To those whom the Lord has called

[MennoSota]

Are these quotes not of books? I am confused by your statement.

It is not speculation that he killed someone.

I can produce the texts if you like, but be forwarded; it is spoken of within the quran which very many Christian's deem Antichrist or satanic out of fear and/ or ignorance.

I will not post it unless you request for it.

peace

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Muhammad quoted the gnostic stories of Jesus that had been made up centuries later.
I suggest you read Nabeel Qureshi's book "Seeking Allah, Finding Jesus" to get an understanding of Muhammad and the Quran.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Muhammad quoted the gnostic stories of Jesus that had been made up centuries later.
I suggest you read Nabeel Qureshi's book "Seeking Allah, Finding Jesus" to get an understanding of Muhammad and the Quran.

I suggest you don't assume things based on the words of biased third parties and read for yourself without preconceived bias prior to speaking ill of a thing you are ignorant of.

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[MennoSota]

I suggest you don't assume things based on the words of biased third parties and read for yourself without preconceived bias prior to speaking ill of a thing you are ignorant of.

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I have. Nabeel is not wrong.

 

[popsthebuilder]

I have. Nabeel is not wrong.

Nabeel?

Is that the writer of the Quran?

No!?

Then it is third party and likely quite biased.

We should drop it as I do not wish to detail this thread or fight about things that neither of our opinion will be changed on.

Let us focus on a similarites through Christ as opposed to making claims about things that do not work to edify one another.

Is that fine by you sir?



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[popsthebuilder]

[MENTION=201]pinacled[/MENTION] ;

I am not trying to derail your thread.

I am sorry for causing it to veer off topic if it has.

I look forward to your input on my posts and also to your next post in this thread in general.

peace pin, with sincerity

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[MennoSota]

Nabeel?

Is that the writer of the Quran?

No!?

Then it is third party and likely quite biased.

We should drop it as I do not wish to detail this thread or fight about things that neither of our opinion will be changed on.

Let us focus on a similarites through Christ as opposed to making claims about things that do not work to edify one another.

Is that fine by you sir?



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I have read the Quran. I have read the quotes in the Quran. Most of them come from gnostic gospels far removed from the Judeo/Christian Bible.
Second, a caliph, many years after Muhammad, brought all the people who had memorized the Quran as well as any extant versions of the Quran together. He then selected one version and had all other versions destroyed. We have no ability today to cross-reference the versions. The Quran we have today is compiled over 300 years after Muhammad lived.
Third, while a person named Muhammad likely lived, we have no data to prove he did what is claimed of him. There are no eyewitness accounts that are reliable.
Do you really expect the Quran to stand up as a reliable and historical document? If so, you are utterly fooling yourself.
As to similarities about Christ, there are few because Muhammad was using mythical gnostic stories as his source documents about Christ. It's the equivalent of a fiction writer making up an extra story about Jesus to tell around the campfire.

 

[popsthebuilder]

I have read the Quran. I have read the quotes in the Quran. Most of them come from gnostic gospels far removed from the Judeo/Christian Bible.
Second, a caliph, many years after Muhammad, brought all the people who had memorized the Quran as well as any extant versions of the Quran together. He then selected one version and had all other versions destroyed. We have no ability today to cross-reference the versions. The Quran we have today is compiled over 300 years after Muhammad lived.
Third, while a person named Muhammad likely lived, we have no data to prove he did what is claimed of him. There are no eyewitness accounts that are reliable.
Do you really expect the Quran to stand up as a reliable and historical document? If so, you are utterly fooling yourself.
As to similarities about Christ, there are few because Muhammad was using mythical gnostic stories as his source documents about Christ. It's the equivalent of a fiction writer making up an extra story about Jesus to tell around the campfire.

You can in no way whatsoever prove that the Quran is fraudulent in any way.

You can claim what you want about the sacred book if you like, but they are but idle works without any verification.

Start a thread and get my attention. We can continue this there; GOD willing.

Know that I will expect your arguments to be backed with either in context bible or quran directly; and that I will provide the same for my side of the argument. Let us enter this with hopes of edification and peacable conversation for the sake of eventual harmony or unity with one another in our understandings, and the Spirit of GOD as HIS will pertains to ourselves.

peace

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[MennoSota]

You can in no way whatsoever prove that the Quran is fraudulent in any way.

You can claim what you want about the sacred book if you like, but they are but idle works without any verification.

Start a thread and get my attention. We can continue this there; GOD willing.

Know that I will expect your arguments to be backed with either in context bible or quran directly; and that I will provide the same for my side of the argument. Let us enter this with hopes of edification and peacable conversation for the sake of eventual harmony or unity with one another in our understandings, and the Spirit of GOD as HIS will pertains to ourselves.

peace

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You can prove factual data. This means that we can prove that all versions of the Quran were destroyed except for the one approved by a caliphate coming over 300 years after Muhammad allegedly lived.
We can factually say that no documents exist to prove there was a Muhammad and that he did what is claimed. There is better evidence for the existence of Jesus.
We can factually say that Muhammad (if he existed) received second hand information about Jesus that comes from gnostic gospels written centuries after Jesus and the Apostles lived.
The evidence stacks up to show the Quran to be a substandard text based upon false information provided to Muhammad.
This is fact. This is why Muslims who honestly research the historicity of the Quran are left to leave the faith and choose another worldview or hold to a known false document in order to appease the cultural expectations.

 

[popsthebuilder]

You can prove factual data. This means that we can prove that all versions of the Quran were destroyed except for the one approved by a caliphate coming over 300 years after Muhammad allegedly lived.
We can factually say that no documents exist to prove there was a Muhammad and that he did what is claimed. There is better evidence for the existence of Jesus.
We can factually say that Muhammad (if he existed) received second hand information about Jesus that comes from gnostic gospels written centuries after Jesus and the Apostles lived.
The evidence stacks up to show the Quran to be a substandard text based upon false information provided to Muhammad.
This is fact. This is why Muslims who honestly research the historicity of the Quran are left to leave the faith and choose another worldview or hold to a known false document in order to appease the cultural expectations.

You are basing all your claims on third party input.

Compare the actual books silly.

And please do stop detailing this thread just because I mentioned Musa.

Thank you.

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[MennoSota]

You are basing all your claims on third party input.

Compare the actual books silly.

And please do stop detailing this thread just because I mentioned Musa.

Thank you.

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No I am not. I'm basing my claims upon factual data available through objective research. Do the research. I am not providing false data.
Second, a comparison between the Judeo/Christian Bible and the Quran shows that Muhammad did not share the same stories about Jesus. He lifted and shared the gnostic stories he heard which come from secondary myths told in gnostic writings.
Any honest historian will go to the earliest and most reliable documents to find the most accurate story. The stories in the Quran are not even close to being reliable.
Now, quit hiding behind excuses.

 

[popsthebuilder]

No I am not. I'm basing my claims upon factual data available through objective research. Do the research. I am not providing false data.
Second, a comparison between the Judeo/Christian Bible and the Quran shows that Muhammad did not share the same stories about Jesus. He lifted and shared the gnostic stories he heard which come from secondary myths told in gnostic writings.
Any honest historian will go to the earliest and most reliable documents to find the most accurate story. The stories in the Quran are not even close to being reliable.
Now, quit hiding behind excuses.

That simply is not true; which is why I have offered to set and compair the books side by side for you/ with you.

You repeatedly decline all while claiming third party interpretation to be the truth of the matter and disturbing this man's thread for your own agenda based on said third party interpretation.

The translations your claims are based on were most likely done by one of a "gnostic" persuasion; but I assure you, and am willing to outright show you, that the version I am speaking of from personal experience and understanding indeed reiterates the bible in the vast majority of ways. History is manipulated, as everyone has some form and level of bias.

Please; if you wish to prove your point or change my heart on the matter then do make a thread that we may compair whatever discrepancies you believe there to be, versus what I believe to be complimentary of one another.

You will persuade me no other way, and everyone else here is most likely in your camp to some extent on this particular topic. So why go on about it?

Please do not claim that I am being deceitful or hiding. Such is only assumption, and not befitting of either of us.

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[MennoSota]

That simply is not true; which is why I have offered to set and compair the books side by side for you/ with you.

You repeatedly decline all while claiming third party interpretation to be the truth of the matter and disturbing this man's thread for your own agenda based on said third party interpretation.

The translations your claims are based on were most likely done by one of a "gnostic" persuasion; but I assure you, and am willing to outright show you, that the version I am speaking of from personal experience and understanding indeed reiterates the bible in the vast majority of ways. History is manipulated, as everyone has some form and level of bias.

Please; if you wish to prove your point or change my heart on the matter then do make a thread that we may compair whatever discrepancies you believe there to be, versus what I believe to be complimentary of one another.

You will persuade me no other way, and everyone else here is most likely in your camp to some extent on this particular topic. So why go on about it?

Please do not claim that I am being deceitful or hiding. Such is only assumption, and not befitting of either of us.

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You are closing your mind off to facts. I cannot convince anyone who ignores factual data.

 

[popsthebuilder]

You are closing your mind off to facts. I cannot convince anyone who ignores factual data.

I figured you wouldn't judge it against scripture directly.

You propagating the wisdom of man as truth, in actuality; couldn't be further from the truth.

It is a shame that you aren't willing to use scripture as a litmus test; and prefer to base your whole argument on the discernment of others, or rather the lack there of.

Oh well.

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[popsthebuilder]

You are closing your mind off to facts. I cannot convince anyone who ignores factual data.

Can you show with scripture that we are to consider the interpretation and tradition of man as infallible? Did Jesus say that those who aren't against us are on our part? Or that if it isn't in your version of the Bible that it isn't true and obviously of the opposer?

Never mind I'm wasting my time again it seems.

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[MennoSota]

I figured you wouldn't judge it against scripture directly.

You propagating the wisdom of man as truth, in actuality; couldn't be further from the truth.

It is a shame that you aren't willing to use scripture as a litmus test; and prefer to base your whole argument on the discernment of others, or rather the lack there of.

Oh well.

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Quote the exact passage from the Quran and we can then see what the Judeo/Christian Bible says. If the Quran quotes the Bible exactly then great, but I have not read an exact quote from the Bible in the Quran. What I have read is Muhammad presenting the gnostic stories he heard from caravaners as they passed by.

 

[MennoSota]

Can you show with scripture that we are to consider the interpretation and tradition of man as infallible? Did Jesus say that those who aren't against us are on our part? Or that if it isn't in your version of the Bible that it isn't true and obviously of the opposer?

Never mind I'm wasting my time again it seems.

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What specific verse are you referring to? Start a thread and explain how the Quran quotes the Bible.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Quote the exact passage from the Quran and we can then see what the Judeo/Christian Bible says. If the Quran quotes the Bible exactly then great, but I have not read an exact quote from the Bible in the Quran. What I have read is Muhammad presenting the gnostic stories he heard from caravaners as they passed by.

Start a thread please.

And I am not saying, and have not said that it is a verbatum copy; but that it reiterates the Truth found in the Bible.

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[popsthebuilder]

What specific verse are you referring to? Start a thread and explain how the Quran quotes the Bible.

No flippy floppy sir.

Your claim you start it off, or leave it be.

Not this thread please.

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[MennoSota]

Start a thread please.

And I am not saying, and have not said that it is a verbatum copy; but that it reiterates the Truth found in the Bible.

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I have no need to start the thread. You have brought Muhammad into this mix. If you think the Quran has a leg to stand on, please share your view. Otherwise, the facts I have already shared are sufficient to make my point here.

 

[atpollard]

Thread started for you:


Does the Qu'ran tell the same truth found in the Christian Bible?