Gay children are 'children of God', Pope tells parents

[Jazzy]

https://www.thetablet.co.uk/news/13387/gay-children-are-children-of-god-pope-tells-parents

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Doesn't this conflict with Catholic traditional teachings? (Why or Why Not)

 

[JRT]

It has long been thought that a homosexual orientation was a choice and a perversion. However, I do not think that this has ever been an official church teaching. Over the past decades scientific and psychological research has shown that it is, in the vast majority of cases, not a choice and is in fact part of the normal range of sexuality.

There is no such thing as a homosexual lifestyle, no such thing as a heterosexual lifestyle --- only individual human beings who have completely unique identities and inclinations to love and be loved, and if God is God --- God has placed them there.

~~~ John Pavlovitch

 

[Josiah]

https://www.thetablet.co.uk/news/13387/gay-children-are-children-of-god-pope-tells-parents

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Doesn't this conflict with Catholic traditional teachings? (Why or Why Not)

This pope is NOTORIOUS for saying stuff that isn't exactly kosher (LOL) - at least as it sounds. But here....

The part that "disagrees" with traditional Catholic teaching is that a pagan is a child of God. Nope. As a Catholic, I was taught that only those with faith are "children of God" We are all CREATIONS of God... we are all LOVED by God... we are all BLESSED by God.... but only those with faith are specifically His "children."

I don't think contemporary Catholicism (or Christianity in general) condemns a "same gender" ORIENTATION per se (although some would include it under "original sin") - ALL of us have a propensity to sin (although not necessarily the same sins), we ALL have a sinful nature (nothin' unique about gays). The issue in Catholicism is what we DO about that..... do we repent and use the grace of God to BEHAVE morally? OR do we embrace sin, tell the Devil "Get behind me and push!" and demand that everyone approve of our sin?

IF JRT above is right, then I'm WAY over on the "hetero" side of his scale.... that's my "orientation", not chosen but very much in place. Now, that does NOT mean it's okay for me to have sex with every female I see, there is a MORALITY, a BEHAVIOR, expected of me... including that I remain a virgin to my wedding day (which I did, as did my wife). Having an orientation does NOT justify sinful behavior.... perhaps the issue is not whether one has this or that "orientation" (we ALL have a sinful one!) but what we are DOING.




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[JRT]

The part that "disagrees" with traditional Catholic teaching is that a pagan is a child of God. Nope. As a Catholic, I was taught that only those with faith are "children of God" We are all CREATIONS of God... we are all LOVED by God... we are all BLESSED by God.... but only those with faith are specifically His "children."

Actually Paul disagrees with you. When he was in Athens debating with the pagan philosophers he said that all humans are children of God in Acts 17:28-29.

 

[tango]

I can't comment on traditional Catholic teachings so can't really cover that side of things.

I think one major issue with the term "gay" is that it is used to describe people with homosexual desires as well as those indulging in physical homosexual activity. People with desires that don't precisely match my own aren't inherently sinful for having those desires - the desire to do something sinful is merely a temptation.

It's a great shame that matters relating to homosexuality seem to become elevated in the minds of some, as if there's a general layer of sinfulness, most of which is apparently OK because "everyone does it" (meaning "I do it and don't see a problem with it") and then there are the nasty icky homosexuals who do - you know - THAT, and THAT is just disgusting (meaning "I wouldn't do it").

As a heterosexual man it's easy to point fingers at gay people - it's safe (arguably too safe) - I can point fingers freely knowing I'll never be caught in the thing I vocally condemn. It's a little less safe to point and shout about things that might one day come back to bite me. I'll never be caught in a compromising position with another man but as a heterosexual man it's harder to absolutely rule out the possibility that one day I might be tempted by another woman. I'm not sure God would be any less displeased with that than with a guy getting it on with another guy.

 

[Josiah]

Actually Paul disagrees with you. When he was in Athens debating with the pagan philosophers he said that all humans are children of God in Acts 17:28-29.

Nope. Quoting a pagan, Paul says we are all OFFSPRING of God. Genos. Genus, species. Are all homo spaiens of that SPECIES? Yes. Does the species go back to Adam and Eve? Yes. Did God CREATE people? Yes. He also created bunny rabbits, does that make bunny rabbits His "CHILDREN?"

John 1:12-13, "But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."

Consider also Acts 13:10 and Ephesians 2:3. All born in the flesh are OFFSPRING, but only those who "receive Him" and are "born of God" are CHILDREN of God. As the Bible teaches and as I was taught in my Catholic days.



IF the Pope was saying that all created things are "CHILDREN of God" or even all homo sapiens are - then he is contradicting both Scripture and Catholicism (or more likely, just being his sloppy self; he's notorious for that). IF he was saying that all CHRISTIANS (including gays) are CHILDREN of God, then he is being both Catholic and biblical.




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[JRT]

I would characterize your interpretation as being that of Christian exceptionalism. It strongly resembles American exceptionalism in that it unnecessarily demeans and makes enemies of the very people we are trying to reach.

 

[Josiah]

I would characterize your interpretation as being that of Christian exceptionalism. It strongly resembles American exceptionalism in that it unnecessarily demeans and makes enemies of the very people we are trying to reach.

Sorry that genos is not tekna and that your claim is contradicted by Scripture.


I simply pointed out your claim that the Bible states that everyone is, specifically, a CHILD of God is simply wrong (and of course you couldn't find a verse that so indicates). And that if the Pope meant that all created things or even just all those with the DNA of homo sapiens are specifically the CHILDREN of God, then he has taken a position contrary to both Scripture and Catholicism. But I noted he probably didn't mean that, rather that all CHRISTIANS (including gays) are the children of God, a position I would agree is both Catholic and biblical.

Are we all God's children?

God is the creator of everyone and everything, so in a sense, He is the "Father" of all creation, but it is not in a literal sense.

carm.org

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[JRT]

The words of scripture do not offend me. They simply are what they are and in some cases they represent societal mores that are no longer applicable and can be hurtful.

 

[Josiah]

The words of scripture ... simply are what they are

Right. They do NOT state what you claim they do.

Nowhere does the Bible state that all people are specifically the "CHILDREN OF GOD." Indeed, that claim flies in the face John 1:12-13, etc., etc.,etc.



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[tango]

The words of scripture do not offend me. They simply are what they are and in some cases they represent societal mores that are no longer applicable and can be hurtful.

Honestly, "can be hurtful" is about as lame a theological argument as it gets. I don't imagine Jesus cared much about "being hurtful" when he called the Pharisees a brood of vipers, or whitewashed tombs.

What matters is what is true. If the truth is hurtful we don't get to find a different truth, we get to deal with the truth as it is. If the truth is that homosexual activity is sinful we don't get to say that we really want to do it anyway and so it doesn't matter - we either accept the truth or we reject it.

 

[Josiah]

What matters is what is true.

... and what is undeniably true is that NOWHERE does the Bible state that everyone is a child of God. Indeed, that claim runs very counter to Scripture. One may not like that, but that's the truth. One may have the personal opinion that Ford Mustangs are specifically the children of God, but claiming that SCRIPTURE specifically states that is... well.... obviously....



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[Faithhopeandcharity]

I would characterize your interpretation as being that of Christian exceptionalism. It strongly resembles American exceptionalism in that it unnecessarily demeans and makes enemies of the very people we are trying to reach.

Well there was a only one true church the ark of salvation!

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

By their fruits you shall know them

is Francis a valid pope? Does he teach the catholic faith or the faith of the progressive modernists?
Athanasius Creed!
(From the early church)

Whoever desires to be saved must above all hold to the catholic faith.

Anyone who does not keep it whole and entire will doubtless perish eternally.

 

[Andrew]

By their fruits you shall know them

is Francis a valid pope? Does he teach the catholic faith or the faith of the progressive modernists?
Athanasius Creed!
(From the early church)

Whoever desires to be saved must above all hold to the catholic faith.

Anyone who does not keep it whole and entire will doubtless perish eternally.

Paul sums up the faith short, sweet and simple for everyone who comes to the knowledge of the Lord and believes.

The RCC was too heavy a yoke for me to uphold and maintain, if the Pope has the power to allow unbelievers into Heaven then so be it, I'm not jumping the fence along with them.

 

[Lamb]

By their fruits you shall know them

is Francis a valid pope? Does he teach the catholic faith or the faith of the progressive modernists?
Athanasius Creed!
(From the early church)

Whoever desires to be saved must above all hold to the catholic faith.

Anyone who does not keep it whole and entire will doubtless perish eternally.

That's catholic with a small c meaning universal. Not Roman Catholic Church.

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

Paul sums up the faith short, sweet and simple for everyone who comes to the knowledge of the Lord and believes.

The RCC was too heavy a yoke for me to uphold and maintain, if the Pope has the power to allow unbelievers into Heaven then so be it, I'm not jumping the fence along with them.

Where eph 2?

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

That's catholic with a small c meaning universal. Not Roman Catholic Church.

There is only one Jn 10:16

 

[Andrew]

There is only one Jn 10:16

What about the great schism? What do you make of the EOC?

 

[Lamb]

There is only one Jn 10:16

That verse refers to God's church which consists of all believers. Not just your denomination.