Calvinism Vs Arminian

[MoreCoffee]

LOVES is a whole lot better than TULIP.

 

[Andrew]

Why would I have a doubting faith, Andrew? Is there even such a thing as doubting faith?
It seems you are merely looking for a way to get around God giving His children the faith to believe?

Well gee Menno obviously without God there would be nothing to believe in so of course belief is only possible with God.
Honestly your teaching could make many doubt their faith, you are basically cornering believers into doubting if they are even the elect or not... Why is it important for you to emphasise on the Elect (Gods business btw) why not focus on promoting the good news of Salvation for all who believe and just leave it at that?

 

[Andrew]

LOVES is a whole lot better than TULIP.

Quick recap? I couldn't find your LOVES post I saw from earlier

 

[MoreCoffee]

• Total depravity, Human nature is stricken, this is true, yet it is not erased, it is inclined to sin but it is not nothing but sinfulness, the T of TULIP is wrong. Had it been a L for Limited ability then it would be right.
• Unconditional election, Election is by God's grace and will yet God gives grace to all and desires all to be saved so evidently election from God's perspective is not limited to "the saved" but extends to all while from a human perspective election is voluntary because it corresponds to hearing, receiving, and accepting the gospel. Had this been O for Open election then it would be right because the gospel call is open to all.
• Limited atonement, Atonement is sufficient for all yet applies to those who believe because they believe and act upon their beliefs. The atoning sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ is not limited, as if it were of finite value or finite intent, God desire all to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. That is the teaching of holy scripture. Had it been V for Vicarious atonement then it would be right because Christ died on behalf (vicariously) of the faithful.
• Irresistible grace, and ... Grace is resistible and always has been. Jesus upbraided some among the Jewish people for always resisting the Holy Spirit and it is the Holy Spirit who gives grace. Had it been E for Enriching grace or Enabling grace then it would be right because God gives grace to enrich all who receive his grace and especially to enrich the faithful with every gift that they need for eternal life.
• Perseverance of the saints. Those saints who do persevere will be saved and the people who hear, believe, and then abandon the faith will not be saved. There is no guarantee that believers will without fail persevere until the end. The Lord, in Revelation, praises those who persevere and warns those who do not. Had it been S for Saves then it would be right because God saves his people from their sins and God gives grace to the faithful to enable them to persevere unto salvation. That is the good news of the gospel, that Christ died for the faithful who are saved by his life and his death and especially by his resurrection all of which are vicarious graces given to the faithful in Christ.

In short God LOVES his people. He gave them LOVE so that they would be Saved. He didn't given them a TULIP.
Limited ability required
Open election and
Vicarious atonement together with
Enriching grace so that God's grace finally
Saves the faithful from their sins and the consequences of all sins.

Quick recap? I couldn't find your LOVES post I saw from earlier

It's above

Hope you enjoy it.

 

[Andrew]

It's above

Hope you enjoy it.

I did enjoy it, does that make me a Coffeeinist?

 

[MoreCoffee]

I did enjoy it, does that make me a Coffeeinist?

It makes you more Catholic than before

 

[MennoSota]

Well gee Menno obviously without God there would be nothing to believe in so of course belief is only possible with God.
Honestly your teaching could make many doubt their faith, you are basically cornering believers into doubting if they are even the elect or not... Why is it important for you to emphasise on the Elect (Gods business btw) why not focus on promoting the good news of Salvation for all who believe and just leave it at that?

It's what God says in the Bible. Why would those whom the Father has given to Jesus doubt their faith that has been given to them by God?
Only those who are trying to create their own faith, apart from God would doubt because... it's their faith...not God's.
God emphasizes the elect. There are at least 20 passages where God tells us we are chosen, elect or predestined. These are all passages of comfort to the believer. Why would we not focus on this truth? Why would we imagine that we were alone and the responsibility were all on us? It would be as if we ignored Jesus and chose to take our own your and carry it ourselves? How odd that would be.

 

[Andrew]

It's what God says in the Bible. Why would those whom the Father has given to Jesus doubt their faith that has been given to them by God?
Only those who are trying to create their own faith, apart from God would doubt because... it's their faith...not God's.
God emphasizes the elect. There are at least 20 passages where God tells us we are chosen, elect or predestined. These are all passages of comfort to the believer. Why would we not focus on this truth? Why would we imagine that we were alone and the responsibility were all on us? It would be as if we ignored Jesus and chose to take our own your and carry it ourselves? How odd that would be.

It is comforting to know that I am in the Elect, I am comforted by Gods presence when I am at my weakest moment, that he was always there and winked at the things I did before I knew him... all of this is Gods blessings on his chosen. I did cry out to God and he answered, my misery led me to seek him it was just a matter of time. Indeed God is irresistible and it was he who knocked and I let him in, all of this I believe.
So I can say that God wants me as his child, to save a wretch like me, but he is still searching and seeking out who knows but God how many yet to come! All whom are sinners! So we have no answer as to how many are his elect, the work is finished, GRACE is not limited to TULIP theology, Gods grace and atonement is limitless up until the day of judgment, the Church will be raptured, Tribulation Saints will be saved, and the 14,000 Jews will be saved and until the day of Judgment we can hardly define the Elect for ourselves as it is by Gods searching and seeking and knocking on doors that is at work calling out for his elect.
For the sake of argument I will confess my Lord and Savior is Jesus Christ and that My God made me a believer.

 

[MennoSota]

It is comforting to know that I am in the Elect, I am comforted by Gods presence when I am at my weakest moment, that he was always there and winked at the things I did before I knew him... all of this is Gods blessings on his chosen. I did cry out to God and he answered, my misery led me to seek him it was just a matter of time. Indeed God is irresistible and it was he who knocked and I let him in, all of this I believe.
So I can say that God wants me as his child, to save a wretch like me, but he is still searching and seeking out who knows but God how many yet to come! All whom are sinners! So we have no answer as to how many are his elect, the work is finished, GRACE is not limited to TULIP theology, Gods grace and atonement is limitless up until the day of judgment, the Church will be raptured, Tribulation Saints will be saved, and the 14,000 Jews will be saved and until the day of Judgment we can hardly define the Elect for ourselves as it is by Gods searching and seeking and knocking on doors that is at work calling out for his elect.
For the sake of argument I will confess my Lord and Savior is Jesus Christ and that My God made me a believer.

We indeed have no idea whom God has written down in the book of Life. God has not given us access. We share a general call of reconciliation to the entire world. We are confident that God will give life to those whom He wills life. These will respond as the call goes out. The rest will remain in rebellion.
We do not worry about our presentation of the gospel, whether or methods were effective or not. We share the gospel and trust God to bring all the elect to salvation. God will make it so. We have faith in God's redeeming work. This is all we need to do. Just keep believing and keep obeying.

 

[Josiah]

We indeed have no idea whom God has written down in the book of Life.

... just one of the terrorizing ramifications of hyper-Calvinism. Correct, it means NO ONE has a clue if they are saved and heaven-bound, if their faith has any significance whatsoever, if God even loves them. There is more than fear, there is terror.

In orthodox Christianity, the presence of faith in Christ as Savior means there is justification. And this is because that faith DOES embrace a reality, something that IS for us, not a phantom, not a cruel joke, not a void. Because God loves the world (as the Bible says)... because Christ died for all (as the Bible so often verbatim says)... there IS something REAL that faith CAN embrace, apprehend, trust, rely upon. We don't have to guess if it's for ME (because in hyper-Calvinism, it's probably not - and you can't know if it is because God never published the short list of for whom it actually is real, the rest are just fooling themselves). We see this same terror in the radical invention of OSAS which also means the Calvinist never knows (never even has a clue) if they have faith that means anything. In orthodox Chrsitianity, if one is replying on Christ, they ARE justified. There is no limitation: "IF Christ died for YOU, which He probably didn't, odds are you're not on the short list." In orthodox Christianity, it's the OBJECT of faith that matters, not some entirely unknown short list. In orthodox Christianity, we don't have to wonder if faith in Christ is irrelevant.... We don't get into all the "but only if your faith is GENUINE - and there's no way to know." In hyper-Calvinism, the UNKNOWABLE issue of whether Christ died for YOU (and He probably did not) is the issue.... in orthodox Christianity, the object of faith is the issue (and we know if we are trusting in Christ or not).





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[MennoSota]

... just one of the terrorizing ramifications of hyper-Calvinism. Correct, it means NO ONE has a clue if they are saved and heaven-bound, if their faith has any significance whatsoever, if God even loves them. There is more than fear, there is terror.

In orthodox Christianity, the presence of faith in Christ as Savior means there is justification. And this is because that faith DOES embrace a reality, something that IS for us, not a phantom, not a cruel joke, not a void. Because God loves the world (as the Bible says)... because Christ died for all (as the Bible so often verbatim says)... there IS something REAL that faith CAN embrace, apprehend, trust, rely upon. We don't have to guess if it's for ME (because in hyper-Calvinism, it's probably not - and you can't know if it is because God never published the short list of for whom it actually is real, the rest are just fooling themselves). We see this same terror in the radical invention of OSAS which also means the Calvinist never knows (never even has a clue) if they have faith that means anything. In orthodox Chrsitianity, if one is replying on Christ, they ARE justified. There is no limitation: "IF Christ died for YOU, which He probably didn't, odds are you're not on the short list." In orthodox Christianity, it's the OBJECT of faith that matters, not some entirely unknown short list. In orthodox Christianity, we don't have to wonder if faith in Christ is irrelevant.... We don't get into all the "but only if your faith is GENUINE - and there's no way to know."





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God has not given us access. We share a general call of reconciliation to the entire world. We are confident that God will give life to those whom He wills life. These will respond as the call goes out. The rest will remain in rebellion.
We do not worry about our presentation of the gospel, whether or methods were effective or not. We share the gospel and trust God to bring all the elect to salvation. God will make it so. We have faith in God's redeeming work. This is all we need to do. Just keep believing and keep obeying.

Nothing to be terrorized or terrified about, Josiah.
I see no reason for fear when God is fully Sovereign over all His creation. Why does God's Sovereignty terrorize and terrify you, Josiah?
Also, I notice you rely upon works to make your judgment as to who is saved (justified) and who is not. Do you imagine you are smart enough to judge?

 

[Josiah]

.I see no reason for fear when God is fully Sovereign over all His creation. Why does God's Sovereignty terrorize and terrify you, Josiah?

I'm not a hyper-Calvinist. I don't hold that God desires to see most eternally fry in hell.... I don't hold that God calls all to believe but for most it's a cruel trick because faith for most is embracing something that's not for them.... I don't hold that what matters is whether Christ died for ME (which He probably didn't) but whether the faith I have is in Christ.

Because God loves ALL (as the Bible repeatedly says).... because Christ died for ALL (as the Bible repeatedly says).... therefore, that includes me. Faith in that universal reality is thus effectual because there's no if, ands and buts if Christ died for ME.




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[Josiah]

Hyper-Calvinism is full of rationalized TERROR....

It's obvious in its insistence that Christ died for ONLY a few (and thus probably not you) - and you can never know if YOU are included in this short list, this minority; whether your faith means a thing. Faith in CHRIST (the Object) is replaced with whether that faith is ACTUALLY embracing something that is for YOU (and there's no way to know).

But it's seen also in "Once Saved, ALWAYS Saved." It's also based on this foundational idea that faith typically is meaningless.

That's the HORROR of OSAS.... as well as most of TULIP


The Gospel is: Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. Yes, faith is a part of this whole, but it is the OBJECT of that faith that matters, not the quanity or quality of it. There is only ONE appropriate question: "In WHOM do I rely?" "To WHOM is my faith directed?" CHRIST is the Savior (not my faith), so the issue is the sufficiency of CHRIST, not faith.


An illustration:

Let's say Bob grows up in a Dutch Reformed Church, the child of a Deacon and the church organist and Sunday School Superintendent. He professes Christ - and this certainly seems sincere. "I believe it all!" Bob goes to Dartmouth College and rooms with an agnostic, who converts him. Bob now holds that Christianity, while it CAN have a good role, is simply false; Christ, if he ever lived at all, was in no sense whatever God or Savior. "I reject all that"

Let's evaluate from an OSAS position: There are three possibilities:

1. Bob NEVER believed. He totally, sincerely, absolutely thought he did, he said he did, everyone else totally believed he did. But he lied and they misunderstood. IF he REALLY believed, with TRUE faith, SUFFICIENT in quality and quantity, then he COULD NOT have "fallen away." Bob is going to hell - what he thought and said for 18 years was a lie.

2. Bob still believes. He totally, absolutely, completely rejects everything Christian but he still believes it all. Bob is lying to himself and everyone else and it is stupid for others to take what he professes and renounces with ANY seriousness: people lie, people misunderstand themselves. Bob is going to heaven.

3. Bob does NOT believe now but he is going to heaven anyway because for 18 years, he DID believe. The proper formula is: "Salvation is by faith in Christ AT ANY POINT IN ONE"S LIFE" so that a Buddhist monk, a passionate atheist is still going to heaven if - for a microsecond - the HAD faith. Of course, there's no way to know if one ever did. And Scripture is wrong to say we must CONTINUE in faith since continuing or enduring has nothing to do with anything.

So, can Bob or anyone have any veiw as to whether Bob is (or ever was) a Christian? Nope.


Now, Bob graduates with a Ph.D. in philosophy and has written books on the glories and correctness of being an agnostic. But Calvinists don't know if he's a Christian or not, saved or not, going to heaven or not; if he EVER had TRUE faith or even if he does now. In time, Bob marries Sally, a good Reformed Baptist. Bob begins going to church with Sally and eventually with the kids. While it takes 10 years, Bob states that he now believes it all. He is now a Christian. Bob and Sally become leaders of the High School Youth Group and lead a Bible study group for seekers. Bob writes a book on Christian Apologetics.

Let's evaluate from the OSAS position: There are 3 possibilities -

1. Bob ALWAYS believed. It's just for 20 years, he lied (albeit entirely sincerely; he genuinely and completely THOUGH he rejected Christianity and was an agnostic). Because he believe as a kid, he HAD to believe during those 20 years and HAS to believe now. Bob is a Christian, saved, going to heaven, HE ALWAYS WAS because once you believe - you cannot do otherwise. His return to the faith only confirms this. When people SAY they reject Christ, they lie. Don't consider what people sincerely and genuinely say they believe.

2. Bob does NOT believe! If his faith had been true and real, he never would have fallen, he never would have FOR TWENTY YEARS condemned Christianity, one with TRUE faith - sufficient in quality and quantity - could not and would not do it. His "return" is disgusting and hypocritical. You just can't believe what people SAY they believe - however genuine or sincere - because people unknowingly, unintentionally LIE all the time. Bob is a pagan and is hell bound. His pastor should remove him from his positions and excommunicate him.

3. Bob was saved when he was a kid and professed faith, Bob was saved for those 20 years when he boldly denied Christ and all of Christianity without faith, Bob is saved now because he has faith. Faith has nothing to do with anything. It's Sola Gratia - Solus Christus. There is no faith that matters, which is why it doesn't matter if Bob had or has faith.


Sally is killed in a horrible accident as she serves as a volunteer crossing guard at the kid's Baptist school. Bob concludes that all this God stuff is a hoax and condemns God. He returns to his agnosticism - only now as atheism. He writes a best selling book about how Christianity is the most cruel hoax there is. Bob dies in this position.

Let's evaluate from the OSAS position:

1. Bob always believed. He is again lying to himself and everyone else - as people OFTEN do. Bob sincerely, genuinely, passionately THINKS he rejects Christ but this is not a possibility. Bob believed as a kid - with REAL and TRUE and SUFFICIENT faith, ergo he is a Christian and saved. You can't believe what people say and do and proclaim because they lie all the time, they simply have NO WAY TO KNOW if they are trusting in Christ or not. Bob does and died a Christian. His funeral was at a Dutch Reformed Church, arranged by his brother. The pastor proclaimed that this atheist, famous for his anti-Christian books, is now in heaven and is a Christian which is why he is conducting this Christian funeral for him.

2. Bob NEVER believed. He NEVER had TRUE or REAL or GENUINE or SUFFICIENT faith. He never did. He lied. For over 30 years, he LIED. He never believed. He THOUGHT he did - sincerely, genuinely, passionately - and everyone else thought that, too! But it was all a lie. People LIE all the time about this stuff - although nearly always unintentionally because they GENUINELY and sincerely and passionately THINK they are trusting in Christ. But they aren't. You just can't believe what people profess. The Dutch Reformed pastor refuses to do the funeral, proclaiming that Bob is in hell - and God is glorified by the burning flames in which Bob is suffering; God gets off on this.

3. Bob is in heaven in spite of not having faith, because faith doesn't matter. All that matters is that God is getting His way. Whether Bob had faith - ever - is irrelevant. All that matters is what God gets off on: seeing Bob in heaven or watching Bob burn. It's Sola Soverignty, not Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - SOLA FIDE.



Bottom line: In TULIP and hyper-Calvinism, there is NO WAY for Bob or anyone to know (or even guess) if Bob is or ever was a Christian, saved or heaven-bound. Not when he was a kid, not when he was writting all those anti-Christian books, not now. No one CAN know (or even guess). Because the issue is not the OBJECT of faith but whether that faith is "GENUINE" and whether Christ died for THEM (which they cannot know; He probably didn't).


Thus is the horror, the terror of HYPER-Calvinism. Where the emphasis is taken OFF God's grace and OFF the Cross and placed on whether the faith of self is actually embracing something for them (which it probably isn't).




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[MennoSota]

I'm not a hyper-Calvinist. I don't hold that God desires to see most eternally fry in hell.... I don't hold that God calls all to believe but for most it's a cruel trick because faith for most is embracing something that's not for them.... I don't hold that what matters is whether Christ died for ME (which He probably didn't) but whether the faith I have is in Christ.

Because God loves ALL (as the Bible repeatedly says).... because Christ died for ALL (as the Bible repeatedly says).... therefore, that includes me. Faith in that universal reality is thus effectual because there's no if, ands and buts if Christ died for ME.




.

Who says that God desires people to fry in hell? Not me, nor any Reformed person I know.
What I say is that God is not obligated to save rebels from themselves and their sinful nature.
Do you believe God is obligated to save all rebels, Josiah? Is God evil if He doesn't shed his blood for all so that they are made holy by His atoning sacrifice?
Where we differ is that I believe Jesus atonement makes all, for whom He has died, holy. The atonement is effective and its effect is that God gives the gift of faith.
You teach that Jesus atonement makes all humanity holy, but only the humans who manifest faith actually have the atonement be effective.
You still limit Jesus atonement, but you also make Jesus weak because only the few who get faith are actually saved. All the others are made holy, but they go to hell anyway.

 

[Josiah]

Where we differ is that I believe Jesus atonement makes all, for whom He has died, holy. The atonement is effective and its effect is that God gives the gift of faith.

I believe what the Bible so often, so boldly, so directly says: Christ died for all. The benefits of that comes to the individual when God gives that one faith.

You teach that Jesus atonement makes all humanity holy

See, there's one of your problems. Clearly, you don't read what anyone else posts. I NEVER, REMOTELY posted, implied or believe any such nonsense. The only ones who do are universalists, who historically have been hyper-Calvinists who have your theology and it lead them to the absurdity you state.

What I said is exactly, verbatim what the Bible (and 2000 years of Christianity) clearly, boldly, undeniably says: Christ died for all. We apprehend that via the divine gift of faith, which means we are declared (not made) holy.

only the humans who manifest faith actually have the atonement be effective.

How often have I asked you to please quote me where I said anything needs to be manifest for anything; you keep insisting I hold something must be "manifest." I've asked you to quote where I've EVER even used that word - for anything, in any context - but you keep refusing.

No, I hold that faith trusts/relies/apprehends/embraces the work of Christ. Such faith is a divine gift. Where it is present, the benefits of Christ's works are ours. I don't get into your "pit" of the QUALITY and GENUINESS of faith being the issue ("manifest"), I've noted it's the OBJECT of the faith that is the issue.

You limit Jesus

LOL.

YOURS is the dogma of "LIMITED Atonement." That's the L of TULIP . The "L" stand for LIMIT. This "limit" is what you claim to defend; it's insists on this LIMITED idea. "Jesus died for ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST a LIMITED few." His death is LIMITED.

You have our views completely reversed.


And we again see your "shell game." We're not talking about whether everyone is justified (neither of us are universalists), the dogma according to you (and you are correct in its definition) is "Jesus died for ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST a LIMITED few."

The dogma is not, "Limited Justification" or "Limited Results" it's "Jesus died for ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST a LIMITED few."

Quite trying to change the subject. OF COURSE, not all have faith. OF COURSE, not all are heaven-bound. No one here is discussing that. No one here challenges that. The subject is this: This new radical invention of a tiny few latter-day hyper-Calvinists that "Jesus died for ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST a FEW (it's LIMITED)" Not that faith is limited or that justification is limited... but rather, exclusively, that His DEATH is limited. And of course, it's obvious to everyone you have nothing in Scripture that teaches what you do.

All the others are made holy, but they go to hell anyway.

See, you don't read anything that is not parroting what you claim....

I've NEVER, EVER, REMOTELY stated that anyone is justified apart from faith. I never remotely said that those with the divine gift of faith in Christ go to hell anyway if they are among the majority for whom Christ did not die." Nope, you need to read YOUR posts there. I hold to the Protestant theology of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide.



- Josiah





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[MennoSota]

I believe what the Bible so often, so boldly, so directly says: Christ died for all. The benefits of that comes to the individual when God gives that one faith.







See, there's one of your problems. Clearly, you don't read what anyone else posts. I NEVER, REMOTELY posted, implied or believe any such nonsense. The only ones who do are universalists, who historically have been hyper-Calvinists who have your theology and it lead them to the absurdity you state.

What I said is exactly, verbatim what the Bible (and 2000 years of Christianity) clearly, boldly, undeniably says: Christ died for all. We apprehend that via the divine gift of faith, which means we are declared (not made) holy.







How often have I asked you to please quote me where I said anything needs to be manifest for anything; you keep insisting I hold something must be "manifest." I've asked you to quote where I've EVER even used that word - for anything, in any context - but you keep refusing.

No, I hold that faith trusts/relies/apprehends/embraces the work of Christ. Such faith is a divine gift. Where it is present, the benefits of Christ's works are ours. I don't get into your "pit" of the QUALITY and GENUINESS of faith being the issue ("manifest"), I've noted it's the OBJECT of the faith that is the issue.







LOL.

YOURS is the dogma of "LIMITED Atonement." That's the L of TULIP . The "L" stand for LIMIT. This "limit" is what you claim to defend; it's insists on this LIMITED idea. "Jesus died for ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST a LIMITED few." His death is LIMITED.

You have our views completely reversed.


And we again see your "shell game." We're not talking about whether everyone is justified (neither of us are universalists), the dogma according to you (and you are correct in its definition) is "Jesus died for ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST a LIMITED few."

The dogma is not, "Limited Justification" or "Limited Results" it's "Jesus died for ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST a LIMITED few."

Quite trying to change the subject. OF COURSE, not all have faith. OF COURSE, not all are heaven-bound. No one here is discussing that. No one here challenges that. The subject is this: This new radical invention of a tiny few latter-day hyper-Calvinists that "Jesus died for ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST a FEW (it's LIMITED)" Not that faith is limited or that justification is limited... but rather, exclusively, that His DEATH is limited. And of course, it's obvious to everyone you have nothing in Scripture that teaches what you do.







See, you don't read anything that is not parroting what you claim....

I've NEVER, EVER, REMOTELY stated that anyone is justified apart from faith. I never remotely said that those with the divine gift of faith in Christ go to hell anyway if they are among the majority for whom Christ did not die." Nope, you need to read YOUR posts there. I hold to the Protestant theology of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide.



- Josiah





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Josiah, your comments show you actually believe in love (particular) atonement. Yet, you cannot bear to accept what you actually believe.
Until then, you are talking contradiction within your self.

 

[Josiah]

Josiah, your comments show you actually believe in love (particular) atonement.

No.

You are the one insisting that it's LIMITED (it's the name of the dogma you have) and that Jesus died ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for a LIMITED few." You just have presented nothing in Scripture or outside hyper-Calvinism to support it. What I've presented is what the Bible says, the exact opposite of this radical invention of a few latter-day hyper-Calvinists.

you are talking contradiction

You already admitted that it's YOUR contradiction, that if Jesus died for all then that creates a contradiction to some other unique, new, hyper-Calvinist inventions. Not my problem, not my contradiction.

There's no contradiction in the Bible here: Jesus died for all, those with the divine gift of faith apprehend/trust/rely/embrace that and thus benefit from it. It simply puts faith back into things and returns to the biblical teaching. But of course, means the dogma you've been promoting is very wrong. If you now realize that, well....good.... you've joined with every Calvinists personally known to me. Maybe that "contradiction" with other aspects of TULIP will cause you to examine them, as well.



A blessed Epiphany season to all...


- Josiah





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[Andrew]

I believe what the Bible so often, so boldly, so directly says: Christ died for all. The benefits of that comes to the individual when God gives that one faith.

This

 

[Andrew]

What I don't like about Calvinism is that it makes it pointless to convert anyone to Christianity, you can't get around it no matter how you slice it. Since God has a specific limited number of chosen people one would be getting in the way to draw people into the light, unlike every other denomination that adhere to spreading the good news, Calvinism builds up only themselves or else its just superstitious works.
I do not like the idea of burying ones face in the book while sitting on there hands so convinced that they and only they have it right, albeit they may not even be the Elect themselves but at least they know more than the rest of the church...
According to this theology, every single soul in the OT prior to the sacrifice stays in hades, this includes all of the prophets except maybe Enoch... if Christ only 'died' for the sins of an exclusive few.
I always like to extend of course that God IS actively searching the hearts of men! Why search if they were marked saved at birth?
Menno did point out John chapter 17 where Christ says he does not pray for the world but for for his people and not just the elect of the day but for his people to come that they not be tempted, that does not imply that the unsaved cannot be saved, but if they are well then they are just part of a very few elect?
It really makes my head hurt, God is not the author of confusion.
Is the Elect the Body/Church? Yes!
Is it limited? No, it is LIMITLESS until the great and terrible day of judgment! A day we are NOT encouraged to look forward to! May God have Mercy on us all.

 

[Lamb]

What I don't like about Calvinism is that it makes it pointless to convert anyone to Christianity,...

Very true! Calvinists cannot go out and tell the truth about the Gospel that their sin is forgiven...because they believe that only certain people had their sins forgiven at the cross and they have no idea who those people are. So they can't reveal that Jesus died for them since they don't know because if they aren't the elect then they're bearing false witness...and God would NEVER ever have His disciples go out to bear false witness.