in any translation such as Latin). But yes, in time, certain wordings became customary. And as the rift would suggest, there was a rift in the customary wording between the collegient view of the East and the dictitorial view of the West.... IMO, while the words "... and the Son" are clearly not original, they are certainly permissible. I think the East objected not because of the teaching but because it saw yet another example of the Wests inability to leave well enough alone and the Wests snubbing of all but it itself, it's whole lack of consideration for the church catholic and it's claim that It Itself could do whatever It Itself wanted cuz It Itself is all-powerful and unaccountable. The East saw this as yet another, still another example of that.



- Josiah



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[Tigger]

In my mind in order to add the phrase 'and from the Son' the distinction should be made 'in matters of salvation'. Meaning God's redemptive order with mankind.

2nd what was agreed upon in an ecumenical council should not of been overridden unilaterally excluding the other entities involved in creating the original creed.

 

[user1234]

Another fine example. :banghead:
Jesus prayed for, and then paid for, our unity, but noooooo ..... there went the professing believers dividing over things like this.

The Holy Spirit proceeded from the Father and the Son and Himself.
How could any good thing given to us come from the Father and not from the Son? It doesnt make sense. Jesus said I and My Father are one.
And He wants us to be one, with God, and with each other.

 

[Cassia]

In my mind in order to add the phrase 'and from the Son' the distinction should be made 'in matters of salvation'. Meaning God's redemptive order with mankind.

2nd what was agreed upon in an ecumenical council should not of been overridden unilaterally excluding the other entities involved in creating the original creed.

What do you mean by "unilaterally excluding the other entities involved in creating the original creed. "?

 

[Tigger]

What do you mean by "unilaterally excluding the other entities involved in creating the original creed. "?

Ecumenical councils are not ratified until a unanimous consensus is attained by all the members involved in hammering out the details of the subject matter of the gathering. The bishop of Rome unilaterally/singularly (adding to/changing the) creed is diametrically opposed to the concept of an ecumenical council.

 

[Cassia]

Ecumenical councils are not ratified until a unanimous consensus is attained by all the members involved in hammering out the details of the subject matter of the gathering. The bishop of Rome unilaterally/singularly (adding to/changing the) creed is diametrically opposed to the concept of an ecumenical council.

Thanks Tigger, that makes sense ...

 

[Lamb]

Another fine example. :banghead:
Jesus prayed for, and then paid for, our unity, but noooooo ..... there went the professing believers dividing over things like this.

The Holy Spirit proceeded from the Father and the Son and Himself.
How could any good thing given to us come from the Father and not from the Son? It doesnt make sense. Jesus said I and My Father are one.
And He wants us to be one, with God, and with each other.

I like this because even though we believe in the Trinity we also believe He is one which is why proceeds from the Father and the Son makes sense to me. I don't see it as being that the Father and Son are above the Holy Spirit as I've read on some websites concerning this are trying to say by using that phrasing.

 

[user1234]

I like this because even though we believe in the Trinity we also believe He is one which is why proceeds from the Father and the Son makes sense to me. I don't see it as being that the Father and Son are above the Holy Spirit as I've read on some websites concerning this are trying to say by using that phrasing.

I dont recall reading that (them being above the Holy Spirit) Im glad I havent .... Im in one of those moods, lol!

But I do know there are those that seem to place overemphasis on the Holy Spirit and seem to elevate Him above the Father and the Son.
But they are co-equal and co-eternal. Not above or below each other.

 

[Lamb]

I dont recall reading that (them being above the Holy Spirit) Im glad I havent .... Im in one of those moods, lol!

But I do know there are those that seem to place overemphasis on the Holy Spirit and seem to elevate Him above the Father and the Son.
But they are co-equal and co-eternal. Not above or below each other.

It sounds like you've recited the Athanasian Creed a few times Here is a part:

"The Father is made of none: neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son: neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before or after other; none is greater or less than another; But the whole three Persons are coeternal together, and coequal: so that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshiped. He, therefore, that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity. "

 

[Cassia]

I like this because even though we believe in the Trinity we also believe He is one which is why proceeds from the Father and the Son makes sense to me. I don't see it as being that the Father and Son are above the Holy Spirit as I've read on some websites concerning this are trying to say by using that phrasing.

I dont recall reading that (them being above the Holy Spirit) Im glad I havent .... Im in one of those moods, lol!

But I do know there are those that seem to place overemphasis on the Holy Spirit and seem to elevate Him above the Father and the Son.
But they are co-equal and co-eternal. Not above or below each other.

The Spirit is what we have to do with in this age. Not with the institution of church.

 

[MoreCoffee]

In my mind in order to add the phrase 'and from the Son' the distinction should be made 'in matters of salvation'. Meaning God's redemptive order with mankind.

2nd what was agreed upon in an ecumenical council should not of been overridden unilaterally excluding the other entities involved in creating the original creed.

The council of Florence offered a solution that the Greek Orthodox bishops present at the council accepted but that was later rejected in Constantinople. The proposed solution was to understand that the meaning of "and the Son" may be construed to be "and through the Son" thus maintaining the proper distinctions revealed in holy scripture between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

 

[user1234]

It sounds like you've recited the Athanasian Creed a few times Here is a part:

"The Father is made of none: neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son: neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before or after other; none is greater or less than another; But the whole three Persons are coeternal together, and coequal: so that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshiped. He, therefore, that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity. "

Don't know much about creeds and all those things, I just read the bible and listen to diff radio and internet pastor/teachers.

 

[user1234]

But I do know there are those that seem to place overemphasis on the Holy Spirit and seem to elevate Him above the Father and the Son.
But they are co-equal and co-eternal. Not above or below each other.

The Spirit is what we have to do with in this age. Not with the institution of church.

Not quite sure how your comment relates to my post. ? :thinking:

 

[Cassia]

...

 

[MoreCoffee]

The Spirit is what we have to do with in this age. Not with the institution of church.

The Church is the body of Christ so how can it be an institution? I know that people say things like "institutional church" but that almost always appears to be part of a complaint about why they do not go to church. But since the Church is the body of Christ and not some human invented "institution" it is a misplaced complaint.

 

[Cassia]

After the gospels is the book of Acts that shows us the Body working in co-operation with the Holy Spirit. In Jesus there was one man acting in a divine way. In Acts there's thousands living in the same way by the the same life given thru the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:13
Some of us are Jews, and others are Gentiles. Some of us are slaves, and others are free. But God’s Spirit baptized each of us and made us part of the body of Christ. Now we each drink from that same Spirit.

John 7:37-39
On the last and most important day of the festival, Jesus stood up and shouted, “If you are thirsty, come to me and drink! 38 Have faith in me, and you will have life-giving water flowing from deep inside you, just as the Scriptures say.” 39 Jesus was talking about the Holy Spirit, who would be given to everyone that had faith in him. The Spirit had not yet been given to anyone, since Jesus had not yet been given his full glory.​

John 12:24
I tell you for certain that a grain of wheat that falls on the ground will never be more than one grain unless it dies. But if it dies, it will produce lots of wheat.

Note that it says wheat and not tares, so not those who are pewsitters only.

 

[Josiah]

The Church is the body of Christ so how can it be an institution?

EXACTLY! That's just one of the reasons why I left your denomination.

the Church is the body of Christ and not some human invented "institution" .

Thus, the Catholic Church in no sense is the church. In fullness or at all. Not a bit. Not at all.

 

[user1234]

Placing emphasis on the Holy Spirit is not something that should be criticized considering that the disciples, while Jesus was on the earth with them, emphasized Him. Now He has sent us The Comforter that the church deals with today. Placing emphasis on the Spirit can never detract from the Father or Son as you and Laamchen seem to be accusing some of unless they are ONLY emphasing the Holy Spirit to the exclusion of Father and Son.

Nope! Sorry, Cass, but there you go again!
Gee, It would be nice to dialogue with you some time, but you have this insideous insistance on twisting and misrepresenting nearly every thing I say, which doesn't seem like an 'accident' anymore, nor is it cute, sorry, but seems pretty apparently an attempt to antagonize.
I guess old habits die hard, eh?

I never criticized placing emphasis on the Holy Spirit, .... you're not THAT stupid, you don't need to pretend to be.
I clearly said OVER-emphasis, and you know it.
Your false accusation against Lämmchen and me isn't going to work, sorry.

Inever mentioned ONLY Holy Spirit, and never mentioned TO THE EXCLUSION of Father/Son, just that some OVER-EMPHASIZE THE HOLY SPIRIT AND IN DOING SO PLACE HIM ABOVE THE FATHER OR THE SON, who are clearly CO-EQUALS, which is what I stated before, and now that you've read it twice, and even in nice bold letters so you can see, maybe you can avoid the misrepresentations and false accusations. Okay now?