White Nationalists rally - State of Emergency in Virginia

[Lamb]

http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/12/us/charlottesville-white-nationalists-rally/index.html

Virginia's governor declared an emergency, and police worked to disperse hundreds of protesters in Charlottesville after clashes broke out ahead of Saturday's "Unite the Right" rally of white nationalists and other right-wing groups.

What precipitated the rally was the removal of Confederate symbols. The news source does not state what caused the riots except that tensions were high.

 

[psalms 91]

While I dislike and disagree with the white supremisistsd I also disagree with removing confederate statues and the like.

 

[Lamb]

While I dislike and disagree with the white supremisistsd I also disagree with removing confederate statues and the like.

I agree. We can't just eliminate every little thing in our history because at one time someone felt uncomfortable.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The confederate heroes were responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands. Maybe they ought not be treated as heroes?

 

[tango]

The confederate heroes were responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands. Maybe they ought not be treated as heroes?

In which case presumably no military figures should be treated as heroes. Most people considered to be war heroes were successful in war, so presumably were also responsible (directly or indirectly) for large numbers of deaths of people on the other side.

 

[Stravinsk]

In which case presumably no military figures should be treated as heroes. Most people considered to be war heroes were successful in war, so presumably were also responsible (directly or indirectly) for large numbers of deaths of people on the other side.

Careful about being too logical, you might offend someone's sentimentality.

Or stumble upon unpopular truths of history (the ones the winners didn't write).

 

[MoreCoffee]

In which case presumably no military figures should be treated as heroes. Most people considered to be war heroes were successful in war, so presumably were also responsible (directly or indirectly) for large numbers of deaths of people on the other side.

Confederate armed forces were defending the system of slavery in their states; there is nothing heroic about defending human slavery. Military figures who are on the aggressive side in a war and who lead troops to kill thousands upon thousands are not heroes. Certainly not heroes for Christians.

 

[psalms 91]

Confederate armed forces were defending the system of slavery in their states; there is nothing heroic about defending human slavery. Military figures who are on the aggressive side in a war and who lead troops to kill thousands upon thousands are not heroes. Certainly not heroes for Christians.

What they were actually defending was states rights. They had the right to withdraw from the union but of course we know that wasnt allowed and after the war that is when the federal government began to get so strong.

 

[MoreCoffee]

What they were actually defending was states rights. They had the right to withdraw from the union but of course we know that wasnt allowed and after the war that is when the federal government began to get so strong.

The state right they wanted to defend was slavery laws.

 

[psalms 91]

The state right they wanted to defend was slavery laws.

That was a part but only a part, a bad part to be sure but they had the right to withdraw from thye union but the federalists won out. That is forgotten history as well.

 

[NewCreation435]

The confederate heroes were responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands. Maybe they ought not be treated as heroes?

Are you aware that the Union General, General Grant was referred to as "the butcher" because he didn't seem to care how many men he lost only that he won the battle?
I don't think there should be monuments at all of the civil war or those who fought in it. It was a shameful period of American history when families were divided and alot of people were hurt.
The actual statute removal that they were protesting was of General Lee. I think Lee himself would agree that it is time to take the statute down and move on

 

[MoreCoffee]

Are you aware that the Union General, General Grant was referred to as "the butcher" because he didn't seem to care how many men he lost only that he won the battle?
I don't think there should be monuments at all of the civil war or those who fought in it. It was a shameful period of American history when families were divided and alot of people were hurt.
The actual statute removal that they were protesting was of General Lee. I think Lee himself would agree that it is time to take the statute down and move on

I agree that no "heroes" for Christians ought to come from the ranks of generals and the like. Killing in war is dreadful. Being especially good at it or especially good at planning it ought to be seen as a shameful necessity if one's nation is attacked and just as shameful if one's nation does the attacking.

 

[Lamb]

Would the rally have remained non-violent if the counter protestors hadn't shown up?

 

[psalms 91]

I agree that no "heroes" for Christians ought to come from the ranks of generals and the like. Killing in war is dreadful. Being especially good at it or especially good at planning it ought to be seen as a shameful necessity if one's nation is attacked and just as shameful if one's nation does the attacking.

I guess then David and Abraham and Joshua were not heros and must have went against God? Is that right? I think not

 

[MoreCoffee]

I guess then David and Abraham and Joshua were not heros and must have went against God? Is that right? I think not

I never thought of Robert E Lee as being another Joshua, let alone a David or an Abraham. I can't recall any of the biblical characters fighting to Keep Israel a slave state but it is true that Israel did have slavery and laws governing slavery. I wonder why God gave them laws for something so repugnant.

 

[IACOBVS]

I never thought of Robert E Lee as being another Joshua, let alone a David or an Abraham. I can't recall any of the biblical characters fighting to Keep Israel a slave state but it is true that Israel did have slavery and laws governing slavery. I wonder why God gave them laws for something so repugnant.

Even though whoever wrote the books that contain the Law states that God gave it, Jesus cleared that up and said that Moses gave the Law. Some of the laws are downright evil, and could not have been given by a loving God.

 

[IACOBVS]

Would the rally have remained non-violent if the counter protestors hadn't shown up?

Thank God that there were people willing to stand up to evil.

 

[Lamb]

Thank God that there were people willing to stand up to evil.

Here's what concerns me. If I think back to bullies in high school, the rule was to ignore them to make them go away.

Now for a rally, why go and provoke them? Isn't that adding to the problem? If everyone had turned their backs, not given them attention and news coverage and simply ignored them, then it would have been a very boring rally with no one caring about their spew! And a woman would be alive today.

I saw a meme on Facebook of a counter protester punching a neo Nazi in the face. There is the problem. Pushing violence against those they don't agree with is not the solution.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Ignoring Adolf Hitler and his Nazi party didn't work well for Germany or the world. Ignoring Neonazis is not likely to work well for anybody.

 

[Stravinsk]

Ignoring Adolf Hitler and his Nazi party didn't work well for Germany or the world. Ignoring Neonazis is not likely to work well for anybody.

News flash - Adolf Hitler was the best thing to happen to Germany post world war 1. He was welcomed (not ignored) by the Germans and some surrounding nations precisely because he pulled the country out of the economic hell imposed on it by the "allied powers" (the supposed good guys).

But that's beside the point of this thread. Bringing up Hitler is meant to be a conversation stopper because of the emotions it invokes. That's why you've brought it up. You don't agree with the point of another and wish to use the worst example you can think of to hammer your point that they are in the wrong.

Well, I happen to agree with you in the sense that ignoring a group of people is sometimes not the answer, but answering them is.

Would you deny that right to people who march against GAY PRIDE parades and so forth? Or would you fall silent because you maybe agree with them?

*Awaits to see if MoreCoffee will chameleon out of free speech mode into gay/trans defender mode where everyone who disagrees is not exercising their freedom of speech but instead practicing bigotry and phobias*