What do Lutherans believe?

Imalive

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If I understand you, you are saying that such a person is a Christian but not saved. Yet you know that because the JW and Mormons hold to some unorthodox beliefs, even while accepting Jesus, it is commonplace for Christians to say that those religions actually are not Christian.

JW's believe Jesus is Michael the archangel, so thats another Jesus and mormons, my, had to look that up:

unlike Christian Trinitarianism (one God existing in three Persons), Mormons believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three separate gods. They also believe the Father and Son each have a “body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s” but that the Holy Ghost “has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit.” According to Joseph Smith, when Adam was formed in the image of God, it was a physical image. God the Father was once a mortal who lived on an earth. He died, was resurrected, glorified, and grew into his deified status. (According to Joseph Smith, there is a “God above the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.”) God the Father is the literal father of all spirit-children, including Jesus and the Holy Ghost, whose divinity is derived from the parent-child relationship. Within Mormonism, Jesus is identified with the Yahweh of the Old Testament.
So they're not christian.
Catholics believe Jesus is Lord. Throwing them on one heap w mormons is like throwing the Word of Faith on one heap w that, which is nonsense. There are weird WOF teachers, but I've been told they fly around in their private jets, those ravenous wolves. Well I know one who borrows my bike. Goodness Dutch reformed said real good WOF or charismatic teachers were evil and unchristian. People should stop judging if they don't know.
 

Imalive

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Catholics like to say that, but it is not true. The Church was called Roman before the Reformation and it is used by the church herself when filing legal documents in this country. OTOH, Romanist was introduced during the Reformation, but how often do you hear anyone use that word?

Yes Roomsen. If someone is very uptight we say he's more Rooms than the pope.
 

Imalive

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Albion

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JW's believe Jesus is Michael the archangel, so thats another Jesus and mormons, my, had to look that up:

unlike Christian Trinitarianism (one God existing in three Persons), Mormons believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three separate gods. They also believe the Father and Son each have a “body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s” but that the Holy Ghost “has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit.” According to Joseph Smith, when Adam was formed in the image of God, it was a physical image. God the Father was once a mortal who lived on an earth. He died, was resurrected, glorified, and grew into his deified status. (According to Joseph Smith, there is a “God above the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.”) God the Father is the literal father of all spirit-children, including Jesus and the Holy Ghost, whose divinity is derived from the parent-child relationship. Within Mormonism, Jesus is identified with the Yahweh of the Old Testament.
So they're not christian. Catholics believe Jesus is Lord.
Yes, but they also believe that one man is infallible when making doctrine which the faithful are under the obligation to believe on pain of mortal sin. So is this not what a cult does and is perhaps deserving of the same condemnation as you explained in the case of the JWs or Mormons?
 

Josiah

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Albion

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Yes Roomsen. If someone is very uptight we say he's more Rooms than the pope.
Okay, so we have identified one person who commonly uses the term. That doesn't sound like much for Roman Catholics to be pouting about. They wont even call our churches by the word church, you know.
 

Imalive

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Yes, but they also believe that one man is infallible when making doctrine which the faithful are under the obligation to believe on pain of mortal sin. So is this not what a cult does and is perhaps deserving of the same condemnation as you explained in the case of the JWs or Mormons?

But they don't believe that I thought. Some maybe or a lot. But the reformed do that too. Calvin this. Calvin that. 5 points. Every church has their own holy men that some worship and others not.
 

MoreCoffee

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:focus:

:sled:

:dog:
 

Tigger

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51r-mNGFkWL._AC_US218_.jpg


I just ordered this book and it should be here within the week. I'm a very practically minded person and like to see how theology is played out in our daily life's. Just hoping it comes with pics :glasses:
 

Tigger

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Here's a little video clip about the book.



 

user1234

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Yes I think so. Cause Catholics are not christians of course and secretly MoreCoffee is the pope who wants to convert us to Buddhism.
Corrie ten Boom was in a concentration camp and if someone was a catholic she was like: yes!!! another christian!!! and they worked together to get the rest of the ppl there saved before they got killed.
I find it so arrogant from protestants to assume catholics are not christian and then their own reformation leaders were murderers but that doesnt matter at all. If someone says they're reformed or evangelical it doesnt mean that they're christian. Some dont even know Jesus and live like the devil, but to throw the whole bunch on one heap just because their theology is not exactly like yours I find dumb.
To throw the whole bunch on one heap???
And because THEIR THEOLOGY IS NOT LIKE MINE?
Obviously you dont even know 'My Theology' and obviously didnt read my post, or chose to twist what I said, (a more common occurance around here), and the personal digs and little teamwork insults are getting rather old but revealing. Its a shame, really, but I told you exactly what would happen.

Anyway, Corrie was a hero and had a spine, she wouldnt be like alot of 'christian men on computers' of today.
And I'm sure when the time was right, she would tell a RomanCatholic the gospel, not let him tell her what's what about Jesus and the bible.

Im also guessing she rejected the Roman pope and wasnt a member of that denomination, perhaps Im wrong.

Btw, can someone define protestant today, please, and please dont call me one, (if thats what you were implying, along with another 'arrogance' accusation?)

I find it arrogant of the RC denomination to be the true church of Christ on earth, but thats 'THE DENOMINATION' not all the people, but it doesnt seem to matter how many times Ive made that distinction, some ppl get a lie or false accusation locked in their head, and no amount of truth or reasoning can seem to change that.
Only God change the heart and mind in those situations, and I pray He does.

You mentioned another member in your post, I guess in a way to try to hurt me with some kind of insinuation or sarcasm, well, since you brought it up, I asked on a couple of occasions way back when, when I was pretty new to this, and didnt know the rules about how everyone has to assume everyone else is saved, I was just being honest and wanted to know, because he was being disparaging of christians, particularly the term bornagain, so I asked if he was saved, and on a couple of occasions, he refused to even answer.
Thats fine, I was just wanting to know if he was a friend or foe.
If he's saved now, praise the Lord, thats great, we can rejoice together. But its a change from what was indicated a while back. Most ppl who are, say yes, or at least engage in discussion about it.
Back then it seemed to be taken almost as an insult, rather than a cause for rejoicing together, and I got pushed aside. So I went on a different assumption. Now I know the sites rules a little bit, and know not to assume that.

I quite obviously can work with ppl of different denominations, and even other beliefs. You're the only one whos ever accused me that I couldnt.
But thats on secondary issues, not the gospel of grace.
But anyway, its not like we're in WorldWar2 in a an underground hideout with bullets flying. A bit extreme, dont you think?

And as you know, I have friends and many members of my family who are RC, you know that, and at least one I know is saved, and you know him, too, I just got off the phone with him. He cares for you and you know it, just as I do, and he asks about you, but you just dont seem to care about those things.

Maybe you have some point youre trying to make, but there's a difference between disliking THINGS that a denomination teaches or practices, whether its RC, Baptist, Pentecostal or some other, and the PEOPLE in those pews worshipping on any given Sunday. No matter how many times IVE made that distinction, some ppl just choose to ignore whats true and continue to make false accusations.

Meanwhile, Ive seen MANY a PERSON, not a denomination, but a brother (assumed), a believer (assumed), be trashed personally, whether its John Calvin, Martin Luther, even our BROTHER Paul, its gotten really nasty sometimes. There really is a difference between an institution and human being, and I really wish you would realize that, because you seem to get it backwards at times, I dont know if its by accident or on purpose, but sometimes it really hurts.
 

Albion

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But they don't believe that I thought. Some maybe or a lot. But the reformed do that too. Calvin this. Calvin that. 5 points. Every church has their own holy men that some worship and others not.
Wrong. You are confusing a high regard for a former leader with a doctrine that holds that the head of the church, whoever he may be at the moment, is actually INFALLIBLE and that the church member who doesn't believe the doctrines he decrees is a heretic and may be jeopardizing his salvation as a result.
 

MennoSota

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After catching up on the fascinating banter...I think MC is correct, neither Romans nor Lutherans, practically speaking, support Sola Scriptura. Both rely heavily upon their catachisms, which have little to no scriptural references and those that are used are mostly taken out of context.
Second, the wafer is not miraculously changed to Jesus flesh nor is the wine miraculously changed to Jesus blood when you partake of communion. Jesus was alive and moving when he instituted the Sadir meal with the idea that he is the sacrificial lamb. Jesus didn't cut out a piece of his thigh and say "this is my body." He didn't cut an artery, drain a pint of blood and say "this is my blood." No, that would be abhorrent. He clearly was speaking symbolically, just as the Sadir meal symbolically represented the Passover.
Communion is a solemn remembrance. Don't turn it into some ritual blood letting and human sacrifice ceremony. Shiver.
Let God's word be our guide. Let it sharpen us and equip us. Let other commentaries be interesting reference books, but don't worship them as the way to faith. They arent, just as Crews 4 Spiritual laws pamphlet or D James Kennedys presbyterian church growth plan is only a commentary. We may find truth in all of them, but it is only truth in so far as they align clearly with scripture. If scripture does not align with the teachings of those secondary sources...then throw the secondary sources out. They are anathema. God's word is our primary source and it is the standard that defines truth.
 

Josiah

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Lutherans, practically speaking, support Sola Scriptura

It's not possible to "support" Sola Scriptura. It's only possible to use the practice. As I noted earlier, you, being Reformed, are not going to agree with the arbitration according to the Rule that Lutherans reach, but that's entirely unrelated to whether they are using that rule.


Both rely heavily upon their catachisms

Virtually all denominations define their doctrine somewhere. All the Reformed denominations do. When one is declaring what that denomination proclaims, all of them note their statements of faith. Just as all Reformed denominations do. The various catechisms are simply one such place where statements of teachings are made - for Lutherans, Catholics, Reformed and elsewhere.

But of course the Lutheran (and Reformed) denominational confession (including catechism) are not norma normans but only norma normata - but then you know that.



Second, the wafer is not miraculously changed to Jesus flesh nor is the wine miraculously changed to Jesus blood

Lutherans do not believe it is. We boldly reject Transubstantiation.




.
 

MennoSota

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It's not possible to "support" Sola Scriptura. It's only possible to use the practice. As I noted earlier, you, being Reformed, are not going to agree with the arbitration according to the Rule that Lutherans reach, but that's entirely unrelated to whether they are using that rule.




Virtually all denominations define their doctrine somewhere. All the Reformed denominations do. When one is declaring what that denomination proclaims, all of them note their statements of faith. Just as all Reformed denominations do. The various catechisms are simply one such place where statements of teachings are made - for Lutherans, Catholics, Reformed and elsewhere.

But of course the Lutheran (and Reformed) denominational confession (including catechism) are not norma normans but only norma normata - but then you know that.





Lutherans do not believe it is. We boldly reject Transubstantiation.




.

Okay, Lutherans don't practice Sola Scriptura. They practice catechismal litugy. Much like the Roman church a few verses will be read, without exposition, and a liturgy will be read that doesn't relate to the scripture.
Yes, most churches have statements of faith, that are expressed so that those who choose to attend can know the basic doctrinal stance. Attendees are expected to listen, take notes, ask questions and cross check what is taught with the scriptures. In other words, be like the Bereans.
Lutherans teach consubstantiation, which just means they think the wafers and wine turn to meat and blood a little later than the Romans.
Finally, what do Norma and Norman Gustafson have to do with this besides being good Scandinavian Lutherans? [emoji41]
 
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