Catholic Only Dogmas: There's something about Mary

[MoreCoffee]

I remember the comedy by the name "THERE'S SOMETHING ABOUT MARY" and the name kind of stuck as having a vague kind of value in discussing Catholic teaching about the Blessed Virgin Mary because, you see, there is something about the Blessed Virgin Mary that makes men and women think of her and appreciate her if they happen to be Orthodox or Catholic Christians. Others seem to be a little ambivalent about Mary and many simply put her to the back of the line and forget all about her except when they want to thrash some hapless Catholic with the allegation that the poor chap is an idolater because he (or she) kneels before a statue depicting Mary and her Blessed Son the Lord Jesus Christ. Well, I thought it might be helpful to gather all the Dogmas about Mary in this one post. Some of you may be surprised to hear that the whole lot can be gathered in one little post on a little chat board but suspend your incredulity! It can be done. Here they are, all of them :woot:

1) Mary is the mother of God, specifically the mother of the Lord Jesus Christ and since he is God incarnate and Mary is his mum it follows that Mary is the mother of God. I bet some of you will object to that, but when you think it through it cannot be avoided unless you try to divide Jesus into a human part and a God part and that is heresy. But I am sure some will still say it ... here's the doctrine as stated by the Ecumenical Council held in Chalcedon in the year 451 AD.

...begotten from the Father before the ages as regards his godhead, and in the last days, the same, because of us and because of our salvation begotten from the Virgin Mary, the Theotokos, as regards his manhood; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, only-begotten... (From the Council of Chalcedon 451 AD)
​

2) Mary is ever Virgin, meaning that Mary was a virgin before the Lord Jesus Christ was born (I reckon everybody will agree with that) and she remained a virgin after he was born (now a lot of folk get all worked up about that!). This Dogma was believed in the Church from the beginning, there was some debate about the meaning of Virgin and some thought it might have some kind of spiritual rather than a physical meaning but the Church settled the matter finally and completely in the year 649 AD at the council held in the church of Saint John Lateran in Rome; this was not an ecumenical council but the doctrine was taught and defined by it with anathema (excommunication) pronounced against all who denied it.
3) The immaculate conception of the virgin Mary, meaning that

the Blessed Virgin Mary, at the first instant of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace of the Omnipotent God, in virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of mankind, was preserved immaculate from all stain of original sin, has been revealed by God, and therefore should firmly and constantly be believed by all the faithful.

The dogma isn't about the miraculous birth of the Lord Jesus Christ; it's about Mary being prepared by God to be the mother of the Lord Jesus Christ who is our redeemer, saviour, and salvation. You can research this if you like in The Catholic Encyclopaedia (it was published around the beginning of the 20th century, a hundred years ago).
4) The assumption of the blessed virgin Mary, meaning that when Mary died (or if she didn't die then when her mission on Earth was finished) she was taken to heaven bodily and not left on Earth in a tomb as is the common lot of mankind. Thus like Enoch in the old testament and like the Prophet Elijah too Blessed Mary was taken to heaven.

There, you see, all done in one little post and just four Dogmas, not hundreds or whatever you may have heard or imagined

 

[George]

So the Assumption is the dogma that Mary was taken up to Heaven before death?

 

[MoreCoffee]

So the Assumption is the dogma that Mary was taken up to Heaven before death?

no.

 

[Josiah]

I remember the comedy by the name "THERE'S SOMETHING ABOUT MARY" and the name kind of stuck as having a vague kind of value in discussing Catholic teaching about the Blessed Virgin Mary because, you see, there is something about the Blessed Virgin Mary that makes men and women think of her and appreciate her if they happen to be Orthodox or Catholic Christians. Others seem to be a little ambivalent about Mary and many simply put her to the back of the line and forget all about her except when they want to thrash some hapless Catholic with the allegation that the poor chap is an idolater because he (or she) kneels before a statue depicting Mary and her Blessed Son the Lord Jesus Christ. Well, I thought it might be helpful to gather all the Dogmas about Mary in this one post. Some of you may be surprised to hear that the whole lot can be gathered in one little post on a little chat board but suspend your incredulity! It can be done. Here they are, all of them :woot:

1) Mary is the mother of God, specifically the mother of the Lord Jesus Christ and since he is God incarnate and Mary is his mum it follows that Mary is the mother of God. I bet some of you will object to that, but when you think it through it cannot be avoided unless you try to divide Jesus into a human part and a God part and that is heresy. But I am sure some will still say it ... here's the doctrine as stated by the Ecumenical Council held in Chalcedon in the year 451 AD.

...begotten from the Father before the ages as regards his godhead, and in the last days, the same, because of us and because of our salvation begotten from the Virgin Mary, the Theotokos, as regards his manhood; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, only-begotten... (From the Council of Chalcedon 451 AD)
​

2) Mary is ever Virgin, meaning that Mary was a virgin before the Lord Jesus Christ was born (I reckon everybody will agree with that) and she remained a virgin after he was born (now a lot of folk get all worked up about that!). This Dogma was believed in the Church from the beginning, there was some debate about the meaning of Virgin and some thought it might have some kind of spiritual rather than a physical meaning but the Church settled the matter finally and completely in the year 649 AD at the council held in the church of Saint John Lateran in Rome; this was not an ecumenical council but the doctrine was taught and defined by it with anathema (excommunication) pronounced against all who denied it.
3) The immaculate conception of the virgin Mary, meaning that
The dogma isn't about the miraculous birth of the Lord Jesus Christ; it's about Mary being prepared by God to be the mother of the Lord Jesus Christ who is our redeemer, saviour, and salvation. You can research this if you like in The Catholic Encyclopaedia (it was published around the beginning of the 20th century, a hundred years ago).
4) The assumption of the blessed virgin Mary, meaning that when Mary died (or if she didn't die then when her mission on Earth was finished) she was taken to heaven bodily and not left on Earth in a tomb as is the common lot of mankind. Thus like Enoch in the old testament and like the Prophet Elijah too Blessed Mary was taken to heaven.

There, you see, all done in one little post and just four Dogmas, not hundreds or whatever you may have heard or imagined

1. IMO, if there is love and respect for someone, then TRUTH matters. IF there is love and respect, we deplore gossip about that one and insist on truth. What stuns me about some of the Marian DOGMAS is they are gossip.... without an OUNCE of ANYTHING to REMOTELY indicate they are true, just BASELESS stuff ... perpetuated by people who have no clue or interest in whether it is actually true. In my Catholic days, our teachers taught us that GOSSIP is the spreading of some personal thing that we have not confirmed as true... and it was denounced as "sin". Yet, even as a Catholic child, I could not help but notice the RCC did this with Mary, often spreading things about Mary they would be highly, highly offended if it was said about their mother. IF Catholics actually love and respect Mary, they would be above all concerned about whether what they are spreading about her is TRUE, but the opposite is the case - like all gossipers, they just spread it... on and on and on and on.

2. DOGMA is a matter of highest importance possible and greatest certainty of fact possible. Binding and divisive; essential; associated with salvation itself. Yet these new RCC Marian DOGMAS (1807, 1904, 1950) are entirely BASELESS, with NOTHING to support them as true.... nothing. And contrary to being a matter of HIGHEST IMPORTANCE POSSIBLE, they are often entire irrelevant. What difference does it make if Mary was deprived of a normal, blessed marital life after Jesus was born..... what difference does it make to Catholics how often my parents have sex (if at all).... what difference does it make if Mary was specificially CONCEIVED without ORIGINAL sin or if her body was assumed into heaven? How can it be documented that these are matters of HIGHEST IMPORTANCE POSSIBLE, much less of GREATEST CERTAINTY POSSIBLE? If the RCC is - after all these many, many, many centuries - going to divide His Church, His Family over these matters, suggesting my eternal salvation is in question if I don't accept them AS DOGMA, then it should have support for them to the level claimed.... but it has NOTHING, to ANY level at all.

3. The views themselves do not ultimately concern me.... I don't even necessarily reject them as false. I just think they are not DOGMAS and I reject the RCC declaring them so.

4. The words of my Greek Orthodox friend keep ringing in my ears as I consider these baseless DOGMAS in the modern RCC: "The Roman Church simply will not leave well enough alone but constantly insists on messing things up." "The RCC simply will not shut up." This is a problem I have with that denomination, too.



- Josiah

 

[GenesisGirl]

no.

I have been under the impression that the Assumption of Mary concerned her body not dying here on earth and she was assumed to heaven. I found this quote so could you please tell us if it is genuine then, thank you.

On November 1, 1950, Pius XII defined the Assumption of Mary to be a dogma of faith: “We pronounce, declare and define it to be a divinely revealed dogma that the immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul to heavenly glory.” The pope proclaimed this dogma only after a broad consultation of bishops, theologians and laity. There were few dissenting voices. What the pope solemnly declared was already a common belief in the Catholic Church.

http://www.americancatholic.org/Features/Saints/Saint.aspx?id=1108

 

[MoreCoffee]

I have been under the impression that the Assumption of Mary concerned her body not dying here on earth and she was assumed to heaven. I found this quote so could you please tell us if it is genuine then, thank you.

http://www.americancatholic.org/Features/Saints/Saint.aspx?id=1108

Well, since the dogmatic definition says

“We pronounce, declare and define it to be a divinely revealed dogma that the immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul to heavenly glory.”
​

I do not see the difficulty. "having completed the course of her earthly life" could mean having died so I answered "no" because the dogma does not say that Blessed Mary was assumed while still living.

 

[GenesisGirl]

Thank you for clarifying this as the major difference is whether or not she was alive or dead at the assumption.

 

[andres88]

I agree. The Church has not declared that Mary didn't die; only that She was assumed to heaven at the end of her life.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Thank you for clarifying this as the major difference is whether or not she was alive or dead at the assumption.

You are welcome. It is worth remembering that Enoch was assumed into heaven without having died and that the same appears to be true of Elijah.

 

[Tigger]

The only Marian dogma I Can agree with is that the BVM is the mother of our Lord as quoted in scripture.
I believe she was ever virgin as explained in E.O. Tradition.
Wether she was taken up to paradise at the end of her life by assumption or dormition I do not know.


But one thing I do know is that I call her blessed.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The only Marian dogma I Can agree with is that the BVM is the mother of our Lord as quoted in scripture.
I believe she was ever virgin as explained in E.O. Tradition.
Wether she was taken up to paradise at the end of her life by assumption or dormition I do not know.


But one thing I do know is that I call her blessed.

So you can agree with only one dogma about Mary; specifically that she is the mother of the Lord (mother of God). Yet you say you agree with the perpetual virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary and you seem accepting of the assumption of Mary. That looks like two or three dogmas

 

[psalms 91]

I believe what the bible says and I really have a problem with praying to her

 

[Josiah]

So you can agree with only one dogma about Mary; specifically that she is the mother of the Lord (mother of God). Yet you say you agree with the perpetual virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary and you seem accepting of the assumption of Mary. That looks like two or three dogmas

There are TWO issues here: the teaching and the status. I think many Lutherans can accept some of these RCC Marian Dogmas as at least credible and traditional - but not as the DOGMA the RCC has made them to be. And of course, in epistemology, a position must be defended to the level claimed.

In Protestantism, there are two concepts entirely forgotten in modern, egotistical Catholicism: "Pious opinion" and "mystery." Pious opinion in Protestantism is a PERMITTED belief but not a MANDATED belief. Lutherans often understand it as something about which Scripture is silent (thus, Scripturally, neither dogma OR heresy) but about which there is solid, historic, ecumenical embrace. For Lutherans, many of the Marian views are permissible and MAY be believed and taught, but they are not binding, divisive DOGMA related to salvation. Indeed, several of the "issues" between modern Catholicism and others hinges on this: for example, if Transubstantiation/Accidents had been left as just one possible theory as those medieval, western, Roman Catholic theorists had intended, but the RCC made those pagan theories into dogmas in 1551 - creating the "problem." Mystery is another concept the RCC has entirely abandoned (although it still chants the word)... mystery (among other things) is the humility to accept what God in Scripture says without any attempt to deny or change or add to it but simply to leave it as God said it. My Greek Orthodox friend especially decries this abandonment in the RCC, often commenting "The Roman Church, in its extreme pride, just will not leave well enough alone but insists on messing things up." I'd add..... and then making it's messed up view a divisive, binding Dogma. One of the things that SO appealed to me as I moved out of the RCC and looked at Protestantism was the HUMILITY.... the embrace of MYSTERY.... the willingness to let things be.... the willingness to look at the whole of the church instead of just looking in the mirror at self as the RCC does.

Again, there are always TWO issues: the view and the status given to it. IF some of these Marian views had been left as they were first created, there probably would be little "debate" and little problem. But the RCC insists on "moving the goal posts" (again, as my Greek Orthodox friend laments) - 1870, 1904, 1950 - making unique (and irrelevant and BASELESS!) views into Dogma. It has an impact for Catholics, however, who now need to document/defend these to the level claimed: issues of highest importance possible, issues of greatest certainty possible (which they completely dodge and evade - because these views are BASELESS, as well as irrelevant).



- Josiah

 

[Tigger]

I could only make the first one a dogma because it's specifically stated in scripture. The second one is my personality preferred view but I could never expect it to be dogma and insist others agree. The Third one I don't hold to at all but wouldn't consider it heracy if someone else did because others were assumed in scripture.

So you can agree with only one dogma about Mary; specifically that she is the mother of the Lord (mother of God). Yet you say you agree with the perpetual virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary and you seem accepting of the assumption of Mary. That looks like two or three dogmas

 

[MoreCoffee]

There are TWO issues here: the teaching and the status. I think many Lutherans can accept some of these RCC Marian Dogmas as at least credible and traditional - but not as the DOGMA ...

I suspect that is why they are Lutherans. Catholics are not asking Lutherans to accept any dogma of the faith that they do not want to accept. But let's stick to the four dogmas that this thread is about. And remember that this is the Catholic subforum. It isn't the appropriate place for the kind of debate that your post appears to be.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I could only make the first one a dogma because it's specifically stated in scripture. The second one is my personality preferred view but I could never expect it to be dogma and insist others agree. The Third one I don't hold to at all but wouldn't consider it heracy if someone else did because others were assumed in scripture.

A dogma of the faith is binding only on those who are in full communion with the Catholic Church. Lutherans are not in full communion with the Catholic Church so nobody is asking you to be bound by Catholic dogma as long as you remain Lutheran.

Mind you, since dogmas are true the truth of them ought to bind all who know them. But learning the truth of each dogma can involve considerable study if one has been taught to reject it by those who teach a different faith.

 

[Josiah]

Mind you, since dogmas are true

Then show them to be so..... to the level insisted (a matter of highest importance possible and greatest certainty possible: dogma). And the "those that spread it spread it" only confirms it's "gossip nature." Mormons teach what Mormons teach too but you don't accept that THEREFORE it must be a dogmatic fact of highest importance possible and greatest certainty possible.... those who spread gossip spread the gossip: it's unrelated to such being true.

the truth of them ought

... to be shown. Not simply by insisting that those who spread it do so. It should be confirmed OUTSIDE of self, to the level claimed. Or is your point about "truth" irrelevant and simply ignored, circumvented, regarded irrelevant (at least in the case of Mary, she not being worthy of respect)?



- Josiah

 

[Alithis]

I remember the comedy by the name "THERE'S SOMETHING ABOUT MARY" and the name kind of stuck as having a vague kind of value in discussing Catholic teaching about the Blessed Virgin Mary because, you see, there is something about the Blessed Virgin Mary that makes men and women think of her and appreciate her if they happen to be Orthodox or Catholic Christians. Others seem to be a little ambivalent about Mary and many simply put her to the back of the line and forget all about her except when they want to thrash some hapless Catholic with the allegation that the poor chap is an idolater because he (or she) kneels before a statue depicting Mary and her Blessed Son the Lord Jesus Christ. Well, I thought it might be helpful to gather all the Dogmas about Mary in this one post. Some of you may be surprised to hear that the whole lot can be gathered in one little post on a little chat board but suspend your incredulity! It can be done. Here they are, all of them :woot:

1) Mary is the mother of God, specifically the mother of the Lord Jesus Christ and since he is God incarnate and Mary is his mum it follows that Mary is the mother of God. I bet some of you will object to that, but when you think it through it cannot be avoided unless you try to divide Jesus into a human part and a God part and that is heresy. But I am sure some will still say it ... here's the doctrine as stated by the Ecumenical Council held in Chalcedon in the year 451 AD.

...begotten from the Father before the ages as regards his godhead, and in the last days, the same, because of us and because of our salvation begotten from the Virgin Mary, the Theotokos, as regards his manhood; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, only-begotten... (From the Council of Chalcedon 451 AD)
​

2) Mary is ever Virgin, meaning that Mary was a virgin before the Lord Jesus Christ was born (I reckon everybody will agree with that) and she remained a virgin after he was born (now a lot of folk get all worked up about that!). This Dogma was believed in the Church from the beginning, there was some debate about the meaning of Virgin and some thought it might have some kind of spiritual rather than a physical meaning but the Church settled the matter finally and completely in the year 649 AD at the council held in the church of Saint John Lateran in Rome; this was not an ecumenical council but the doctrine was taught and defined by it with anathema (excommunication) pronounced against all who denied it.
3) The immaculate conception of the virgin Mary, meaning that
The dogma isn't about the miraculous birth of the Lord Jesus Christ; it's about Mary being prepared by God to be the mother of the Lord Jesus Christ who is our redeemer, saviour, and salvation. You can research this if you like in The Catholic Encyclopaedia (it was published around the beginning of the 20th century, a hundred years ago).
4) The assumption of the blessed virgin Mary, meaning that when Mary died (or if she didn't die then when her mission on Earth was finished) she was taken to heaven bodily and not left on Earth in a tomb as is the common lot of mankind. Thus like Enoch in the old testament and like the Prophet Elijah too Blessed Mary was taken to heaven.

There, you see, all done in one little post and just four Dogmas, not hundreds or whatever you may have heard or imagined

There is nothing in scripture that causes me to think any such things about mary (save she was a virgin when the word of god was conceived as flesh within her womb).she was born of the blood of the line of david who was born of the line of abraham who was born of the line of shem who was born of the line of adam who sinned . she was not divine not perpetual a virgin and cannot hear or answer prayers .. and you cannot refute what i have just said using the 66 books of the clear unambiguous scripture . there is ZERO scripture to support any of these blatantly false teachings . ZERO scripture as in NONE ZILCH NADA .to impose such teaching you must turn away from the bible and listen to sinful mans teachings .. you must oppose the bible in favor of another voice .and i note from your post that is exactly what you did .. as you did not use a single clear unambiguous scripture to support any of the claims .

 

[seekingsolace]

...and the gauntlet has been thrown down. :yikes:

 

[Romanos]

I am on the fence about Mary and veneration, but we also need to remember that the current Bible was created only a couple hundred years ago