What or Who is the Church?

[Lees]

I'm curious didn't the Jews consider the gentiles all other people?

If that is the case then the church would be made up of the gentiles wouldn't it - with the exception of the Jewish people that may believe in the Divinity of Christ?

Yes, the Jews did consider the gentiles as separate from them, the Jews, who were Gods chosen people. Only because God made that separation. (Deut. 14:2)

The Church is made up of both Jew and Gentile as a completely new body of believers. (Eph. 2:14-16)

Lees

 

[brightfame52]

The Old Testament Saints are part of Christ Body the Church, or they will not partake of the resurrection in the Last day which they had an eye to. Christ is the firstfruits 1 Cor 15:12-23

12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14 and if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 and if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

Jesus Christ is the resurrection Jn 11:24-25

24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life:

Paul testifies that the OT Fathers believed in the resurrection Acts 24:14-15

14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: 15 and have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Now the resurrection of the just, or Justified of all time is contingent upon being in Christ ! Its only in Him that all shall be made alive. That goes for King David, or the Philippian Jailor. 6

 

[1689Dave]

This came up in another thread and merits it's own discussion as there are differing opinions.

There are three classes of people to be observed in the Bible. Jews, Gentiles, and the Church. (1 Cor. 10:32)

Until God created the nation of Israel through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the 12 sons who became the 12 tribes, there was no such distinction between Jew and Gentile. In other words, from Adam to Abraham no such distinction existed. But once He did create the nation of Israel there has been and will forever be a distinction.

The same is true with the Church of Jesus Christ. The term 'church' can be used to reference any certain body such as Israel or the church in the wilderness. (Acts 7:38) But that is not the Church of Jesus Christ, His Body and Bride. The Church of Jesus Christ had it's beginning on the day of Pentecost and the coming of the Holy Spirit. Before that, there was no Church of Jesus Christ.

There were certainly believers before that. But, they were not part of the Church of Christ. They were certainly saved by Christ's sacrifice, as all believers are. But that doesn't make them part of the Body of Christ. The only way you can be part of the Body of Christ is through faith in Christ and the Spirit of Christ imparted to you. Born-again. (Rom. 8:9) And that could not happen until Pentecost.

So, recognizing these distinctions, Jew, Gentile and the Church, goes a long way in understanding the Scriptures. Ignoring these distinctions goes a long way in confusion.

In my opinion.

Lees

The Church has always been the Church of Jesus Christ. How so? Jesus Christ is the name YHWH according to Jude and others.

“Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.” Jude 5 (ESV)

Also Paul;

“and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they were all drinking from the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.” (1 Corinthians 10:4)

“Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.” 1 Corinthians 10:9 (KJV 1900)

 

[brightfame52]

1689 dave

The Church has always been the Church of Jesus Christ. How so? Jesus Christ is the name YHWH according to Jude and others.

Also Jesus Christ was head of His Body the Church from the beginning at creation Col 1:15-18

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Prov 8:22-23

22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

In other words Christs headship of His Church existed prior to Adams headship of it naturally, hence Christ has the preeminence in all things !

 

[Lees]

The Church has always been the Church of Jesus Christ. How so? Jesus Christ is the name YHWH according to Jude and others.

“Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.” Jude 5 (ESV)

Also Paul;

“and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they were all drinking from the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.” (1 Corinthians 10:4)

“Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.” 1 Corinthians 10:9 (KJV 1900)

You might want to read through what has already been said. Not that I'm hopeful that it would do any good.

No. The Church of Christ could not exist until after the Cross. (Eph. 2:14-16) (Eph. 3:5-6)

Concerning (Jude 5): The Son as God is always invovled in everything God does. That doesn't mean the Church of Christ started in Egypt.

Concerning (1 Cor. 10:4): Christ was the Rock only as the Son. He as the Son was not yet Jesus as He had no human Body.

Concerning (1 Cor. 10:9): I'ts unclear that 'also tempted' is speaking to Christ or just the temptation. Even if it did, again, Christ was the Son during days of the wilderness tempations. He was not Jesus with a human body.

Lees

 

[1689Dave]

You might want to read through what has already been said. Not that I'm hopeful that it would do any good.

No. The Church of Christ could not exist until after the Cross. (Eph. 2:14-16) (Eph. 3:5-6)

Concerning (Jude 5): The Son as God is always invovled in everything God does. That doesn't mean the Church of Christ started in Egypt.

Concerning (1 Cor. 10:4): Christ was the Rock only as the Son. He as the Son was not yet Jesus as He had no human Body.

Concerning (1 Cor. 10:9): I'ts unclear that 'also tempted' is speaking to Christ or just the temptation. Even if it did, again, Christ was the Son during days of the wilderness tempations. He was not Jesus with a human body.

Lees

Did you know the OT mentions the church over 300 times? How about Stephen's proof?

“This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:” Acts 7:38 (KJV 1900)

Church = ἐκκλησία = ⓐ of OT Israelites assembly, congregation (Dt 31:30; Judg 20:2; 1 Km 17:47; 3 Km 8:14; PsSol 10:6; TestJob 32:8 τῆς εὐώδους ἐ.; Philo; Jos., Ant. 4, 309; Diod S 40, 3, 6) Hb 2:12 (Ps 21:23); e.g. to hear the law (Dt 4:10; 9:10; 18:16) Ac 7:38.

That's right, church = congregation of the Lord over 300 times.

Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). In A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 303). University of Chicago Press.

 

[Lees]

Did you know the OT mentions the church over 300 times? How about Stephen's proof?

“This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:” Acts 7:38 (KJV 1900)

Church = ἐκκλησία = ⓐ of OT Israelites assembly, congregation (Dt 31:30; Judg 20:2; 1 Km 17:47; 3 Km 8:14; PsSol 10:6; TestJob 32:8 τῆς εὐώδους ἐ.; Philo; Jos., Ant. 4, 309; Diod S 40, 3, 6) Hb 2:12 (Ps 21:23); e.g. to hear the law (Dt 4:10; 9:10; 18:16) Ac 7:38.

That's right, church = congregation of the Lord over 300 times.

Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). In A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 303). University of Chicago Press.

Please pay attention. You need to read through what has already been said. A church can be any group of people. The Church of Jesus Christ is His group. His Body. His Bride.

I just showed you that the Church of Jesus Christ, His Body and Bride, could not exist until after the Cross. (Eph. 2:14-16) (Eph. 3:5-6)

Lees

 

[1689Dave]

Please pay attention. You need to read through what has already been said. A church can be any group of people. The Church of Jesus Christ is His group. His Body. His Bride.

I just showed you that the Church of Jesus Christ, His Body and Bride, could not exist until after the Cross. (Eph. 2:14-16) (Eph. 3:5-6)

Lees

Jesus Christ = YHWH in the NT. It's the same church (Israel) in both covenants only with the unbelievers now banished from Israel.

 

[Lees]

Jesus Christ = YHWH in the NT. It's the same church (Israel) in both covenants only with the unbelievers now banished from Israel.

No. It's not. I just showed you in (Eph. 2:14-16) and (Eph. 3:5-6). The Church of Jesus Christ could not exist until after the Cross. Scripture is clear.

Lees

 

[1689Dave]

No. It's not. I just showed you in (Eph. 2:14-16) and (Eph. 3:5-6). The Church of Jesus Christ could not exist until after the Cross. Scripture is clear.

Lees

Jesus is the lamb slain before the foundation of the world. Eternal life is co-eternal in God, without beginning or end for those who believe in Jesus.

 

[Lees]

Jesus is the lamb slain before the foundation of the world. Eternal life is co-eternal in God, without beginning or end for those who believe in Jesus.

Again, you need to read what has already been said.

Your statement here does not refute (Eph. 2:14-16) and (Eph. 3;5-6), which show the Church of Christ could not have begun until after the Cross.

Lees

 

[1689Dave]

Again, you need to read what has already been said.

Your statement here does not refute (Eph. 2:14-16) and (Eph. 3;5-6), which show the Church of Christ could not have begun until after the Cross.

Lees

I suggest that you do not understand those passages. As I said. the truth cannot change. The gospel is always present in the OT and the NT. Only we have more of it now.

 

[Lees]

I suggest that you do not understand those passages. As I said. the truth cannot change. The gospel is always present in the OT and the NT. Only we have more of it now.

You can suggest all you want. But you don't explain the verses. Why? Because you can't. Because they show the Church of Christ could not have existed until after the Cross.

You don't know the difference between one Gospel and another. But you are full of .....general phrases.

Lees

 

[1689Dave]

You can suggest all you want. But you don't explain the verses. Why? Because you can't. Because they show the Church of Christ could not have existed until after the Cross.

You don't know the difference between one Gospel and another. But you are full of .....general phrases.

Lees

Let's say I cannot explain the verses in an acceptable way to a Dispensationalist. First, there are no Dispensations in the way you conceive the word.

BTW, can you think of the first mention of the gospel in the OT? Without looking it up? It has not changed in all these centuries. But Paul's dispensing of the truth in the fullness of times contains much more info.

 

[Lees]

No. Let's say you don't want to explain the verses because they prove the Church couldn't begin till after the Cross. They are pretty sef-explanatory.

(Eph. 2:14-16) "For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us. Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of cammandments contained in ordeinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:"

The Church of Christ is that One Body. It could not exist till after the Cross. It came into existence some 50 days later at Pentacost.

(1 Cor. 12:13) "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body....."

Concerning the Gospel, say what you want to and I will address it.

Lees

 

[1689Dave]

No. Let's say you don't want to explain the verses because they prove the Church couldn't begin till after the Cross. They are pretty sef-explanatory.

(Eph. 2:14-16) "For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us. Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of cammandments contained in ordeinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:"

The Church of Christ is that One Body. It could not exist till after the Cross. It came into existence some 50 days later at Pentacost.

(1 Cor. 12:13) "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body....."

Concerning the Gospel, say what you want to and I will address it.

Lees

“That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;” Ephesians 2:12–14 (KJV 1900)

You should be able to see that OT believers who belonged to Israel now included believers who were formerly aliens.

 

[Lees]

“That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;” Ephesians 2:12–14 (KJV 1900)

You should be able to see that OT believers who belonged to Israel now included believers who were formerly aliens.

No. I don't see that at all.

The Gentiles who were brought in to commonwealth were brought into the Church...with believing Jews, into a New and One Body. Just as (Eph. 2:14-16) and (Eph. 3:6) and (1 Cor. 12:13) clearly state. There could be no Church till after the Cross.

The Church of Jesus Christ started on the day of Pentecost.

Lees

 

[1689Dave]

No. I don't see that at all.

The Gentiles who were brought in to commonwealth were brought into the Church...with believing Jews, into a New and One Body. Just as (Eph. 2:14-16) and (Eph. 3:6) and (1 Cor. 12:13) clearly state. There could be no Church till after the Cross.

The Church of Jesus Christ started on the day of Pentecost.

Lees

If Jesus is YHWH, how could the Church in the wilderness not be the same Church? Only now with all unbelievers banished?

 

[Lees]

If Jesus is YHWH, how could the Church in the wilderness not be the same Church? Only now with all unbelievers banished?

I've already told you. Post #(215).

Lees

 

[1689Dave]

I've already told you. Post #(215).

Lees

You are denying that God added gentile believers to the Church already in place according to Ephesians.