Transgender in military...or not

[ImaginaryDay2]

What I'm really looking forward to is what happens after the "marriage supper of the Lamb". And what's going to happen to all of those straight boys on here.

Do tell...

 

[TurtleHare]

I started this thread because it's news. I saw people all over the internet proclaiming a surprise that President Trump would bring up this issue "out of the blue" and it wasn't out of the blue. I gave references that showed that this has been in the news all along. It is being discussed in the military which is something else I saw being proclaimed...that the military wasn't discussing it.

One of the links I gave actually gave some credibility as to the medical reasoning that Trump referred to. I had a cousin who couldn't get in the Army...there are actually some issues that hold people back from being able to enlist.


Here are two links that give MANY reasons why people cannot join the military:
http://www.military.com/join-armed-forces/disqualifiers-medical-conditions.html
http://www.military.com/join-armed-forces/other-causes-for-disqualification.html

Feelings can't trump facts no matter how many boo hoo and insist that someone is entitled to something because well, because everyone gets a trophy and there can't be limitations because we all are equal, except when we're not. Who is gonna run out on the field in the middle east to make sure some guy or guy wannabe gets his injection of hormones or weekly psychotherapy because he was depressed but depression can't be a cause of disqualifying can it? Oh yes it can and what's the ratio of trans who have depression has that been stated here in the thread but I'll tell ya I heard it's high.

 

[hedrick]

There's plenty of evidence that mental health issues are more common among the trans population. But I've learned that we need to look beyond that kind of information to see the details. See e.g. http://www.npr.org/sections/health-...the-complexities-of-transgender-mental-health. E.g. one study showing a large difference involved the following: "At the same time, most of these women were unemployed, more than a quarter lacked health insurance, and many lived in extreme poverty — all mental health stressors and potential effects of discrimination." Presumably this is not going to be the case in the military, assuming the military can stop its own people from bullying them.

The article showed a study of younger children with no problems. But they had good support.

I have limited time for research on this. I looked for good review articles that looked at the causes of mental health issues. This is the main one I found: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4887282/ It shows evidence that key factors are bullying and other attacks vs support. I don't think anyone knows what would happen if we could create a world with complete acceptance, but at least a fair amount of the problems are due to discrimination.

So what's the impact on the military? You could argue that the military isn't a place to help improve our society. But like it or not, it is a microcosm of our culture. Trying to remove any class of people who have potential issues would involve not just sexual identity but income, education, marital problems, and all sorts of other things. Furthermore, it's unlikely to succeed. So I think we'd be better off to make the military one place where you're accepted based on your ability to do the mission, and where discrimination due to other things is dealt with. Historically, minorities have found the military a good place to advance, precisely because it did accept anyone who was willing to do the mission.

 

[IACOBVS]

Indeed you are.

:smirk:

Haha. I was more blatant when I express such ideas to my priest. She said that although my theology was technically correct, I was naughty.

 

[IACOBVS]

People who are twice their ideal weight will be disqualified until such time that their weight is in line with what it should be. If someone can't shoot straight because they have bad vision they can't necessarily do anything about that either. Wearing glasses only works so far because if you lose your glasses in a combat situation it's not like you can just excuse yourself while you get a new pair. Sometimes people can't shoot straight because they are just not very well coordinated - you know, some people are just plain clumsy.

Sexuality isn't the same as gender identity.

The brutal truth is that the military is about combat effectiveness. Nothing more and nothing less. Anyone who requires special accommodation isn't going to fit in, whether that "special accommodation" is a daily shot of insulin (which can't be guaranteed in a war zone), daily hormone injections (likewise) or whatever else. If your presence diminishes combat effectiveness you can't be there. The military is there to fight, not to endlessly change and fit in this or that special case.

It doesn't work to say that asthmatics and diabetics can be excluded because of the special accommodations they might need but those in the process of changing gender are somehow special cases and have to be accommodated whatever the cost. There may be a case to be made for those who have completed a transition to be allowed to serve but if the presence of such a person would diminish the overall combat effectiveness

Edit: Not sure what happened to the last part, the final sentence should continue with "they must be excluded just like anyone else who diminished combat effectiveness".

As far as combat effectiveness goes, maybe it's the straight, homophobic men who need to be banned. Perhaps they're the ones who make the military ineffective. Just sayin'.

 

[IACOBVS]

Feelings can't trump facts no matter how many boo hoo and insist that someone is entitled to something because well, because everyone gets a trophy and there can't be limitations because we all are equal, except when we're not. Who is gonna run out on the field in the middle east to make sure some guy or guy wannabe gets his injection of hormones or weekly psychotherapy because he was depressed but depression can't be a cause of disqualifying can it? Oh yes it can and what's the ratio of trans who have depression has that been stated here in the thread but I'll tell ya I heard it's high.

Once again, what an asinine comment. Those who are on the meds and hormones required are very committed.

 

[IACOBVS]

There's plenty of evidence that mental health issues are more common among the trans population. But I've learned that we need to look beyond that kind of information to see the details. See e.g. http://www.npr.org/sections/health-...the-complexities-of-transgender-mental-health. E.g. one study showing a large difference involved the following: "At the same time, most of these women were unemployed, more than a quarter lacked health insurance, and many lived in extreme poverty — all mental health stressors and potential effects of discrimination." Presumably this is not going to be the case in the military, assuming the military can stop its own people from bullying them.

The article showed a study of younger children with no problems. But they had good support.

I have limited time for research on this. I looked for good review articles that looked at the causes of mental health issues. This is the main one I found: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4887282/ It shows evidence that key factors are bullying and other attacks vs support. I don't think anyone knows what would happen if we could create a world with complete acceptance, but at least a fair amount of the problems are due to discrimination.

So what's the impact on the military? You could argue that the military isn't a place to help improve our society. But like it or not, it is a microcosm of our culture. Trying to remove any class of people who have potential issues would involve not just sexual identity but income, education, marital problems, and all sorts of other things. Furthermore, it's unlikely to succeed. So I think we'd be better off to make the military one place where you're accepted based on your ability to do the mission, and where discrimination due to other things is dealt with. Historically, minorities have found the military a good place to advance, precisely because it did accept anyone who was willing to do the mission.

Did you even stop to think for even a moment as to what some of the underlying reasons for mental health issues with trans people might be? Could it be because of the hate that people like you heap upon them? What would your mental health be like if you were put into their situation? You comments, others on this thread, are asinine. And I will keep using that word. They are also hateful and unChristlike.

 

[hedrick]

Incidentally, "don't ask, don't tell" was almost the worst possible policy. (I will admit that ISIS has a worse one.) It didn't get rid of gays, but guaranteed that they were offically considered second-class citizens, with no way to deal with any discrimination.

 

[IACOBVS]

Do tell...

I don't have to tell. Just think a little past the meal. *rolls eyes*

 

[IACOBVS]

Not surprising is it?

The rest of us all stand together against you. When one of us is persecuted, we come together.

 

[tango]

The rest of us all stand together against you. When one of us is persecuted, we come together.

Just out of curiosity, who is "us" and who is "you"?

 

[Stravinsk]

I don't have to tell. Just think a little past the meal. *rolls eyes*

Yeah, I think anyone thinking about it got the picture, especially if they considered that a openly gay man who is also pro trans is the source.

Just curious though - since you've stated that gays have no choice, and that they were born that way - what, or who is the source of the joke itself, and your amusement at it? Would it be the same god you believe handed you your orientation? Did he make you laugh or find it amusing?


Speaking of orientation - do you allow for choice or preference of thought/fantasy at all in this - or is it only limited to homosexuality/heterosexuality? Because in my perusals of the net - there really seems to be something for every taste these days. Arguably, the woman with the snake or donkey fetish could say the same thing, she wouldn't be doing those things if she hadn't been "born" to be "oriented" towards them. Perhaps someday the word "perversion", as it applies to sexuality - will become a thing of the past, as everyone just realizes that any thought or action on a thought was really just part of god's great plan anyway?

 

[psalms 91]

Yeah, I think anyone thinking about it got the picture, especially if they considered that a openly gay man who is also pro trans is the source.

Just curious though - since you've stated that gays have no choice, and that they were born that way - what, or who is the source of the joke itself, and your amusement at it? Would it be the same god you believe handed you your orientation? Did he make you laugh or find it amusing?


Speaking of orientation - do you allow for choice or preference of thought/fantasy at all in this - or is it only limited to homosexuality/heterosexuality? Because in my perusals of the net - there really seems to be something for every taste these days. Arguably, the woman with the snake or donkey fetish could say the same thing, she wouldn't be doing those things if she hadn't been "born" to be "oriented" towards them. Perhaps someday the word "perversion", as it applies to sexuality - will become a thing of the past, as everyone just realizes that any thought or action on a thought was really just part of god's great plan anyway?

While I can see your toungue in cheek I would like to point out that it is satans plan to destroy morality and blur the lines for all sorts of perversion, doesnt make it right but it does point to end times when men become lovers of themselves and all things appear to be right

 

[IACOBVS]

Just out of curiosity, who is "us" and who is "you"?

Think... for a bit.. just once.

 

[psalms 91]

The rest of us all stand together against you. When one of us is persecuted, we come together.

I ahve a feeling that you will eventually grow tired of this especially since this site is not geared towsards your brand of perversion but hey knock yourself out trying

 

[IACOBVS]

Yeah, I think anyone thinking about it got the picture, especially if they considered that a openly gay man who is also pro trans is the source.

Just curious though - since you've stated that gays have no choice, and that they were born that way - what, or who is the source of the joke itself, and your amusement at it? Would it be the same god you believe handed you your orientation? Did he make you laugh or find it amusing?


Speaking of orientation - do you allow for choice or preference of thought/fantasy at all in this - or is it only limited to homosexuality/heterosexuality? Because in my perusals of the net - there really seems to be something for every taste these days. Arguably, the woman with the snake or donkey fetish could say the same thing, she wouldn't be doing those things if she hadn't been "born" to be "oriented" towards them. Perhaps someday the word "perversion", as it applies to sexuality - will become a thing of the past, as everyone just realizes that any thought or action on a thought was really just part of god's great plan anyway?

Once again... an asinine comment ... from a flat-earther. Not a whole lot of credibility there, now is there?

 

[IACOBVS]

Well, I gave my reason for starting this thread. You chose to think otherwise because of some of the responses. I haven't deceived you.

I never accused you of deceiving me. I merely say that you put out bait for haters to respond to, on purpose or not. Probably naively.

 

[IACOBVS]

I ahve a feeling that you will eventually grow tired of this especially since this site is not geared towsards your brand of perversion but hey knock yourself out trying

I will always stand against your Satanic view.

 

[IACOBVS]

I largely agree.....

And I do NOT think the military (um, we taxpayers) should pay for multilation surgeries.

On the one hand, personally, I don't care much about people's orientations as long as they behave themselves (publicly anyway) and respect others (including their moralities - which may be contrary to their own; "tolerance" is a two way street).

On the other hand, IF the military declared that transgender folks are incapable of providing any service in the military (or even are poor in such performance) then I agree the military should be able to exclude them. For the same reason that they exclude 80 year old men or blind people or even Type One Diabetics. It doesn't mean that old men or blind folks are less human, only less qualified to perform military duties. And I agree, the military is not some social experiment or "PC" model: it exists for one reason: to kill people and break things - and discourage others from doing that to us. That's it, that's all.



- Josiah

That was weak, but I'll let you off just because I like you. I hope your day is going well.

 

[Stravinsk]

Once again... an asinine comment ... from a flat-earther. Not a whole lot of credibility there, now is there?

I'm wowed at your acumen, your very well thought out point by point refutation to points I made or questions I had - and most especially your use of herd mentality contempt for a subject you have not yet, to date responded intelligently to - used to dismiss any point I could possibly make on any subject on this board.