Jesus Christ, died for all

[MennoSota]

Do that. We're waiting (and have for nearly 500 years). Be the first, my friend, the first ever in history to quote the verse that states what you do.


We have given MANY, MANY Scriptures that verbatim, literally state EXACTLY what historic, biblical Christianity does - that Jesus died for "all" "everyone" "the whole world." You are forced by his horrible invention to simply spin those 180 degrees to argue all these many Scriptures "mean" the exact opposite of what they actually verbatim STATE. By that rubric, every crazy idea, every heresy, every error is "proven" because it's the opposite of what God actually says.

Apparently you reject what Jesus declares.
John 10:11,14-15
I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.

I cannot make you accept what Jesus declares. Jesus laid his life down for the sheep. It doesn't say that Jesus laid his life down for all the world.
You don't have to wait any longer my friend. Jesus tells you. Will you receive what he declares or keep following the traditional dogma you have been taught?

 

[MennoSota]

Correct. You are no different than all the other radical Calvinists in the past 500 years....you can't find a single verse that says what you do, not one verse that supports this horrible new invention of a few later-day radical Calvinists nearly 500 years ago, not one verse that proves the Bible is wrong when it so often, literally, verbatim, flat-out states that Jesus died "for all" "for everyone" "for the whole world."


Try again. But I think we all know why not one Calvinist in nearly 500 years has been able to find even one verse that contradicts all the many, many Scriptures we have shared.


1 John 2:2





.

Again, you reject scripture to hold your tradition and dogma. Apparently that is acceptable to you?
I addressed 1 John 2:2 in light of the fullness of scripture. You seem to want to isolate one sentence and force it to change the entire scope of scripture. Do you often create a theology from one sentence?

 

[Josiah]

Again, you reject scripture

As everyone knows, you have yet to give any Scripture that says what you do. Not one Calvinist since the invention of this horrible dogma has been able to find any in nearly 500 years. I have a hunch that if any such verse existed, some radical Calvinist would have found it in nearly five centuries, but maybe you'll be the first.


We have listed SCRIPTURE AFTER SCRIPTURE, many Scriptures, over and over and over again, that verbatim, literally, state the exact opposite of this horrible invention of a few later-day radical Calvinists almost 500 years ago. MANY of them. Verbatim. The exact OPPOSITE of your new unique dogma. All you can do is try to spin them 180 degrees from what they undeniably STATE to claim they all mean the exact opposite of what they verbatim state, so that dogma is the EXACT OPPOSITE of what the Bible states. It's a pretty dangerous rubic that means every error, every heresy, absurdity is dogma if it contradicts the verbatim words of so many Scriptures.


That's the reality.... as all can easily see. There's a reason even Calvinists typically reject this horrible domga so clearly contradicted in Scripture (I personally don't know a single Calvinist who agrees with it; not one). There's a reason not even the Calvinists here are supporting it. You insist on going by Scripture.... but you have not one Scripture that says what you do, and you have to radically twist SO MANY verses upside down and inside out and spin them to argue the mean THE EXACT OPPOSITE of what so very many literally, verbatim, flat-out state.... because, as everyone knows, your view is the opposite of what the Bible says.

Apparently you reject what Jesus declares. John 10:11,14-15

As I've posted many times, I fully and completely and passionately AGREE with this text and every other in the Bible. It's YOU that have taken SO MANY Scriptures, a great many of them, and insisted the "mean" the exact OPPOSITE of what they state; you are the one who reject the words of Scripture.

What you need to do with this verse too is CHANGE it; you add the word "ONLY" to the verse, so that you correct Jesus to say that He died for ONLY his sheep. You must change what He said because what He said isn't what you say. If I posted "Donald Trump is an American citizen" does that dogmatically prove that no one else is, that ONLY He is? See how silly, how absurd this point is? It's just your need to CHANGE the verse so as to put your dogma where it doesn't exist. All while you must spin so many Scriptures, so very many, that state the EXACT OPPOSITE of your dogma, that flat-out, verbatim, literally contradict it, you have to spin them 180 degrees so that you claim the mean the EXACT OPPOSITE of what they literally, verbatim, clearly state. What a profound disrespect for Scripture. What a strange way to do theology (truth being the exact opposite of what the Bible over and over and over and over again verbatim states)




.

 

[MennoSota]

As everyone knows, you have yet to give any Scripture that says what you do. Not one Calvinist since the invention of this horrible dogma has been able to find any in nearly 500 years. I have a hunch that if any such verse existed, some radical Calvinist would have found it in nearly five centuries, but maybe you'll be the first.


We have listed SCRIPTURE AFTER SCRIPTURE, many Scriptures, over and over and over again, that verbatim, literally, state the exact opposite of this horrible invention of a few later-day radical Calvinists almost 500 years ago. MANY of them. Verbatim. The exact OPPOSITE of your new unique dogma. All you can do is try to spin them 180 degrees from what they undeniably STATE to claim they all mean the exact opposite of what they verbatim state, so that dogma is the EXACT OPPOSITE of what the Bible states. It's a pretty dangerous rubic that means every error, every heresy, absurdity is dogma if it contradicts the verbatim words of so many Scriptures.


That's the reality.... as all can easily see. There's a reason even Calvinists typically reject this horrible domga so clearly contradicted in Scripture (I personally don't know a single Calvinist who agrees with it; not one). There's a reason not even the Calvinists here are supporting it. You insist on going by Scripture.... but you have not one Scripture that says what you do, and you have to radically twist SO MANY verses upside down and inside out and spin them to argue the mean THE EXACT OPPOSITE of what so very many literally, verbatim, flat-out state.... because, as everyone knows, your view is the opposite of what the Bible says.




.

Blah, blah, blah.
Scripture has been provided regarding Jesus dying only for his sheep. You can accept it or reject it.

 

[RichWh1]

Blah, blah, blah.
Scripture has been provided regarding Jesus dying only for his sheep. You can accept it or reject it.

What about the 'other sheep ' Jesus spoke about?

16*I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.
John 10:16

Who is being referred to in this passage? Could they be the others in the world? Those whom he must also save?



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[YourTruthGod]

Paul could have brushed it off and said "pfffft! i don't believe in God", so did he have a choice?

The point is that Paul had to believe and obey to get saved.

Paul had to repent of his sins before he was saved.

He didn't eat or drink for three days and he spent that time praying.

Can you imagine his prayers and how he must of cried and begged for forgiveness?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Personal attacks don't produce the truth!
Attacks on other Christians are not appropriate


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Do you really believe what you wrote?

How many personal attacks become the mainstay of arguments against a church or against a theology? I think a lot do. I've seen Calvinism questioned because John Calvin had a hand in executing Servetus. And Catholicism attacked because some pope or bishop or someone did a bad thing. Anglicanism gets attacked because Henry VIII was a bad man and he "founded" the religion. The Orthodox get attacked because Russian Orthodox and Ukrainian Orthodox are having a theological fist fight and because the different Orthodox monks in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre have physical fist fights. So it seems that personal attacks are the order of the day for many people.

 

[Andrew]

Do you really believe what you wrote?

How many personal attacks become the mainstay of arguments against a church or against a theology? I think a lot do. I've seen Calvinism questioned because John Calvin had a hand in executing Servetus. And Catholicism attacked because some pope or bishop or someone did a bad thing. Anglicanism gets attacked because Henry VIII was a bad man and he "founded" the religion. The Orthodox get attacked because Russian Orthodox and Ukrainian Orthodox are having a theological fist fight and because the different Orthodox monks in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre have physical fist fights. So it seems that personal attacks are the order of the day for many people.

Heresy was a capital punishment back then, John simply couldn't 'lie' for him anyway because he would have been executed along side the anti trinitarian heretic, anyway back to the subject

 

[MennoSota]

What about the 'other sheep ' Jesus spoke about?



Who is being referred to in this passage? Could they be the others in the world? Those whom he must also save?



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Indeed. If we read Jesus intercessory prayer in John 17 we understand who the other sheep are.
John 17:20-26 “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.”

 

[MennoSota]

The point is that Paul had to believe and obey to get saved.

Paul had to repent of his sins before he was saved.

He didn't eat or drink for three days and he spent that time praying.

Can you imagine his prayers and how he must of cried and begged for forgiveness?

Paul could not believe or obey until God saved him.
Paul would have no reason to repent of sins until God saved him.
Before the Damascus road, Paul thought his actions were noble and honorable before God. Without God's intervention, Paul would have waltzed into Damascus and continued to terrorize believers.
Can you imagine what Paul was like before God intervened and saved him?
YTG, you are all twisted up...just as Saul was before the Damascus road. This is why you cannot accept God's work of grace on behalf of the unregenerate sinner.

 

[YourTruthGod]

Paul could not believe or obey until God saved him.
Paul would have no reason to repent of sins until God saved him.
Before the Damascus road, Paul thought his actions were noble and honorable before God. Without God's intervention, Paul would have waltzed into Damascus and continued to terrorize believers.
Can you imagine what Paul was like before God intervened and saved him?
YTG, you are all twisted up...just as Saul was before the Damascus road. This is why you cannot accept God's work of grace on behalf of the unregenerate sinner.

Paul's testimony proves your beliefs to be false.

Paul did not see when when believed in Jesus.

He was still blinded.

He didn't receive the Holy Spirit yet.

Paul was not saved until after he repented.

 

[Andrew]

Paul's testimony proves your beliefs to be false.

Paul did not see when when believed in Jesus.

He was still blinded.

He didn't receive the Holy Spirit yet.

Paul was not saved until after he repented.

Paul believed God was speaking to him as soon as it happened, if he didn't he would have kept walking along, God chose him he did not choose God or he wouldn't have been persecuting believing Jews (Christians) to begin with.

 

[MennoSota]

Paul's testimony proves your beliefs to be false.

On the contrary, it proves me correct.
Galatians 1:11-17 For I would have you know, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is not man’s gospel.
For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.

For you have heard of my former life in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God violently and tried to destroy it. And I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people, so extremely zealous was I for the traditions of my fathers.

But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son to me,

Read that again until it sinks in.

in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone; nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.

Paul did not see when when believed in Jesus.

He was still blinded.

He didn't receive the Holy Spirit yet.

Paul was not saved until after he repented.

Paul did not need physical sight for God to save him.
The Apostles were saved before the Spirit fell on them in Acts 2.
Paul repented after he was saved, as do all whom God makes alive with Christ.

"But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son to me" ~ Paul the Apostle

YTG, when will you admit you are wrong? Will God have to stop you dead in your tracks on the road?

 

[YourTruthGod]

Paul believed God was speaking to him as soon as it happened, if he didn't he would have kept walking along, God chose him he did not choose God or he wouldn't have been persecuting believing Jews (Christians) to begin with.

What is your point? I already said that Paul was NOT saved when he first believed in Jesus.

 

[Andrew]

What is your point? I already said that Paul was NOT saved when he first believed in Jesus.

You are saved once you realize that you believe, you "know" God

 

[YourTruthGod]

On the contrary, it proves me correct.
Galatians 1:11-17 For I would have you know, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is not man’s gospel.
For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.

For you have heard of my former life in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God violently and tried to destroy it. And I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people, so extremely zealous was I for the traditions of my fathers.

But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son to me,

Just think about that some more.

Paul had to still believe and obey to get saved and do what he was set apart to do.

in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone; nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.
Paul did not need physical sight for God to save him.

Paul did not receive his sight until after he repented.

The Apostles were saved before the Spirit fell on them in Acts 2.

Jesus gave the apostles the Holy Spirit before that.

Paul repented after he was saved, as do all whom God makes alive with Christ.

Paul repented before Ananias even got there. And then he was baptized with the baptism of repentance.

"But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son to me" ~ Paul the Apostle

YTG, when will you admit you are wrong? Will God have to stop you dead in your tracks on the road?

You are preaching falseness. Paul believed and was not yet saved, and then he repented of his sins. Then he was saved.

 

[YourTruthGod]

You are saved once you realize that you believe, you "know" God

What?

 

[YourTruthGod]

Acts 9:11 The Lord told him, "Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying.

 

[MennoSota]

Just think about that some more.

Paul had to still believe and obey to get saved and do what he was set apart to do.



Paul did not receive his sight until after he repented.



Jesus gave the apostles the Holy Spirit before that.


Paul repented before Ananias even got there. And then he was baptized with the baptism of repentance.



You are preaching falseness. Paul believed and was not yet saved, and then he repented of his sins. Then he was saved.

You reject what God has said and insert your own opinion. There is nothing more to discuss. I dust my sandals off. Remain with your non-biblical assertions.

 

[Andrew]

What?

So Paul just for no reason believed while walking down a road, no intervention, he just all of a sudden decided to believe and repent?