Faith in self does not justify

[Lamb]

My conscience tells me when I am guilty.

I will not pretend as if I do not have a conscience.

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It's actually God's Law telling you that you are guilty...guilty of sin. You can't help but sin because you live in a body that still sins. If you think you were no longer sinning you wouldn't die because the wages of sin is death. But we all die so we are still tainted by the effects of sin. And the Law reminds us of that.

The Gospel is different because it doesn't accuse you of that sin. It relieves you of that guilt because of Jesus's death by declaring you as "justified". Not partially justified. You are justified because of Christ and it is only by grace through faith that you apprehend it, not by any efforts on your part or works you think you still need to do. You cannot justify yourself.

When you stand before God on Judgment Day, you can either look to yourself and your efforts and works where sin still permeates through anything you do or you can point to Jesus who justifies you. Having Jesus as your Savior means God declares you Not Guilty! All those sins of things you should have done but didn't do or did do but didn't quite do them right (like loving God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself...no one can do that perfectly) are forgiven because of Jesus. God has accepted the sacrifice on the cross and has declared you Not Guilty of those sins! Trust in what happened at the cross.

 

[popsthebuilder]

It's actually God's Law telling you that you are guilty...guilty of sin. You can't help but sin because you live in a body that still sins. If you think you were no longer sinning you wouldn't die because the wages of sin is death. But we all die so we are still tainted by the effects of sin. And the Law reminds us of that.

The Gospel is different because it doesn't accuse you of that sin. It relieves you of that guilt because of Jesus's death by declaring you as "justified". Not partially justified. You are justified because of Christ and it is only by grace through faith that you apprehend it, not by any efforts on your part or works you think you still need to do. You cannot justify yourself.

When you stand before God on Judgment Day, you can either look to yourself and your efforts and works where sin still permeates through anything you do or you can point to Jesus who justifies you. Having Jesus as your Savior means God declares you Not Guilty! All those sins of things you should have done but didn't do or did do but didn't quite do them right (like loving God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself...no one can do that perfectly) are forgiven because of Jesus. God has accepted the sacrifice on the cross and has declared you Not Guilty of those sins! Trust in what happened at the cross.

The conscience is closely tied to the Law of GOD; the Law of the Spirit. On that we agree.

I would like to see scripture showing that we as believers cannot help but sin. According to the Lord and Scripture and the conscience it seems at least possible. The Word of GOD says that even greater things will be done, and that we will be conformed to His image; and admonishes throughout all day to be found without fault and to repent. I do not think the Word tells us we are capable of all things in Him if that is not the case.

Everything dies. Life goes through cycles. What is the death of one small blade of grass as others shoot up towards the sun? What sin did the blind man who was such from birth commit?

You mention justification, and go further to expound on your meaning. That is that justification is whole and complete. How is such complete if one observes that which is contrary to the things of the Spirit? Are we not told the two are at enmity with one another, and also that the two will not reside at length within the same vessel?

I've gotta go; perhaps we can resume this later.

May GOD bless.

Hope all have a good day

peace

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[Josiah]

I tell you now that I am not certain of my salvation


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@popsthebuilder


I'll reaffirm https://www.christianityhaven.com/sh...ch-October-31) I invite you to read all that; participate in the thread if you so desire.


And then ask you to please submit a question to our resident pastor, please ask him regarding your uncertainty of salvation. Would you please do that? Here is the link you need: https://www.christianityhaven.com/fo...9-Ask-a-Pastor You'll see the "submit your question here." Please do that, friend.



Blessings


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What would you have me ask him?


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Please ask him why you can be certain..... The Bible says, "These things are written so that you may be certain." I think God wants us to be certain; I think other forces want us to be uncertain.

Friend, I strongly encourage you to bring this to our resident pastor.




Blessings, my friend.


- Josiah

 

[Michael]

The conscience is closely tied to the Law of GOD; the Law of the Spirit. On that we agree.

I would like to see scripture showing that we as believers cannot help but sin. According to the Lord and Scripture and the conscience it seems at least possible. The Word of GOD says that even greater things will be done, and that we will be conformed to His image; and admonishes throughout all day to be found without fault and to repent. I do not think the Word tells us we are capable of all things in Him if that is not the case.

Everything dies. Life goes through cycles. What is the death of one small blade of grass as others shoot up towards the sun? What sin did the blind man who was such from birth commit?

You mention justification, and go further to expound on your meaning. That is that justification is whole and complete. How is such complete if one observes that which is contrary to the things of the Spirit? Are we not told the two are at enmity with one another, and also that the two will not reside at length within the same vessel?

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Amen.
Honestly, the majority of churches today have been sold a bill of goods. Week after week, in many assemblies, the people come in Sunday morning in their sins, are told that God loves them the way they are, and they leave in their sins.

The Lord God is saying concerning the preacher-men today, as He told the slick salesmen prophets of old -

"But if they had stood in My counsel,
And had caused My people to hear My words,
Then they would have turned them from their evil way
And from the evil of their doings."
- Jer 23:22

And of course, as the Scripture teaches throughout, this is Repentance. True Biblical Repentance as God defines it, and Jesus and the Apostles and Prophets taught. "Go and sin no more." (John 8:11)

This notion that we 'cannot help but sin' is entirely contrary to the Bible, and has left the bulk of church-goers in a "lukewarm" state. They believe they are "justified" in His sight, yet Christ will "vomit them out of His mouth" in that Day, because they "have not resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin." (Heb 12:4). Being told again and again ad nauseam that God no longer sees their continued sins because they have 'accepted Christ', our carnal nature remains untransformed as we cling to those things we are supposed to have been set free from.

And again, a portion of Scripture that most "pastors" avoid at all costs, or misapply, shows us the heart of God, and His absolute requirement for us to behave righteously; for truly it is our "righteous acts" that will clothe us in that Day.

"Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."
- 1John 3:6-9

Amen.

God's Wisdom and Understanding to us all.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Please ask him why you can be certain..... The Bible says, "These things are written so that you may be certain." I think God wants us to be certain; I think other forces want us to be uncertain.

Friend, I strongly encourage you to bring this to our resident pastor.




Blessings, my friend.


- Josiah

Yes, doubt seems to not be of the Spirit.

Thanks.

may the peace of GOD encompass you and yours my old friend.

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[Lamb]

I would like to see scripture showing that we as believers cannot help but sin.

If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8

You mention justification, and go further to expound on your meaning. That is that justification is whole and complete. How is such complete if one observes that which is contrary to the things of the Spirit? Are we not told the two are at enmity with one another, and also that the two will not reside at length within the same vessel?

That's why distinguishing between Law & Gospel is crucial.

The Gospel tells us why we cannot self-justify and as well it tells us WHO has accomplished this:

Romans 3:23-24 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

It's right there in that verse.

 

[Lamb]

This notion that we 'cannot help but sin' is entirely contrary to the Bible,

Not true. I just gave 2 quotes from scripture that prove you to be wrong.

 

[popsthebuilder]

But that in no way negates the fact that we are to strive to not knowingly sin. It is likened to willful ignorance which is not actual ignorance at all.

Psalm 119:9


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[Lamb]

But that in no way negates the fact that we are to strive to not knowingly sin. It is likened to willful ignorance which is not actual ignorance at all.

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I've never seen anyone on CH encourage someone to sin. That's not even the point of this thread.

Even the Complete Jewish Bible translates 1 John 1:8 as If we claim not to have sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

 

[popsthebuilder]

I've never seen anyone on CH encourage someone to sin. That's not even the point of this thread.

Even the Complete Jewish Bible translates 1 John 1:8 as If we claim not to have sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

And I've never seen anyone claim to be sinless; unless you count everyone who claims to be holy while still in knowing sin. Never seen a believer claim any part of his potential to follow Christ was given him by himself either; yet here we are.

And my point is that we should ever strive to be holy regardless of if we think we are or not in the sight of GOD, but very many seem to pretty much say the opposite.

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[Lamb]

And I've never seen anyone claim to be sinless; unless you count everyone who claims to be holy while still in knowing sin. Never seen a believer claim any part of his potential to follow Christ was given him by himself either; yet here we are.

And my point is that we should ever strive to be holy regardless of if we think we are or not in the sight of GOD, but very many seem to pretty much say the opposite.

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We've had a few on here who say they no longer sin!!!

Striving to follow God's law because it is good and holy is fine and all that but God is the one who justifies (see verses in OP). You keep bringing up stuff that will never justify you. Only God does that.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Okay. Let me put it like this;

If GOD has justified the believer then that believer will rejoice at the chance to do according to HIS Word, and if they do not then they are not justified.

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[zecryphon_nomdiv]

Okay. Let me put it like this;

If GOD has justified the believer then that believer will rejoice at the chance to do according to HIS Word, and if they do not then they are not justified.

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So you decide whom God has justified based upon the works people do? Which works? Can you tell the difference between a work done to please God and a work done to please self or please the world?

 

[popsthebuilder]

So you decide whom God has justified based upon the works people do? Which works? Can you tell the difference between a work done to please God and a work done to please self or please the world?

I do not decide anything. The Bible gives us the metric plain as day. And of course man can judge for himself the things he does; if they are for self or out of love of GOD.

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[zecryphon_nomdiv]

I do not decide anything. The Bible gives us the metric plain as day. And of course man can judge for himself the things he does; if they are for self or out of love of GOD.

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You are looking to what a person does and deciding if they are justified or not.

"Okay. Let me put it like this;

If GOD has justified the believer then that believer will rejoice at the chance to do according to HIS Word, and if they do not then they are not justified."

We know a person is justified by what they confess, not what they do.

Romans 10:6-13 (NASB)

6) But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), 7) or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ (that is, to*bring Christ up from the dead).” 8) But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9) that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10) for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.11) For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.” 12) For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13) for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

 

[RichWh1]

Maybe this thread needs to exam the term "justify"?

The word “justify” means make righteous
Same Greek word used for both.

 

[Lamb]

Okay. Let me put it like this;

If GOD has justified the believer then that believer will rejoice at the chance to do according to HIS Word, and if they do not then they are not justified.

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Believers ARE justified because of Christ not because they do or don't do things. You said "If God has justified the believer" and that's strange because believers ARE justified. No ifs.

 

[Michael]

Not true. I just gave 2 quotes from scripture that prove you to be wrong.

And I have given you multitudes of entire passages of Scripture during my time in this forum that prove I am correct.

Truly, there remains a veil over the majority in the churches today. But God will have His remnant who will "come after" Jesus, and "appear with Him as He is" in that Day, because they have believed in Him and "all things" that He taught. "Do not sin anymore, so that something worse doesn’t happen to you.” - Jesus, to those He has set free.

"Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him." - 1John 3:6

May we be found among those who "know Him", because we make no excuse for sin.

Amen.

 

[Lamb]

And I have given you multitudes of entire passages of Scripture during my time in this forum that prove I am correct.

Truly, there remains a veil over the majority in the churches today. But God will have His remnant who will "come after" Jesus, and "appear with Him as He is" in that Day, because they have believed in Him and "all things" that He taught. "Do not sin anymore, so that something worse doesn’t happen to you.” - Jesus, to those He has set free.

"Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him." - 1John 3:6

May we be found among those who "know Him", because we make no excuse for sin.

Amen.

No, you have not proven that man can self-justify. All you've given is the Law that tells man what to do and not do but then it also accuses us and tells us we sin. Sin does not justify. You can try to do as much as you can but even that smallest amount of sin ruins your hard work . Even Jesus said something about that.

 

[Andrew]

My conscience tells me when I am guilty.

I will not pretend as if I do not have a conscience.

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Right, that's called conviction, all Christians have that (or should), it's a thorn in the flesh, you should always feel conviction when you sin -because with Christ in you and by the Holy Spirit -you repent (look inwards, to Him) when you feel conviction! That's the feeling we should receive as Christians instead of the feeling of self gratitude for doing something "good".
Many non believers do greater things than I, it's not a competition (showmanship) of who can be greater, but it's rest and fulfilment and comfort in knowing that the Holy Spirit is sealed in your heart and like a seed it grows and you mature in your walk with God in His grace, it's a free gift NOT earned by merits.
Jesus Christ did not come to place a heavy yoke on you but a light yoke, when you take up your cross and follow Him you are free from the bondage of sin and of death and are redeemed by His Work on the cross.
Sin shall no longer have dominion over you, you are free from it's curse and from the devils lie "you can become like God knowing good and evil for yourselves"
Indeed mankind is cursed with the ignorant belief that we can independently decide righteously what 'good' is and what 'bad' is.
Science cannot measure morality, yet they observe and conclude that all animal species remain in a perpetual moral state of perfect harmony within the group of that species... this means that humans are unpredictable and chaotic, there is no such thing as "good and evil", science believes in free will but can not measure morality (good and evil)

Let the Spirit convict you so you stay humble to the Lord, you can call it your conscious but understand that it's not the conscious of the old Adam anymore but of a new creation through Christ