Mathew 3:11

[MennoSota]

Because John Gill does not do a good job as often as Albert Barnes does and John MacArthur represents a fringe element in USA evangelicalism, and R C Sproul is not interesting to me for all sorts of reasons. Pope Francis may have commented on Matthew 3:11 but I have not see his comments (if they exist) so I do not have them to cut and paste for you so that you can rail against them.

What do you believe, MC? Your voice is distinctly missing.

 

[MoreCoffee]

These are all nice thoughts, but Matthew 3 doesn't teach it. The context is right in front of you. No need to make up anything that isn't there. Let Acts 2 speak for itself.

Acts Chapter two does not tell you what baptism with fire means. Do you have an explanation for what it means?

 

[MoreCoffee]

What do you believe, MC? Your voice is distinctly missing.

Albert Barnes' views on Matthew 3:11 are interesting.

 

[MennoSota]

Acts Chapter two does not tell you what baptism with fire means. Do you have an explanation for what it means?

Acts chapter two has nothing to do with Matthew 3. It's irrelevant in this thread.
Here in Matthew 3 we find an immersion in the Spirit and an immersion in fire. They are contrasted, not parallel. The fire is explained in verse 12 as the flames of hell.
This is the 2nd time I have presented this while you provide nothing. It may be that you struggle to think independently of others. I find your inability to provide comment quite fascinating, MC.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Acts chapter two has nothing to do with Matthew 3. It's irrelevant in this thread.
Here in Matthew 3 we find an immersion in the Spirit and an immersion in fire.

No water?

:smirk:

They are contrasted, not parallel.

The Holy Ghost is contrasted with fire?

The fire is explained in verse 12 as the flames of hell.

I'll post the passage so we can all see the context just in case somebody does not have a bible handy.

Matthew 3:1-12 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, 2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. 3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. 4 And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey. 5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, 6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins. 7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: 9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: 12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.​

This is the 2nd time I have presented this while you provide nothing. It may be that you struggle to think independently of others. I find your inability to provide comment quite fascinating, MC.

I am so pleased to fascinate you.

:smirk:

 

[MennoSota]

No water?

:smirk:



The Holy Ghost is contrasted with fire?



I'll post the passage so we can all see the context just in case somebody does not have a bible handy.

Matthew 3:1-12 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, 2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. 3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. 4 And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey. 5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, 6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins. 7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: 9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: 12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.​

I am so pleased to fascinate you.

:smirk:

I already posted the passage. You failed to read it and just went to the Barnes cut and paste.
Your evasive spirit is wearisome, MC. You bring nothing of value to this conversation.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I already posted the passage.

You skipped verses 1 to 6.

You failed to read it and just went to the Barnes cut and paste.

Obviously I did read it because I noticed that you skipped verses 1 to 6. I like Albert Barnes' comment on Matthew 3:11, if you want I can give an opinion on 3:12 too.

Your evasive spirit is wearisome, MC. You bring nothing of value to this conversation.

I think Albert Barnes' comments are valuable so I brought them along. You didn't bring his views along so somebody had to.

Edit: A nineteenth century Catholic Chap surnamed Haydock has this to say on the verse.

Matthew 3:11 KJV I indeed baptise you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptise you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Haydock C
Matthew 3:11

My baptism is only calculated to lead you to a penitential life, and not to give you true justice; but he who comes after me, is stronger than I, and whose shoes I am not worthy to carry: (it was customary with the attendant slave to carry a change of shoes for his master) he will baptize you in the Holy Ghost, and in the fire of his divine charity, which he will infuse into your hearts, to purify you from all your sins. (Bible de Vence)
--- Here St. John tacitly insinuates the divinity of Jesus Christ. He acknowledges his unworthiness, and it is this his humility that makes him the more acceptable to God, "I ought to be baptized by thee, and comest thou to me?" (Tirinus)
--- Whose shoes I am not worthy to carry. In St. Mark, (chap. i. 7.) and in St. Luke, (iii. 21.) we read, the latchet of whose shoes . . . I am not worthy to untie. The sense is the same, and St. John might use both these expression. His meaning is, that he was not worthy to do him the least, or the lowest service.
--- He shall baptize you in, or with the Holy Ghost, i.e. by his baptism, he will give you the remission of your sins, and the graces of the Holy Ghost, signified also by fire, which may allude to the coming of the Holy Ghost at Pentecost, in the shape of fiery tongues. (Witham)​

Post Script: I think John was talking about the contrast between his baptism and baptism into Christ. With John's baptism one was baptised with water for repentance, which is not a symbol of repentance but is in fact part of repenting of sins in John's day. John prophesied about the baptism belonging to Jesus Christ that it would be with the Holy Spirit and fire. I think John was pointing to the nature of Christ's baptism as incorporating a person into Christ and conferring the Holy Spirit and applying cleansing fire to that person's sins since in Christ sins are purged completely leaving nothing whatever behind. Verse 12 refers to purging his, Christ's, winnowing floor and burning the chaff with unquenchable fire. I think that the burnt chaff is not individual people who are condemned to hell, instead it is a burning the chaff with fire that completely burns away all that is impure in the natural wheat grains, specifically people are pictured as wheat grains gathered by the harvesters and who are brought to Christ. In their natural state those people are covered in "chaff" but chaff is not wanted by God nor do those who follow Christ want to be encumbered by chaff, so John prophesies that Christ will winnow the faithful to remove the chaff, purge them of their impurities, and dispose of the chaff completely and permanently. Some of the things that this baptism into Christ accomplishes are accomplished here and now and some are accomplished at the consummation of each person's life and at the last judgement.

 

[Imalive]

There appeared tongues as of fire and it set on each of them.
Holy Spirit fire like a coal cleansing your lips and burning the chaff in your life away and setting you on fire for Him.
Duh.
Lol reminds me of a discussion w a jewish atheist. I said God was gonna send His fire on Holland and he got furious, thinking I wanted God to burn it literally. Revival man sheesh chill. Guess he never attended a catch the fire meeting.
Fire offer, no strange fire, it was even in the O.T.

 

[MoreCoffee]

There appeared tongues as of fire and it set on each of them.
Holy Spirit fire like a coal cleansing your lips and burning the chaff in your life away and setting you on fire for Him.
Duh.
Lol reminds me of a discussion w a jewish atheist. I said God was gonna send His fire on Holland and he got furious, thinking I wanted God to burn it literally. Revival man sheesh chill. Guess he never attended a catch the fire meeting.
Fire offer, no strange fire, it was even in the O.T.

If he was an atheist - this Jewish chap that you spoke to - then why would you expect that he ever even heard of a Pentecostal "catch the fire" meeting?

 

[Imalive]

If he was an atheist - this Jewish chap that you spoke to - then why would you expect that he ever even heard of a Pentecostal "catch the fire" meeting?

It was just dumb from me to use christian slang w him.
He had no idea what I meant.

 

[Imalive]

https://youtu.be/FczdNeLTFnk

 

[Imalive]

These are all nice thoughts, but Matthew 3 doesn't teach it. The context is right in front of you. No need to make up anything that isn't there. Let Acts 2 speak for itself.

Malachi does and thats about John the baptist.

“Behold, I send My messenger,
And he will prepare the way before Me.
And the Lord, whom you seek,
Will suddenly come to His temple,
Even the Messenger of the covenant,
In whom you delight.
Behold, He is coming,”
Says the Lord of hosts.
2 “But who can endure the day of His coming?
And who can stand when He appears?
For He is like a refiner’s fire
And like launderers’ soap.
3 He will sit as a refiner and a purifier of silver;
He will purify the sons of Levi,
And purge them as gold and silver,
That they may offer to the Lord
An offering in righteousness.
4 “Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem
Will be pleasant to the Lord,
As in the days of old,
As in former years.
5 And I will come near you for judgment;
I will be a swift witness
Against sorcerers,
Against adulterers,
Against perjurers,
Against those who exploit wage earners and widows and orphans,
And against those who turn away an alien—
Because they do not fear Me,”
Says the Lord of hosts.

 

[MennoSota]

Post Script: I think John was talking about the contrast between his baptism and baptism into Christ. With John's baptism one was baptised with water for repentance, which is not a symbol of repentance but is in fact part of repenting of sins in John's day. John prophesied about the baptism belonging to Jesus Christ that it would be with the Holy Spirit and fire. I think John was pointing to the nature of Christ's baptism as incorporating a person into Christ and conferring the Holy Spirit and applying cleansing fire to that person's sins since in Christ sins are purged completely leaving nothing whatever behind. Verse 12 refers to purging his, Christ's, winnowing floor and burning the chaff with unquenchable fire. I think that the burnt chaff is not individual people who are condemned to hell, instead it is a burning the chaff with fire that completely burns away all that is impure in the natural wheat grains, specifically people are pictured as wheat grains gathered by the harvesters and who are brought to Christ. In their natural state those people are covered in "chaff" but chaff is not wanted by God nor do those who follow Christ want to be encumbered by chaff, so John prophesies that Christ will winnow the faithful to remove the chaff, purge them of their impurities, and dispose of the chaff completely and permanently. Some of the things that this baptism into Christ accomplishes are accomplished here and now and some are accomplished at the consummation of each person's life and at the last judgement.

Finally...
Yes, there is a possibility that the fire is the cleansing sanctification of the saints via troubles and sorrows, etc. (In this world you will have many troubles, but take heart for I have overcome the world.) However, you have to ignore John's audience and his reference to the judgment where he says they will be cut off and burned in the fire. Then John moves in to present the baptism (immersion) by the Holy Spirit and by fire. The fire connects to the verse 10, ahead of verse 11. The fire is not brought up in a vacuum and left for us only to connect to the chaff in verse 12. Thus, I disagree that your interpretation is accurate to what John is stating to the Pharisees and Sadducees.

 

[MennoSota]

Malachi does and thats about John the baptist.

“Behold, I send My messenger,
And he will prepare the way before Me.
And the Lord, whom you seek,
Will suddenly come to His temple,
Even the Messenger of the covenant,
In whom you delight.
Behold, He is coming,”
Says the Lord of hosts.
2 “But who can endure the day of His coming?
And who can stand when He appears?
For He is like a refiner’s fire
And like launderers’ soap.
3 He will sit as a refiner and a purifier of silver;
He will purify the sons of Levi,
And purge them as gold and silver,
That they may offer to the Lord
An offering in righteousness.
4 “Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem
Will be pleasant to the Lord,
As in the days of old,
As in former years.
5 And I will come near you for judgment;
I will be a swift witness
Against sorcerers,
Against adulterers,
Against perjurers,
Against those who exploit wage earners and widows and orphans,
And against those who turn away an alien—
Because they do not fear Me,”
Says the Lord of hosts.

Nice passage and possibly one that John was considering. The context of the passage in Matthew 3 points to fire of judgment rather than fire of refinement.

 

[Imalive]

Nice passage and possibly one that John was considering. The context of the passage in Matthew 3 points to fire of judgment rather than fire of refinement.

no He baptizes w fire is just that He is an all consuming fire and either you let Him purify you or you get destroyed. If He destroys your old man and you cooperate its fun, otherwise not.

 

[user1234]

Praising my Saviour, all the day long!

 

[MennoSota]

no He baptizes w fire is just that He is an all consuming fire and either you let Him purify you or you get destroyed. If He destroys your old man and you cooperate its fun, otherwise not.

Your comment is not supported by the text in Matthew 3.

 

[Andrew]

Typologically, fire is used throughout scripture to signify the burning away of sin and the purification by God.

The water is for remission/forgiveness of previous sin and the fire is for the purification from future sin... do you agree with that?

Sent from my LGLS755 using Tapatalk

 

[Andrew]

Your comment is not supported by the text in Matthew 3.

How so? 3:12 seems to agree in parable

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[user1234]

Praising my Saviour, all the day long!

Wow, even that↑ ignored?! Not even worthy of a like?