Faith in self does not justify

[Lamb]

As a moderator on different boards I hear it all the time, "But he was flaming so I flamed him back". In other words, that member was trying to justify his sin.

Yesterday some churches celebrated Reformation Sunday. Reformation is really October 31 but churches celebrate it the Sunday before then. One main thing that Luther pointed out is that we can't self-justify.

In Luke 10 we see an expert in the Law asking Jesus about how to inherit eternal life and here is the following text:
Jesus responded:“What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[d]”

28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”


Many look at this text and think that because Jesus gives the expert of the Law more law that they can obey it and receive eternal life. The problem is..Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself. No one I've ever met aside from Jesus has done this. Not one single person. Not my dear mother, my loving husband or even my pastor who has devoted his life to Jesus.

For those who say that they have perfectly loved God with all their heart and their neighbors as themselves I say that if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves. See, there's the part that they forget...we still live in sinful bodies and we sin.

So there is no self-justification.

Who justifies us? Don't look to the Law. Look to the Gospel, that good news that tells you about Jesus and the cross.

Galatians 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Romans 3:23-24 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Romans 5:9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

Romans 8:33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Ones sin is between them and the righteous Judge. That shouldn't keep anyone from either desiring to do good works, or to be found doing them upon the return of their Lord.

It isn't that works of the Law of GOD save us. It is that our hands and works reflect our love and belief.

Sent from my moto g(7) supra using Tapatalk

 

[Lamb]

Ones sin is between them and the righteous Judge. That shouldn't keep anyone from either desiring to do good works, or to be found doing them upon the return of their Lord.

It isn't that works of the Law of GOD save us. It is that our hands and works reflect our love and belief.

Sent from my moto g(7) supra using Tapatalk

What we do because we're justified by God is not this topic.

 

[popsthebuilder]

What we do because we're justified by God is not this topic.

But you are speaking against works when we are told it is preferred that good or bad that we do work one way or the other.

We are not given any metric to divide works pleasing to GOD past the nature of the works, in that they should align with the fruit of the Spirit and the conscience.

No where in scripture does it say to not work. Works of iniquity are not works of the Law of the Spirit. The law of death is not the law of liberty.

We agree that boasting in self or doing for reward of man or to be seen of man is off target.

Sent from my moto g(7) supra using Tapatalk

 

[Lamb]

But you are speaking against works when we are told it is preferred that good or bad that we do work one way or the other.

We are not given any metric to divide works pleasing to GOD past the nature of the works, in that they should align with the fruit of the Spirit and the conscience.

No where in scripture does it say to not work. Works of iniquity are not works of the Law of the Spirit. The law of death is not the law of liberty.

We agree that boasting in self or doing for reward of man or to be seen of man is off target.

Sent from my moto g(7) supra using Tapatalk

I am saying that we cannot justify ourselves. That's what this thread is about. We cannot in any way do something to earn what Jesus earned for us...justification (see verses listed in post #1).

Works after that are that...works because God is with us and guiding us. But we are justified by Jesus and what HE has done. When we try to justify ourselves, we are tainted by sin.

 

[Josiah]

.


Here is THE issue: WHO is the Savior?


There really are only two places to look: To the Cross or the mirror.


IF you answer "Jesus" then Jesus is the Savior. Not you - not a bit, not at all, not now, not ever, not in any way or shape or form or manner. Salvation is entirely, wholly wrapped up in Jesus. It's entirely HIS work. HIS heart. HIS love. HIS mercy. HIS gift. HIS blessing. His life, His death, His resurrection. His Cross, His blood, His sacrifice. His righteousness, His obedience, His holiness. Not you. Not yours. If there is salvation, there is one reason: Jesus; one who accomplished this: Jesus; one to thank: Jesus. You may have some other role in some other matter, but not this. The "job" of Savior belongs to Jesus. Not you.


IF you answer "me" then you are the Savior. Not Jesus. Not a bit, not at all. Not now, not ever. Not in any way, shape or form or manner. Salvation is all wrapped up in YOU. YOUR works. YOUR will. YOUR love. YOUR efforts. YOUR merits. YOUR obedience. YOUR righteousness. YOUR holiness. YOUR sacrifice. YOUR decision. Not Jesus. Not Jesus'. Ultimately, you have one to thank: Yourself. Jesus may have some other role in some other matter, just not this one. The Savior is you.


Which is it? ALL Christianity hinges on this singular issue. Christianity stands for falls on this point.



Christianity is entirely founded, based, on this: Jesus is the Savior.
JESUS - There is no other name by which any is saved (and that included your name and mine), no one comes to the Father except by JESUS alone. Jesus is the Way.
IS Factually, really, definitely, this cannot be undermined
THE Exclusive, singular, all-sufficient,
SAVIOR Not just helper or teacher or inspiration or model.... not just possibility-maker or door-opener or offeror.... He is the one who SAVES people (rescues)...
Undermine any part of that even just a tiny bit - and Christianity crashes to the ground



The Devil works overtime, the Devil works HARD, the Devil applies all the creative tools at his disposal, to undermine that Gospel.... to get us to look less to the Cross and more in the mirror. He apples all he has to convince us that Jesus does not Save, He is NOT the Savior, He is NOT the reason: YOU are. Jesus may have made it POSSIBLE for you to be saved.... Jesus may be a divine helper.... Jesus may be the divine teacher who shows you how to save yourself.... Satan is more than willing to ascribe ANY high sounding role to Jesus that may appeal, as long as it's not The Savior. Can he appeal to your pride? Can he appeal to your since of smarts? Can he use questions you have? Can he even use Scripture (as he did with Jesus in the wilderness)? Can he even use things God said (as he did to Adam and Eve)? SURE! But you can tell it's him ... because he has one goal: Get your eyes off the Cross and on the Mirror; make Jesus as small as possible and self as big as possible.



Even Christians might answer: "Sure, Jesus is the Savior but to be saved I gotta ______________." Doesn't matter what does in the blank, whatever it is, it cancels out the first part. It destroys Jesus as the Savior and makes self the reason one is going to heaven (and Satan smiles). The Devil is just fine with "Jesus opened the door to heaven but you gotta get yourself through it." "Jesus makes it possible for all to be saved but He doesn't actually save anyone." "God helps those who help themselves." "If you do x,y,z then God rewards that with salvation." They may parrot some misuse of Scripture or some "logic" Satan used on them... they may be sincere.... but they just destroyed Christianity. Satan works HARD to make a very simple question (Who is the Savior?) as muddy and complex as he can. And sadly, just as he had success in the Garden, well, he still too often does.



Every other religion on the planet, all the FALSE religions of Satan say this....
1) We've got a problem. Sin is real, the world is broken, we are not what God desires, our future is doomed because of this.
2) God wants this solved.
3) God supplies us with all the HELP, all the divine strength and wisdom and teaching we need to fix this.
4) Each of us needs to "tap" that power/help sufficiently and obey that wisdom sufficiently - and we'll climb out of this hole (at least for self) given enough time and if we "tap" God enough and try hard enough.
NO other religion has a Savior but none is needed: each saves self.
We parrot all wrong religions when we ultimately hold that Jesus is not the Savior but the Helper, the door-opener, the offerer... when we say I don't NEED to be saved - I just need sufficient help, wisdom and time to fix it myself and climb out of this and up to God.



The Reformation - at it's core - was about this. Because of Rome's profound need for MONEY and Charles' need to get elected and stay in power, indulgence sellers preached Satan's lie. Luther (a "Doctor of the Church" with the responsibility of pointing out error in doctrine) noted this lie and how it violated Scripture, the Gospel, the Council of Orange, etc. The Catholic Church responded with a muddy, blurry cocktail that made the lies of the Indulgence sellers permissible - then turned this mess into dogma at the Council of Trent. Luther simply called the church back to the Gospel. And IF the whole discussion was not dominated by Rome's money problems, the politics of Europe at the time, the low esteem many had of Germans at the time, and the horrible corruption of Rome at that time (read about the life of Pope Alexander VI for example)... Luther probably would have succeeded and no Reformation would have happened. Who knows. But Luther's point STILL needs to be heard - and NOT only (or perhaps even especially) by the Catholic Church. Satan has never limited his ploy on those of any one denomination.




Blessings on the 502nd anniversary of the Lutheran Reformation....



- Josiah





.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Yet scripture tells us repeatedly to look in the mirror, and does not give a metric by which to judge the placement of self or another except for the motive of the works of each.

I mean I think it may be bad to not look in the mirror. I can't even imagine a believer relying on self for salvation apart from the Christ and Word of GOD. I don't know that any believer would deny Christ whatsoever, or that the Word is both their source and foundation.

Sent from my moto g(7) supra using Tapatalk

 

[Josiah]

Yet scripture tells us repeatedly to look in the mirror

Not to find the Savior but to reveal the sinner who desperately NEEDS saving.

 

[Lamb]

Yet scripture tells us repeatedly to look in the mirror, and does not give a metric by which to judge the placement of self or another except for the motive of the works of each.

I mean I think it may be bad to not look in the mirror. I can't even imagine a believer relying on self for salvation apart from the Christ and Word of GOD. I don't know that any believer would deny Christ whatsoever, or that the Word is both their source and foundation.

Sent from my moto g(7) supra using Tapatalk

We've had members here on CH who insist that we have to do our part and yet scripture tells us that it is God who justifies us (Romans 8:33).

 

[popsthebuilder]

Not to find the Savior but to reveal the sinner who desperately NEEDS saving.

Of course, yet also after having heard and believed.....it isn't past tense in actuality until perhaps when one is dead.

There is still no metric but the origin of one's works with is their love. Isn't there a parable about someone who did what was good not for the sake of it being good, but so that someone would stop nagging him? I'm not too familiar with it, but it may be worth looking into. Maybe I will get to it tonight.

I've yet to find an actual believer who denies the need for Messiah.

Sent from my moto g(7) supra using Tapatalk

 

[popsthebuilder]

We've had members here on CH who insist that we have to do our part and yet scripture tells us that it is God who justifies us (Romans 8:33).

And that those justified are sanctified.

There is no confusion.

If one follows the Christ then they aren't doing works in order to "save self" such wouldn't be their priority.

Sent from my moto g(7) supra using Tapatalk

 

[Josiah]

Of course, yet also after having heard and believed.....it isn't past tense in actuality until perhaps when one is dead.

IMO, the Savior is not me (not 1%, not 50%, not 100%) - it's JESUS. But sure, ONCE saved (in the sense of narrow justification), the CHRISTIAN is called to much - to be as perfect as God is, as Holy as God is, as Loving as God is, to serve as much as Christ served us... to forgive as we have been forgiven, to make disciples of everyone, for starters. But this is not what brings about God's gift of spiritual life - the Holy Spirit - saving faith - the change from enemy of God to child of God, you know, "salvation." No. These are what the one saved is to do.


Yes, there are MANY who deny that they need a Savior. Yes, even SAVED people who claim that, perhaps what they need was HELP but not being SAVED. There are some who claim THEY did stuff before God did anything for them, before the Holy Spirit was given to them, before God gave them any spiritual life, before they had faith and THEREFORE God "gave" them that (well, it wouldn't be a gift if they actually earned it - even in part). I've met them constantly; sometimes it gets posted here at CH. Essentially, "Yeah, Jesus saves but FIRST you gotta do ____________." Or "Sure, Jesus makes salvation possible but you gotta do ____________." If you've never encountered that, then praise God.





See https://www.christianityhaven.com/s...eran-Reformation-(Celebrated-Each-October-31) From that post....

Christianity is entirely founded, based, on this: Jesus is the Savior.
JESUS - There is no other name by which any is saved (and that included your name and mine), no one comes to the Father except by JESUS alone. Jesus is the Way.
IS Factually, really, definitely, this cannot be undermined
THE Exclusive, singular, all-sufficient,
SAVIOR Not just helper or teacher or inspiration or model.... not just possibility-maker or door-opener or offeror.... He is the one who SAVES people (rescues)...
Undermine any part of that even just a tiny bit - and Christianity crashes to the ground



The Devil works overtime, the Devil works HARD, the Devil applies all the creative tools at his disposal, to undermine that Gospel.... to get us to look less to the Cross and more in the mirror. He apples all he has to convince us that Jesus does not Save, He is NOT the Savior, He is NOT the reason: YOU are. Jesus may have made it POSSIBLE for you to be saved.... Jesus may be a divine helper.... Jesus may be the divine teacher who shows you how to save yourself.... Satan is more than willing to ascribe ANY high sounding role to Jesus that may appeal, as long as it's not The Savior. Can he appeal to your pride? Can he appeal to your since of smarts? Can he use questions you have? Can he even use Scripture (as he did with Jesus in the wilderness)? Can he even use things God said (as he did to Adam and Eve)? SURE! But you can tell it's him ... because he has one goal: Get your eyes off the Cross and on the Mirror; make Jesus as small as possible and self as big as possible.



Even Christians might answer: "Sure, Jesus is the Savior but to be saved I gotta ______________." Doesn't matter what goes in the blank, whatever it is, it cancels out the first part. It destroys Jesus as the Savior and makes self the reason one is going to heaven (and Satan smiles). The Devil is just fine with "Jesus opened the door to heaven but you gotta get yourself through it." "Jesus makes it possible for all to be saved but He doesn't actually save anyone." "God helps those who help themselves." "If you do x,y,z then God rewards that with salvation." They may parrot some misuse of Scripture or some "logic" Satan used on them... they may be sincere.... but they just destroyed Christianity. Satan works HARD to make a very simple question (Who is the Savior?) as muddy and complex as he can. And sadly, just as he had success in the Garden, well, he still too often does.



Every other religion on the planet, all the FALSE religions of Satan say this....
1) We've got a problem. Sin is real, the world is broken, we are not what God desires, our future is doomed because of this.
2) God wants this solved.
3) God supplies us with all the HELP, all the divine strength and wisdom and teaching we need to fix this.
4) Each of us needs to "tap" that power/help sufficiently and obey that wisdom sufficiently - and we'll climb out of this hole (at least for self) given enough time and if we "tap" God enough and try hard enough.
NO other religion has a Savior because none is needed: each saves self.
We parrot all wrong religions when we ultimately hold that Jesus is not the Savior but the Helper, the door-opener, the offerer... when we say I don't NEED to be saved - I just need sufficient help, wisdom and time to fix it myself and climb out of this and up to God.




.

Blessings!



- Josiah




.

 

[popsthebuilder]

IMO, the Savior is not me (not 1%, not 50%, not 100%) - it's JESUS. But sure, ONCE saved (in the sense of narrow justification), the CHRISTIAN is called to much - to be as perfect as God is, as Holy as God is, as Loving as God is, to serve as much as Christ served us... to forgive as we have been forgiven, to make disciples of everyone, for starters. But this is not what brings about God's gift of spiritual life - the Holy Spirit - saving faith - the change from enemy of God to child of God, you know, "salvation." No. These are what the one saved is to do.


Yes, there are MANY who deny that they need a Savior. Yes, even SAVED people who claim that, perhaps what they need was HELP but not being SAVED. There are some who claim THEY did stuff before God did anything for them, before the Holy Spirit was given to them, before God gave them any spiritual life, before they had faith and THEREFORE God "gave" them that (well, it wouldn't be a gift if they actually earned it - even in part). I've met them constantly; sometimes it gets posted here at CH. Essentially, "Yeah, Jesus saves but FIRST you gotta do ____________." Or "Sure, Jesus makes salvation possible but you gotta do ____________." If you've never encountered that, then praise God.





See https://www.christianityhaven.com/s...eran-Reformation-(Celebrated-Each-October-31) From that post....







Blessings!



- Josiah




.








.

So it is the placement of the word "saved" that you take issue with.

I tell you now that I am not certain of my salvation, but that I am certain of the mercy of GOD.

Does that make me detestable?

What if we couple that seeming uncertainty with the desire to be found doing the will of my Lord when He returns? Is that somehow worse than the one who claims outwardly to others that they are saved but who do not do according to purported belief?

What if we both are found doing that which is described as producing good fruit; fruit of the Spirit?



Sent from my moto g(7) supra using Tapatalk

 

[Josiah]

I tell you now that I am not certain of my salvation, but that I am certain of the mercy of GOD.

Does that make me detestable?

What if we couple that seeming uncertainty with the desire to be found doing the will of my Lord when He returns? Is that somehow worse than the one who claims outwardly to others that they are saved but who do not do according to purported belief?

What if we both are found doing that which is described as producing good fruit; fruit of the Spirit?

[MENTION=37]popsthebuilder[/MENTION]


I'll reaffirm https://www.christianityhaven.com/s...eran-Reformation-(Celebrated-Each-October-31) I invite you to read all that; participate in the thread if you so desire.


And then ask you to please submit a question to our resident pastor, please ask him regarding your uncertainty of salvation. Would you please do that? Here is the link you need: https://www.christianityhaven.com/forumdisplay.php?109-Ask-a-Pastor You'll see the "submit your question here." Please do that, friend.



Blessings


Josiah




.

 

[Lamb]

Maybe this thread needs to exam the term "justify"?

 

[popsthebuilder]

[MENTION=37]popsthebuilder[/MENTION]


I'll reaffirm https://www.christianityhaven.com/s...eran-Reformation-(Celebrated-Each-October-31) I invite you to read all that; participate in the thread if you so desire.


And then ask you to please submit a question to our resident pastor, please ask him regarding your uncertainty of salvation. Would you please do that? Here is the link you need: https://www.christianityhaven.com/forumdisplay.php?109-Ask-a-Pastor You'll see the "submit your question here." Please do that, friend.



Blessings


Josiah




.

I read that post all the way through.

I would need to see scriptural reference for the metric to be used to determine if good works are good or not other than the ones mentioned.

What would you have me ask him?

I can dig up very many verses saying or insinuating that we must work and do according to belief. I can't find me any saying good works are actually bad, or that one doing good from a sincere heart is one who is a thief or robber. Indeed the thief or robber or murderer follow the will of their father as the sheep and even the Shepard follow the will of their FATHER.

When I think of osas I think of the admonition to run the race not as if already having won. When I think of one claiming outwardly that they are saved regardless of their works I think of the man so humbled and ashamed that he couldn't even turn his head up to the sky; and the other who thought he was righteous, but who was not.

i was serious about what you would have me ask the resident pastor or what have you.

As I see it; past sins are blotted out; and past that there is no further atonement for sin knowingly done after having heard and believed; only a dreadful expectation of righteous judgement.

May the mercy of our Lord cover us all by HIS will and through our following HIS Word.

Sent from my moto g(7) supra using Tapatalk

 

[Lamb]

I can dig up very many verses saying or insinuating that we must work and do according to belief. I can't find me any saying good works are actually bad, or that one doing good from a sincere heart is one who is a thief or robber. Indeed the thief or robber or murderer follow the will of their father as the sheep and even the Shepard follow the will of their FATHER.



As I see it; past sins are blotted out; and past that there is no further atonement for sin knowingly done after having heard and believed; only a dreadful expectation of righteous judgement.

It seems you deny that Jesus died for ALL of your sins. That only SOME of your sins went to the cross? Scripture does not say that.

Jesus will not go back to the cross, that is true. But ALL of your sins were nailed there. Behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.

We cannot justify ourselves. That has been taken care of by God. In full. See verses in the OP.

Justify is a legal term meaning not guilty. When the bible says that God justifies that means that he has said we are no longer guilty of our sins. He gives us faith to believe that.

Romans 3:23-24 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

Galatians 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Do you believe that you are not guilty or will you cling to your sins and think they are not forgiven even though Jesus died?

 

[Lamb]

I have moved this thread to the World Religion & Speculative Theology forum since the Christian Theology forum is marked for those who believe in the Trinity and adhere to the Nicene Creed.

 

[popsthebuilder]

It seems you deny that Jesus died for ALL of your sins. That only SOME of your sins went to the cross? Scripture does not say that.

Jesus will not go back to the cross, that is true. But ALL of your sins were nailed there. Behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.

We cannot justify ourselves. That has been taken care of by God. In full. See verses in the OP.

Justify is a legal term meaning not guilty. When the bible says that God justifies that means that he has said we are no longer guilty of our sins. He gives us faith to believe that.

Romans 3:23-24 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

Galatians 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Do you believe that you are not guilty or will you cling to your sins and think they are not forgiven even though Jesus died?

Scripture does say that actually.

Sent from my moto g(7) supra using Tapatalk

 

[popsthebuilder]

It seems you deny that Jesus died for ALL of your sins. That only SOME of your sins went to the cross? Scripture does not say that.

Jesus will not go back to the cross, that is true. But ALL of your sins were nailed there. Behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.

We cannot justify ourselves. That has been taken care of by God. In full. See verses in the OP.

Justify is a legal term meaning not guilty. When the bible says that God justifies that means that he has said we are no longer guilty of our sins. He gives us faith to believe that.

Romans 3:23-24 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

Galatians 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Do you believe that you are not guilty or will you cling to your sins and think they are not forgiven even though Jesus died?

My conscience tells me when I am guilty.

I will not pretend as if I do not have a conscience.

Sent from my moto g(7) supra using Tapatalk