Isn't it time for you all to repent of schism?

[MoreCoffee]

Just because he is listed first doesn't mean that he became the leader of the early church. Where do you find that specific information?

I get the information about saint Peter being the leader of the band of apostles from both scripture and from the early church fathers, that is, from sacred tradition. What better source could I go to? Surely not to my own personal interpretations of scripture, down that path is nothing but factionalism and divisions.

Peter did a lot of good as one of the disciples/apostles, but he was only one of the leaders of the early church with Jesus' brother James and the others.

Amen, the Catholic church has always had a plurality of leaders, they are the bishops of the church. I wonder that Protestants can be so convinced that in the Catholic Church only the pope leads, that is a deeply flawed view of Catholic teaching and practise.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Jesus was using Peter as an illustration of a rock by pointing at his confession of faith, not as a single ruler of the church.

That, sir, is incorrect. Consider closely the words spoken by the Lord. He addresses Saint Peter, saying, "You are Peter, and upon this rock, I will build my church..." The use of "you" is singular, indicating he is speaking directly to Saint Peter, not to all the apostles, but solely to Saint Peter. He proclaims that Simon, son of John, has received the revelation that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, from God himself, not from any mortal man. He states, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah: for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock, I will build my church; and the gates of Hades will not overcome it." The Lord then continues, addressing only Saint Peter, "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven: whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." Thus, one cannot depart from this passage without acknowledging that the Lord spoke to a single individual, whom he appointed as both the foundation and the leader of the Church.

 

[BruceLeiter]

That, sir, is incorrect. Consider closely the words spoken by the Lord. He addresses Saint Peter, saying, "You are Peter, and upon this rock, I will build my church..." The use of "you" is singular, indicating he is speaking directly to Saint Peter, not to all the apostles, but solely to Saint Peter. He proclaims that Simon, son of John, has received the revelation that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, from God himself, not from any mortal man. He states, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah: for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock, I will build my church; and the gates of Hades will not overcome it." The Lord then continues, addressing only Saint Peter, "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven: whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." Thus, one cannot depart from this passage without acknowledging that the Lord spoke to a single individual, whom he appointed as both the foundation and the leader of the Church.

However, the phrase "this rock" may also refer to his profession of faith, not directly to Peter, because all true Christian churches profess to believe in the essential beliefs of the Trinity, Jesus' divine and human natures, the inspiration of the Bible, God as Creator of the universe, and that the only way to the Father's acceptance is through the death and resurrection of Jesus. He was probably in the situation just thinking, like most Jews' hopes, that Jesus would take over rulership of the country by making the disciples his main advisors. Jesus knew the true meaning of Peter's profession and how it would turn out.

Soon afterwards, Peter tried to stop Jesus' destiny of death and resurrection, and Jesus said that he was a tool of Satan then. He wasn't living up to his name or profession of faith at that time, given Jesus' plans, which he made clear. But the disciples, including Peter, had a different mindset.

 

[MoreCoffee]

all true Christian churches profess to believe in the essential beliefs of the Trinity, Jesus' divine and human natures,

Both the most blessed Doctrine of the Holy Trinity and the doctrine of the incarnation of God in Jesus Christ were defined by Catholic church councils long before any Protestant denomination existed. Also, long before any protestant distinctive doctrine existed. No sola fide, no sola scriptura, no believer's baptism only, no symbolic "Lord's supper", no Predestination as taught by Calvinists, none of these doctrines was taught by the Catholic church when the first Nicene council was called nor since.

So, dear separated brother, is it not time to repent of the old schism of the founders of Protestantism and come home to the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church?

 

[BruceLeiter]

Both the most blessed Doctrine of the Holy Trinity and the doctrine of the incarnation of God in Jesus Christ were defined by Catholic church councils long before any Protestant denomination existed. Also, long before any protestant distinctive doctrine existed. No sola fide, no sola scriptura, no believer's baptism only, no symbolic "Lord's supper", no Predestination as taught by Calvinists, none of these doctrines was taught by the Catholic church when the first Nicene council was called nor since.

So, dear separated brother, is it not time to repent of the old schism of the founders of Protestantism and come home to the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church?

No, it's not time until the Roman Catholic Church repents of adding an extra-biblical, authoritative tradition in addition to the Bible.

 

[MoreCoffee]

No, it's not time until the Roman Catholic Church repents of adding an extra-biblical, authoritative tradition in addition to the Bible.

But the Church doesn't derive its authority from scripture. The apostle Paul wrote, "you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth."

 

[BruceLeiter]

But the Church doesn't derive its authority from scripture. The apostle Paul wrote, "you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth."

The Church is all over the world in various groups who worship and serve the Triune God and look to Jesus' sacrifice for God's forgiveness and Jesus' resurrection for their new life lived for his honor. I include the Roman Catholic Church in that group along with many Protestant groups along with their converts in many countries. The universal church is much more than your group.

 

[BruceLeiter]

Repent of schism from the one Church that Jesus said he was building. Surely no one really believes that Jesus said

"And on this rock, I will build a multiplicity of denominations and independent churches"​

​

Protestants are not united outwardly in form, but all true Christians of all groups, including Catholics, are united inwardly and spiritually in one body.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Protestants are not united outwardly in form, but all true Christians of all groups, including Catholics, are united inwardly and spiritually in one body.

If you stopped at "Protestants are not united" I'd agree. But you didn't.

 

[Lanman87]

I am a catholic, because I'm part of the universal church. Which is made up of all who hold a genuine living faith in Christ.

The reason there are denominations is because we are imperfect humans who only "see in a mirror dimly"

1 Cor 13:12: "For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known". NIV

Mankind, through the centuries has filled in the "unknown parts" with opinion, speculation, personal bias, personal experience, and cultural influence. We create additional beliefs and traditions based on our own understanding. Or we discard beliefs that don't fit into our personal worldview and experiences.

The good news is the Grace of God is greater than our imperfection and our understanding (or lack thereof).

That is why eternity will be filled with Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Baptist, Pentecostals, Methodist, and folks from the non-denominational church in the strip mall. Sadly, Hell will also be full of people from all those groups. Even people faithful to follow the "rules", traditions, and moral teachings of those groups will find themself separated from God for eternity.

The determining factor will not be "Did I go to mass/worship" , "Do I attend the right church/denomination", or even "Do I seek to help people in need".

The determining factor will be "Am I united to Christ by genuine/living faith".

And if we are united by Christ in a genuine/living faith then we are spiritual brothers and sisters with every other human being who has ever also been united with Christ by faith (the ecclesia or church) . We may not agree with them, we may not like them, and we may even shun them (just like with our physical siblings) but we are bound to each other spiritually, just as humans siblings are bound to each other by blood and family ties.

So there is no reason to repent of schism. I am not is schism with Christ or His Church. I am united to both because I am united to Christ by faith.

 

[BruceLeiter]

If you stopped at "Protestants are not united" I'd agree. But you didn't.

So, do you think that there are any true Christians or believers in the Triune God of the Bible outside of Roman Catholicism?

 

[MoreCoffee]

So, do you think that there are any true Christians or believers in the Triune God of the Bible outside of Roman Catholicism?

There are many, many who are separated brethren (inclusive of women and children). They are called by God and because of family and history are in a Protestant denomination. Our prayer for them is that God, in his infinite mercy, will bring them home to his one holy catholic and apostolic church in their due time.

 

[BruceLeiter]

There are many, many who are separated brethren (inclusive of women and children). They are called by God and because of family and history are in a Protestant denomination. Our prayer for them is that God, in his infinite mercy, will bring them home to his one holy catholic and apostolic church in their due time.

Where in the Bible do you find that teaching, MoreCoffee? Maybe, Martin Luther and John Calvin had legitimate, biblical reasons to separate Protestants from the RCC. I think that they did. We still have good reasons, that is, the huge number of traditional doctrines that your church has concocted that aren't Bible-based, alongside of the Bible's teachings. Those ideas about Mary and your praying to her as a human and to the saints, for example, are a huge mountain for us Protestants to climb in order to re-join you. We stick with the teachings that we should pray to God the Father through Jesus, which contradicts "objects" of your prayers. Your Popes are not allowed to add to Scripture with doctrines that deny the Bible's inspired words.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Where in the Bible do you find that teaching, MoreCoffee?

The Ephesian disciples that saint Paul found.

Maybe, Martin Luther and John Calvin had legitimate, biblical reasons to separate Protestants from the RCC.

They should have debated their issues within the church to test the resilience of their claims. However, instead of engaging in debate, they chose to leave the church and establish their own.

I think that they did.

Truth transcends opinion, both today and in the sixteenth century. There is no compelling reason to abandon the church established by Jesus. Any other church fundamentally represents a human endeavor established without divine intervention.

We still have good reasons, that is, the huge number of traditional doctrines that your church has concocted that aren't Bible-based, alongside of the Bible's teachings.

I challenge you to list the so-called "fabricated" doctrines which you believe are "not based on the Bible". We can then examine them individually, perhaps in separate discussions.

Those ideas about Mary and your praying to her as a human and to the saints, for example, are a huge mountain for us Protestants to climb in order to re-join you.

Open your eyes and explore for yourself; read the "Old Testament Apocrypha" that Martin Luther and his followers dismissed. Discover its contents. Open your eyes to Saint Paul's teachings about the great cloud of witnesses, his enumeration of the heroes of faith, and the Old Testament saints' prayers for their deceased compatriots and requests for angelic intercession. Refer to a Catholic catechism for an accurate explanation of Catholic teachings, rather than the claims made by opponents of Catholicism. Open your eyes and discern who has misled you.

We stick with the teachings that we should pray to God the Father through Jesus, which contradicts "objects" of your prayers. Your Popes are not allowed to add to Scripture with doctrines that deny the Bible's inspired words.

You adhere to doctrines passed down by human tradition. You combine a Jewish Tanakh with a Catholic New Testament and consider it a bible, yet it is not. You accept a human tradition that omits seven books from the inspired scriptures and disregards portions of two others. Every Protestant denomination was founded by someone other than Jesus Christ. In contrast, the Catholic Church claims Jesus Christ as its founder, with Saint Peter and the other eleven apostles initiating an unbroken line of apostolic succession that continues to this day.

 

[Uncle_Sol]

the misdeeds of individuals within any religious group do not characterize the entire group

And neither does its onion-like (and eyewatering) organisational "set of outlines" (and conflicting affiliations of whatever "communion"). Jesus said bear one another's burdens, not carry organisational baggage further than you have to. "This" rock means the place where they were standing which may not have been all that lush or buttercup strewn (and in an unfashionable district) - as metaphor for a belief in Jesus as Christ and Son of Living God, which would serve in any low-status location (like worshipping in Spirit and truth does).

 

[MoreCoffee]

And neither does its onion-like (and eyewatering) organisational "set of outlines" (and conflicting affiliations of whatever "communion").

It appears that Protestant groups have numerous communions. In contrast, Catholics partake in a single Holy Eucharist, which forms the cornerstone of our faith community. This divine ordinance brings us great joy, as we are honored to partake in it and cherish the grace of God that it bestows upon us.

Jesus said bear one another's burdens, not carry organisational baggage further than you have to.

We carry each other's burdens and continually pray for one another. It is wonderful.

"This" rock means the place where they were standing which may not have been all that lush or buttercup strewn (and in an unfashionable district) - as metaphor for a belief in Jesus as Christ and Son of Living God, which would serve in any low-status location (like worshipping in Spirit and truth does).

The Lord proclaimed, "And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it." The gates of the netherworld cannot challenge a mere place, for places simply exist without contention. However, Saint Peter is the Rock; his name was once Simon, but the Lord renamed him Rock, signifying that he was chosen to be the steadfast foundation of His church.

 

[Uncle_Sol]

It appears that Protestant groups have numerous communions. In contrast, Catholics partake in a single Holy Eucharist, which forms the cornerstone of our faith community. This divine ordinance brings us great joy, as we are honored to partake in it and cherish the grace of God that it bestows upon us ...

The Lord proclaimed, "And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it." The gates of the netherworld cannot challenge a mere place, for places simply exist without contention. However, Saint Peter is the Rock; his name was once Simon, but the Lord renamed him Rock, signifying that he was chosen to be the steadfast foundation of His church.

The rock is the belief expressed in that place (post 55).

To remember Him is to honour the gift of Holy Spirit in those smaller than oneself, if one is a leader - a challenge to all the churches.

Real Presence is effective when these beliefs are alive in those present.

You haven't reckoned on what will happen if it entered our heads to clamour to "join" your outfit, because we'll hold up the mirror in front of you. Your lesser diversity of outward custom may not be greatly more worth than our greater diversity of outward customs, given the equal amounts of dispute as to meaning and poor dynamics.

I don't think you are good at discerning "time".

 

[MoreCoffee]

The rock is the belief expressed in that place (post 55).

Show me where the passage asserts that, please.

Real Presence is effective when these beliefs are alive in those present.

What do you mean? What's "real presence" and what has it to do with the beliefs of "those present"?

You haven't reckoned on what will happen if it entered our heads to clamour to "join" your outfit, because we'll hold up the mirror in front of you. Your lesser diversity of outward custom may not be greatly more worth than our greater diversity of outward customs, given the equal amounts of dispute as to meaning and poor dynamics.

We'd be welcoming but hesitant to receive all your quirky complaints. Take the time to learn the faith first and then formulate clear and cogent critiques if you have any objections.

I don't think you are good at discerning "time".

It looks like it is 06:44 here.

 

[Uncle_Sol]

p.s I don't declare an interest, as it is likely to derail the substance of the discussion. I hope I have not been blunter than was in fact intended to be elicited. "Schism" is itself relative. I think Jesus likes plurality at some level as it can allow for sincerity. St Paul says do as you are convinced to do, with generosity towards consciences.

 

[Uncle_Sol]

another p.s Works of mercy are a thing christians should do for each other without implicating detail of doctrinal, sacramental or organisational matters. Joining in threads is a way of lessening schism already so thank you for the opportunity!