Greece Votes No On Bailout

psalms 91

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Greece rejected austerity measures and is in danger of running out of money and defaulting. What do you see happening because of this?
 

Ruth

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I don't know what choices they have available besides a bailout, do you?
 

psalms 91

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They can renegotiate providing the EU will, they can default, they can run out of money, there are really no good options for them.
 

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They can renegotiate providing the EU will, they can default, they can run out of money, there are really no good options for them.

That is what I thought, too.
 

psalms 91

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Hoping that the common people dont get hurt to bad
 

MoreCoffee

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Looks like they cut a deal but Germany seems all mean about it - you'd think that they might remember how much debt they were forgiven after WW II and how much money was given to them to rebuild. I guess people always look at things selfishly. Maybe that is why the Greeks were so profligate with the money they had before ...
 
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psalms 91

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I think the Germans are mad about their refusal of the previous deal
 

tango

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Greece rejected austerity measures and is in danger of running out of money and defaulting. What do you see happening because of this?

Either Greece is hosed, or we're all hosed. Most likely the latter.

If Greece leaves the euro they will have to revert to some other currency. The most obvious course of action is to go back to using the drachma. Since the government can't pay its bills it is almost certain that the drachma would drop substantially in value almost instantly, leaving the Greek people impoverished and all imported goods cripplingly expensive. This option would result in the Greek debts being more or less written off because they wouldn't be able to pay them, so lots of international banks would end up losing billions. There would be huge amounts of political egg on political faces as the euro project would be seen to have failed. International speculators would look to figure which weaker euro economy would be next out and pile pressure on them, so the likes of Italy, Portugal, Spain and Ireland could be expected to come under fire and potentially be forced out of the euro. Odds are high that ultimately European taxpayers will end up picking up the bill.

If Greece stays in the euro they will need a huge bailout, which makes little long term sense when the problem is that they can't pay their existing debts. The huge bailout will come from the same banks who are already exposed to more than Greece can ever repay. The austerity required to repay the debts will probably lead to civil unrest sooner or later as personal debts don't go away even if you lose your job. If a collapsing currency wipes out the real value of your debt it still doesn't help much if you don't have any income to speak of to cover it. Of course if your debt is in euros and your income is in rapidly devaluing drachma you're really hosed. So that then leads back towards the first scenario, if the people rise up and demand the country leaves the euro.

Since the Greek Syriza government is a hard-left government, if they do get their way in Europe and get a lot of their debt written off then other governments across Europe will be on very shaky ground. Such an outcome could do little other than mobilise the hard-left parties in the weaker nations, so the current governments would face a very real threat of losing power so Syriza-like parties who would run on a similar platform of going to Europe and refusing to pay their debts. It's very true that if you owe the bank $1m you've got a major problem but if you owe the bank $100m the bank has a major problem.

The real fun comes with guessing just what weird financial concoctions are dreamed up behind closed doors, because one way or the other the taxpayer is going to end up with the bill. The banks don't want to lose money, the politicians don't want to lose influence, and the taxpayers who get stuck with the bill are too busy arguing over minor political differences and Kim Kardashian's latest exploits to unite and turf the career politicians out of office.
 

psalms 91

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Either Greece is hosed, or we're all hosed. Most likely the latter.

If Greece leaves the euro they will have to revert to some other currency. The most obvious course of action is to go back to using the drachma. Since the government can't pay its bills it is almost certain that the drachma would drop substantially in value almost instantly, leaving the Greek people impoverished and all imported goods cripplingly expensive. This option would result in the Greek debts being more or less written off because they wouldn't be able to pay them, so lots of international banks would end up losing billions. There would be huge amounts of political egg on political faces as the euro project would be seen to have failed. International speculators would look to figure which weaker euro economy would be next out and pile pressure on them, so the likes of Italy, Portugal, Spain and Ireland could be expected to come under fire and potentially be forced out of the euro. Odds are high that ultimately European taxpayers will end up picking up the bill.

If Greece stays in the euro they will need a huge bailout, which makes little long term sense when the problem is that they can't pay their existing debts. The huge bailout will come from the same banks who are already exposed to more than Greece can ever repay. The austerity required to repay the debts will probably lead to civil unrest sooner or later as personal debts don't go away even if you lose your job. If a collapsing currency wipes out the real value of your debt it still doesn't help much if you don't have any income to speak of to cover it. Of course if your debt is in euros and your income is in rapidly devaluing drachma you're really hosed. So that then leads back towards the first scenario, if the people rise up and demand the country leaves the euro.

Since the Greek Syriza government is a hard-left government, if they do get their way in Europe and get a lot of their debt written off then other governments across Europe will be on very shaky ground. Such an outcome could do little other than mobilise the hard-left parties in the weaker nations, so the current governments would face a very real threat of losing power so Syriza-like parties who would run on a similar platform of going to Europe and refusing to pay their debts. It's very true that if you owe the bank $1m you've got a major problem but if you owe the bank $100m the bank has a major problem.

The real fun comes with guessing just what weird financial concoctions are dreamed up behind closed doors, because one way or the other the taxpayer is going to end up with the bill. The banks don't want to lose money, the politicians don't want to lose influence, and the taxpayers who get stuck with the bill are too busy arguing over minor political differences and Kim Kardashian's latest exploits to unite and turf the career politicians out of office.
How about doctors suggesting the elderly that are on social security and medicare and in their view are draining resources, will they be encouraged to end it or worse yet be forced to?
 

brinny

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i dunno, but i'm praying for Greece at this very pivotal time...
 

tango

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How about doctors suggesting the elderly that are on social security and medicare and in their view are draining resources, will they be encouraged to end it or worse yet be forced to?

Unlikely to happen. The powers that be need to prevent a civil uprising. It's hard to see much else happening once enough people realise that it's their granny who is earmarked for termination to save a few euros.

Even those who would happily suggest that Someone Else's granny is sent to the euthanasia clinic to save a bit of cash are unlikely to be thrilled at the very same idea when it's their own granny.
 

brinny

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Unlikely to happen. The powers that be need to prevent a civil uprising. It's hard to see much else happening once enough people realise that it's their granny who is earmarked for termination to save a few euros.

Even those who would happily suggest that Someone Else's granny is sent to the euthanasia clinic to save a bit of cash are unlikely to be thrilled at the very same idea when it's their own granny.

the only thing preventing it would be the thought of a "civil uprising"?
 

tango

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the only thing preventing it would be the thought of a "civil uprising"?

Not necessarily - I may not have worded my post as well as I might have done.

What I was trying to say was that even if the powers that be considered forced euthanasia of the old, the weak, the sick, the poor, whatever group(s) were deemed "not useful", the chances are it would result in a civil uprising. Not to say that the powers that be would seek to bump off huge swathes of economically unproductive people if they thought they could get away with it.

Sorry for a rather poor choice of words on my part.
 

brinny

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Not necessarily - I may not have worded my post as well as I might have done.

What I was trying to say was that even if the powers that be considered forced euthanasia of the old, the weak, the sick, the poor, whatever group(s) were deemed "not useful", the chances are it would result in a civil uprising. Not to say that the powers that be would seek to bump off huge swathes of economically unproductive people if they thought they could get away with it.

Sorry for a rather poor choice of words on my part.

I have no confidence in the powers that be....they should NEVER have that much power.

How scary.

Thank you kindly.
 

psalms 91

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Even scarier there are a lot of young people who would have no compunction to doing exactly that and we all know that many of the so called elite rich want population control
 

tango

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Even scarier there are a lot of young people who would have no compunction to doing exactly that and we all know that many of the so called elite rich want population control

Population control makes a lot of sense in many ways, it's just that there are so many different ways of achieving a reduction in population.

Someone who supports the idea of encouraging people to have fewer children is very different from someone who looks to execute entire swathes of society, even if their long term goals are superficially similar.

The problems we have are that the planet can only support so many people before it runs out of resources and even if we all lived like the Amish there's only so much capacity to grow food (although I suspect the world would be a better place if more people did focus on living a simple life rather than seeking endless luxury on tap). But if we reduce the number of children our social and economic model breaks completely because fewer and fewer taxpayers end up expected to support an ever-growing base of retired folks. Somewhere along the line at least one generation is going to pay a lot of money into a system that gives them nothing in return, all the while being expected to pay again for their own retirement. And that doesn't work because most people don't make enough money to save for their own pension while being taxed to pay for everyone else's.
 

psalms 91

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Voluntary reduction through childbirth is not what I meant, I am talking forced euthanasia and there are quite a few who would support it
 

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Voluntary reduction through childbirth is not what I meant, I am talking forced euthanasia and there are quite a few who would support it
Kill all the old folks?

I am against that!

I am one of 'em :p
 

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Even scarier there are a lot of young people who would have no compunction to doing exactly that and we all know that many of the so called elite rich want population control
It would seem to me that if someone wanted population control they would want to force people to get fixed not kill the people who could no longer reproduce, anyway.
 
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