Water Baptism

[MoreCoffee]

I read the article by Piper and I liked it.
The whole exchange between you and Menno appears to be as unproductive as my exchanges with Josiah.

I agree, and so I have disengaged from it because not even the passages can be discussed when no attempt is made - no serious attempt - to deal with what the passage says rather than rehearsing one's theological stance again and again. You experience that with Josiah and I with Mennosota.

PS: I also experience it with Josiah, so I rarely engage with him except to make a public statement that others may benefit from if they are inclined to read my replies to Josiah.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Here's a musical thought about discussing baptism in this thread with Mennosota

 

[MennoSota]

It is odd when someone claims that baptism saves, but then says salvation is a multi step process so that one cannot definitively declare that they are indeed saved by baptism. It's like saying water is wet, but it isn't completely wet.
So, either baptism fully saves or it doesn't.
The double-speak and twisting regarding baptism and salvation is not coming from me. Nor, have I been speaking around what Peter has said about baptism and salvation. I have addressed each scripture provided from the moronic claim that John 3:5 is about baptism to the claim about baptism and the flood in 1 Peter. In between this I have addressed the household claims on water baptism.

It is clear that MC has a very different understanding regarding salvation. It is a teaching I have never heard before where he breaks salvation into a three part trilogy of required actions in order for one to be saved. In it, I wonder where and if grace is needed. Baptism is just the first step in the trilogy.
I do not see this trilogy of salvation taught in scripture. I do think there is a significant impass as I mentioned earlier.
It is interesting to read the trilogy being expressed, however, because it's as foreign as a Buddhist monk teaching reincarnation to me. It's not anything I see in scripture. I guess you would need to be raised in the Roman church to understand the trilogy.

 

[Josiah]

There is no law against water baptizing anyone

Correct.


Nor any mandate that we must ONLY baptize those who have first in chronological time given statement that they had previously chosen Jesus as their personal Savior.


Thus, Credobaptism is not found in the Bible. Nor in history. Nor in Traditon. Nor in the Councils. Nor in the Rule of Faith, nor ANYWHERE.... until the late 16th Century when some Anabaptist dreamed it up; it is an Anabaptist/Baptist tradition.


You have insisted repeatedly (it is your constant mantra, lol) that we MUST reject ANY and ALL views not stated in Scripture and ALL denomination tradition (that includes Baptist tradition). So, since you now agree this Dogma is not found in Scripture.... and is pure Baptist Tradition, what should we do with this Dogma of Credobaptism?





,

 

[MennoSota]

Correct.


Nor any mandate that we must ONLY baptize those who have first in chronological time given statement that they had previously chosen Jesus as their personal Savior.


Thus, Credobaptism is not found in the Bible. Nor in history. Nor in Traditon. Nor in the Councils. Nor in the Rule of Faith, nor ANYWHERE.... until the late 16th Century when some Anabaptist dreamed it up; it is an Anabaptist/Baptist tradition.


You have insisted repeatedly (it is your constant mantra, lol) that we MUST reject ANY and ALL views not stated in Scripture and ALL denomination tradition (that includes Baptist tradition). So, since you now agree this Dogma is not found in Scripture.... and is pure Baptist Tradition, what should we do with this Dogma of Credobaptism?





,

I note you cut off all the rest of what I said. I wonder if you just refuse to comprehend any further.

 

[Arsenios]

How is that “Good News”?
How is that different from the Law of Moses?

The Kingdom of Heaven was never entered into under Mosaic Law...
Because it had not yet been introduced upon this earth...
Christ incarnated, and it is Christ Who IS the Kingdom of Heaven...
We are Baptized INTO Christ, you see -

The Risen Christ!


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Yet, baptism is not entry into heaven, as evidenced by your post previous to this.
It seems that you and MC speak with forked tongue so that saved doesn't really mean saved unless you save yourself.

Christ Baptizes you into Himself through His Servants...

As Ananias Baptized Saul into Christ...

Your future is predicated on your willingness to continue in the Faith of Christ...

And how much you do so, and for what reasons...

Salvation is your personal relationship knowing Christ...

eg In union with Christ...

Some consecrate their every minute to Christ...

Others show up every Sunday...

Others every Christmas and Pascha...

Others not at all...

Salvation is your entry into and abidance within the Kingdom of the Heavens on earth...

It is ongoing, and developing and living and Holy...

Overcoming demonic powers and principalities...

Or at least contending against them...

Falling and arising and falling and arising...


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Christ Baptizes you into Himself through His Servants...

As Ananias Baptized Saul into Christ...

Your future is predicated on your willingness to continue in the Faith of Christ...

And how much you do so, and for what reasons...

Salvation is your personal relationship knowing Christ...

eg In union with Christ...

Some consecrate their every minute to Christ...

Others show up every Sunday...

Others every Christmas and Pascha...

Others not at all...

Salvation is your entry into and abidance within the Kingdom of the Heavens on earth...

It is ongoing, and developing and living and Holy...

Overcoming demonic powers and principalities...

Or at least contending against them...

Falling and arising and falling and arising...


Arsenios

You must realize you are making up a theory of water baptism that is not expressed in scripture. But, you still push the dogma anyway.

 

[Arsenios]

You must realize you are making up a theory of water baptism that is not expressed in scripture. But, you still push the dogma anyway.

EVERY Apostolic Church Baptizes in Water AND in the Holy Spirit...

"Unless you are born of Water and Spirit..."

You cannot find even ONE that does not...

They have ALL done so since Christ commanded them to do so as recorded in Matthew and elsewhere...

Did Christ command them WRONGLY as you ACCUSE??

Or did Christ somehow FAIL to impart His teaching, as you insist must have happened??

Why do you accuse Christ of failure in the Doctrine of Baptisms as recorded in Hebrews?


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

EVERY Apostolic Church Baptizes in Water AND in the Holy Spirit...

"Unless you are born of Water and Spirit..."

You cannot find even ONE that does not...

They have ALL done so since Christ commanded them to do so as recorded in Matthew and elsewhere...

Did Christ command them WRONGLY as you ACCUSE??

Or did Christ somehow FAIL to impart His teaching, as you insist must have happened??

Why do you accuse Christ of failure in the Doctrine of Baptisms as recorded in Hebrews?


Arsenios

I can do nothing about your church being wrong for over 1800 years as some early wolf brought heresy to the sheep. It certainly isn't what the Apostles taught so that means it was some other leader who took the church down the wrong path in regard to baptism.
Wrong is wrong no matter how many years of wrongness you can count.

 

[Arsenios]

I can do nothing about your church being wrong for over 1800 years as some early wolf brought heresy to the sheep. It certainly isn't what the Apostles taught so that means it was some other leader who took the church down the wrong path in regard to baptism.
Wrong is wrong no matter how many years of wrongness you can count.

I am sorry you think that Christ was unable to disciple...
Not even ONE historic Church...
For one thousand five hundred years...
To teach your personal opinions on Baptisms...

Menno...

He was accused of worse, I suppose, by the Pharisees...

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

I am sorry you think that Christ was unable to disciple...
Not even ONE historic Church...
For one thousand five hundred years...
To teach your personal opinions on Baptisms...

Menno...

He was accused of worse, I suppose, by the Pharisees...

Arsenios

What a foolish statement by you, Arsenios. Christ did not support your churches teaching about baptism. That is why God brought Reformation. Your church failed to safeguard against heresy. Peter warned us. We reformed in alignment with scripture as the Apostles and Christ actually taught.
2 Peter 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

Arsenios, I am sorry your church failed to walk in step with the Spirit of God. I am glad God reformed his church.

 

[Arsenios]

I am glad God reformed his church.

Your beliefs are the mis-carriage that Reformation birthed...

I am glad that God sent the Reformation against the western Latin Church too...

She would not and has not repented of her heresies...

And God will not be mocked...

Nor would he be mocked by the Russian Church...

To Whom He sent 80 years of atheist persecutions...

And the Russian Church repented...

Unlike Rome to date...


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Your beliefs are the mis-carriage that Reformation birthed...

I am glad that God sent the Reformation against the western Latin Church too...

She would not and has not repented of her heresies...

And God will not be mocked...

Nor would he be mocked by the Russian Church...

To Whom He sent 80 years of atheist persecutions...

And the Russian Church repented...

Unlike Rome to date...


Arsenios

Really? You think the Russian church repented? [Staff Edit]

 

[Arsenios]

2 Peter 2:1
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you,
who will secretly bring in destructive heresies,
even denying the Master who bought them,
bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

You're confession??

I mean, you said it...

A.

 

[MennoSota]

You're confession??

I mean, you said it...

A.

Indeed, I confess your church is teaching heresy.