Tradition

[Arsenios]

Ah. So God calls all to be perfect. To be void of sin. To love all even as Christ loves. So, according to you, it is MANDATED that all can do that.... nothing from God needed, just His command. No mercy needed. No grace needed. No Cross needed. No resurrected needed. No Savior needed. Just God commanding and every unregenerate person DOING it. An entirely godless religion. If what you say is "logical" then Christ died in vain and He sent the Holy Spirit in vain - totally unnecessary. All self needs is self, fully able to do anything God calls on anyone to do.






Just a few things God has commanded:

Matthew 5:48, "You must be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."

1 Peter 1:16, "You must be holy even as God in heaven is holy."

John 15:12, "Love all people just as I (Jesus) loved."

Ephesians 4:32, "forgiving one another, just as God in Christ first forgave you."

First John 2:6, "Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did."

Philippians 2:5, "You must have the same attitude that Christ did."


Here's what God says about people doing it and being able to do it:


Genesis 8:21, "Every inclination of man's heart is evil from childhood."

Romans 5:12, "Sin entered the world through one man's sin, and death through sin, and therefore death came to all men for all have sinned."

First John 3:4, "Sin is lawlessness"

Romans 3:12, "There is no one who does good, not even one."

Mark 10:18, "There is none who is good but God exclusively."

First John 1:10, "If we claim we have no sin, we make God a liar and His word is not in us."

What a nightmare you describe!

God commanding us to turn away from sin...

Knowing we cannot ever do so even at all...

And we direct ourselves into eternal torment!

No wonder you are freaking out!

My Brother, I would be freaking out too...

But here is the good news...

Repentance is possible for all, and begins the living of the Gospel of Christ...

Perfecting is the completion of that Journey into Christ that never ends...

Sinlessness is kind of the half-way house of Perfecting...

Maturity in Christ is NOT the belief that one can never stop sinning...

But we can struggle against sin...

And IF we do so, God will complete what we ask Him to complete...

When we are Called by God, we CAN turn ourself against our sin...

THAT is repentance, you see, even if and especially when we FAIL in that effort...

And we get back up, bloody and bruised, and turn against our sin again...

And try again, and call on the Name of the Lord...

You seem to be confusing repentance with sinlessness...

Finishing with one's sins is just a stage in Life in Christ...

We still have Christ to ascend into...

MANY are CALLED, remember?
Yet FEW are CHOSEN...

Yet those few carry the rest of us from generation to generation...
Those are the few who throw ALL away for the sake of Christ...
MOST of us slobs, like me, are not willing to do so...
But it ain't over yet!


Arsenios

 

[Josiah]

What a nightmare you describe!

How you simply ignore every verse I gave.

God commanding us to turn away from sin...

Knowing we cannot ever do so even at all...

Which is why God has mercy and grace.... why God is forgiving.... why God sends us the Savior and the Holy Spirit.... Why the Gospel exists.

See Galatians 2:21.

Maturity in Christ is NOT the belief that one can never stop sinning...

Don't change the subject. You are insisting that those NOT in Christ can repent and stop sinning.

When we are Called by God, we CAN turn ourself against our sin...

When you make up your mind, let us know....

Can you give a verse that says that?

See Galatians 2:21



You claim all can do all that God commands. God commands that we be perfect as He is, holy as He is, as loving as He is. You claim those without spiritual life, without the Holy Spirit, without faith, with NOTHING WHATSOEVER from God (just a legalistic command) ALL can do that. Okay. List just 5 non-Christians who do. Out of 7.5 billion (well, out of 5 billion non-christians) list just 5 who have done that. 5 who have no faith in Christ, no Holy Spirit, no grace or mercy, nothing from God, who have done what you insist ALL can do. If all CAN do it (entirely irrespective of faith or the Holy Spirit or God) surely at least 5 must have done it. And consider God might be correct here: John 6:65 Ephesians 2:8-9 1 Corinthians 12:3 1 Corinthians 2:14 Ephesians 2:1 Romans 8:7 Maybe God is right in what He so often and clearly said.




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[Arsenios]

You claim all can do all that God commands.

I do not...

I claim that when God CALLS someone to DO something, then that person CAN do what God CALLS him to do...

Fer'instance! Not all can walk on water...

Not that God commands ALL to walk on water...

Unless it is frozen, mind you...

Nice straw-man attempt though...

Discipleship is progressive...

A person who is just beginning to turn from his or her sin(s) is not yet perfected in Christ...

Salvational maturity normally comes in stages...

The latter built on the foundation of the former...

First breast milk...

Then bottle milk...

Then smooshed veggies...

Ultimately meat...

Meat requires the Holy Spirit filling us...

Joh 16:12
I have yet many things to say unto you,
but ye cannot bear them now.

That will come later, IF that one is WILLING...

Ya gotta think IF, IF, IF, my Brother...

The PATH of Salvation is a big IF...

And God is not an IF...

But YOU are!


Arsenios

 

[Josiah]

You claim all can do all that God commands. Well, God commands that all be perfect as He is, holy as He is, as loving as He is. You claim those without spiritual life, without the Holy Spirit, without faith, with NOTHING WHATSOEVER from God (just a legalistic command and nothing else) ALL can do that. Okay. List just 5 non-Christians who do. Out of 7.5 billion (well, out of 5 billion non-Christians) list just 5 who have done that. 5 who have no faith in Christ, no Holy Spirit, no grace or mercy, nothing from God, who have done what you insist ALL can do. If all CAN do it (entirely irrespective of faith or the Holy Spirit or God) surely at least 5 must have done it. And consider God might be correct here: John 6:65 Ephesians 2:8-9 1 Corinthians 12:3 1 Corinthians 2:14 Ephesians 2:1 Romans 8:7 Maybe God is right in what He so often and clearly said. See also Galatians 2:21

I do not... I claim that when God CALLS someone to DO something, then that person CAN do what God CALLS him to do...

When you make up your mind, let us know.


Until then, I stand with Scripture.

 

[Arsenios]

Don't change the subject.
You are insisting that those NOT in Christ
can repent and stop sinning.
.

They CAN turn from sin -
Their success will vary according to the person...

Repentance is turning from sin...
Repentance is NOT total success in the effort...

Do you not know this, Josiah?

You will have success and failure...

The Faith is a STRUGGLE...

No struggle = breast feeding into old age...

Which won't take long to arrive!


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

When you make up your mind, let us know.


Until then, I stand with Scripture.

Did you make up your mind to turn from sin?


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

When you make up your mind, let us know.
Until then, I stand with Scripture.

I claim that when God calls YOU to repentance,
THEN...
YOU can begin repenting...

You seem to be denying that you can...
That you need the Holy Spirit to help God out...
The Holy CALL of God to repentance is not enough for you to obey it...

You are childishly demanding that repentance be immediate and total...
THAT is what God Gives in Baptism...
The completion of repentance from sin...
The Cleansing Waters of Regeneration...

That is, or should be at least, only given to those repenting from their sins...


Arsenios

 

[Josiah]

You claim all can do all that God commands.

.

I do not... I claim that when God CALLS someone to DO something, then that person CAN do what God CALLS him to do...

.

When you make up your mind, let us know.


.

They CAN turn from sin -

Ah, you made up your mind.



1. What Scripture states that?


2. Again, a totally godless, Crossless, merciless religion.... with only Law and a passive (but demanding god) and self saving self by the performance of a good work. Everything hinging on the unregenerate, unsaved person VOID entirely of God, of the Holy Spirit, of faith.... doing/willing something that you've been unable to find even one verse says such does. Without the unregenerate performing this good work in direct obedience to a Call, nothing happens - so it all hinges (everything) on the ability and will of one WITHOUT God doing something.


3. Read these.... Believe them....

Ezekiel 36:26-27

John 6:65

Ephesians 2:8-9

1 Corinthians 12:3

1 Corinthians 2:14

Ephesians 2:1

Romans 8:7

Galatians 2:21

you are arguing that the CALL of God TO REPENTANCE is INEFFICACIOUS for man's repentance...
Because the Call of God is not enough - He still needs the Holy Spirit...

And you ridicule this and call his a nightmare, you argue that the legalistic Call of God is sufficient, nothing from God is needed for the proper response. No need for the Holy Spirit to do a thing.

In your theology, EVERYTHING hinges on a adequate good work done by the unregenerate with NOTHING from God (just a legal command). Your whole theology is grounded not in God (at all) but in self, self all-alone, according to his own ability and will, performing a good work in obedience purely to the Law. Now, that's a nightmare. And if that IS the Tradition of the Eastern Orthodox Church on this, I'm horrified.




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[Arsenios]

Ah, you made up your mind.



1. What Scripture states that?


2. Again, a totally godless, Crossless, merciless religion.... with only Law and a passive (but demanding god) and self saving self by the performance of a good work. Everything hinging on the unregenerate, unsaved person VOID entirely of God, of the Holy Spirit, of faith.... doing/willing something that you've been unable to find even one verse says such does. Without the unregenerate performing this good work in direct obedience to a Call, nothing happens - so it all hinges (everything) on the ability and will of one WITHOUT God doing something.


3. Read these.... Believe them....

Ezekiel 36:26-27

John 6:65

Ephesians 2:8-9

1 Corinthians 12:3

1 Corinthians 2:14

Ephesians 2:1

Romans 8:7

Galatians 2:21







And you ridicule this and call his a nightmare, you argue that the legalistic Call of God is sufficient, nothing from God is needed for the proper response. No need for the Holy Spirit to do a thing.

In your theology, EVERYTHING hinges on a adequate good work done by the unregenerate with NOTHING from God (just a legal command). Your whole theology is grounded not in God (at all) but in self, self all-alone, according to his own ability and will, performing a good work in obedience purely to the Law. Now, that's a nightmare. And if that IS the Tradition of the Eastern Orthodox Church on this, I'm horrified.




.

Wow - Sorry to upset you...

We can let this go...

When God calls you to repentance...
THEN, my Brother...
You CAN repent...

The Call of God is a Holy Calling...

It is not mere legalism as you accuse...

Fallen man can repent from evil...

God does not command fallen man to do
That which he is unable to do...

Why do you accuse Him of doing so?


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

A
3. Read these.... Believe them....

Ezekiel 36:26-27

John 6:65

Ephesians 2:8-9

1 Corinthians 12:3

1 Corinthians 2:14

Ephesians 2:1

Romans 8:7

Galatians 2:21

.

Read the Bible...

Believe it...

Argue from Scripture and I will answer...

The rest is blather...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

In your theology, EVERYTHING hinges on a adequate good work done by the unregenerate with NOTHING from God (just a legal command). Your whole theology is grounded not in God (at all) but in self, self all-alone, according to his own ability and will, performing a good work in obedience purely to the Law. Now, that's a nightmare. And if that IS the Tradition of the Eastern Orthodox Church on this, I'm horrified.

Does God call the Righteous?
Or does He call SINNERS to repentance?

By your logic, a sinner CANNOT repent...
So God's Holy Call to Repentance is nil...

It is efficacious...
Because it is God Calling...


Arsenios

 

[Josiah]

Does God call the Righteous?
Or does He call SINNERS to repentance?

By your logic, a sinner CANNOT repent...
So God's Holy Call to Repentance is nil...

It is efficacious...
Because it is God Calling...


Arsenios

Okay, your tradition is: " EVERYTHING hinges on fallen man's response to God's Holy Call to Repentance - without God supplying anything except the legal demand"

So.... you claim everyone (all fallen, unregenerate people) has the will and ability to respond to whatever God calls on them to do. You have NOTHING from Scripture that remotely states this, but you claim it's "logical." And to suggest that God is needed here (in any way other than to issue a legal demand) is a "nightmare."


I find that tradition absolutely contrary to Scripture (I note how you have evaded all the many Scriptures I've shared.... while you've offered none to show how no one needs anything from God except a legal demand). And I find this concept of soteriology that is wholly, entirely dependent upon the fallen man's adquate performance of a good work to be the antithesis of Christianity, indeed worse than the heresy 0f Pelagianism.

by your logic, a sinner cannot repent, so that God's Holy Call to Repentance is nil.

I'm just repeating what God says.



Ezekiel 36:26-27

John 6:65

Ephesians 2:8-9

1 Corinthians 12:3

1 Corinthians 2:14

Ephesians 2:1

Romans 8:7

Galatians 2:21

... and hundreds more just like them.



Now, where is the verse that says, "if God commands something, the ones He is commanding ergo have the will and ability to fulfill it - all on their own, no God needed, no faith needed, no no Holy Spirit needed, no spiritual life needed."

Where is the verse that says, "All soteriology hinges on one point: Fallen man not needing God, just a legal demand which all have the full will and ability to fulfil."

It is efficacious because it is God Calling

... while being non-involved? ONLY Law, no Gospel? If God's Call always results in fallen man responding simply because it is God announcing the legal demand, then Jesus was a big waste of blood... and there is no need for mercy or grace or forgiveness or the Cross or the Savior or the Resurrection or the church . Just the Law. Just God saying DO and everyone doing it. See Galatians 2:21, etc.




.

 

[MennoSota]

We are CALLED to repentance...

You argue God calls us in vain...

And needs a little help from God...

Logic did you say??

fwiw, Not all Called come...

Either to repentance or to perfecting...

Not because they cannot...

But because they will not...


Arsenios

Indeed, all the elect are called to repentance and to daily die to one's self.
The unregenerate will not repent. They will fight to the end, against the yoke of Christ.
Therefore, God must first quicken the rebel into Christ so that the rebel will, by God's grace, repent.
Repentance does not save. Salvation brings repentance.

 

[MennoSota]

Does God call the Righteous?
Or does He call SINNERS to repentance?

By your logic, a sinner CANNOT repent...
So God's Holy Call to Repentance is nil...

It is efficacious...
Because it is God Calling...


Arsenios

God saves the sinner whom He then calls to repentance. If we are made children of the Most High God, we must then be sanctified into His likeness. This comes through repentance and trials.
Those who are in rebellion will never surrender until God saves them from themselves. Upon seeing what they were saved from, the redeemed person will repent.
The unredeemed will never repent.

 

[Arsenios]

God saves the sinner whom He then calls to repentance. If we are made children of the Most High God, we must then be sanctified into His likeness. This comes through repentance and trials.
Those who are in rebellion will never surrender until God saves them from themselves. Upon seeing what they were saved from, the redeemed person will repent.
The unredeemed will never repent.

Does God Call the Saved to Repentance?

Or does He call sinners to repentance?


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

God saves the sinner whom He then calls to repentance. If we are made children of the Most High God, we must then be sanctified into His likeness. This comes through repentance and trials.
Those who are in rebellion will never surrender until God saves them from themselves. Upon seeing what they were saved from, the redeemed person will repent.
The unredeemed will never repent.

Nice Avatar, Menno...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Okay, your tradition is: " EVERYTHING hinges on fallen man's response to God's Holy Call to Repentance - without God supplying anything except the legal demand"

So.... you claim everyone (all fallen, unregenerate people) has the will and ability to respond to whatever God calls on them to do. You have NOTHING from Scripture that remotely states this, but you claim it's "logical." And to suggest that God is needed here (in any way other than to issue a legal demand) is a "nightmare."

Have you considered a career in scare-crow manufacturing?

I mean, you are a straw-man artistadoro...

If God calls YOU to REPENTANCE...
The YOU CAN REPENT...

The rest is fluff...

I find that tradition absolutely contrary to Scripture

Any crow would too, including me...

Man oh man am I glad I didn't put forth anything like that at all!

Phew! That was scare-crow-ish!

(I note how you have evaded all the many Scriptures I've shared....

You have evaded reading the WHOLE Bible I shared with you...

while you've offered none to show how no one needs anything from God except a legal demand).

Gosh, I shared the whole BIBLE with YOU, Boo Boo...

And I find this concept of soteriology that is wholly, entirely dependent upon the fallen man's adquate performance of a good work to be the antithesis of Christianity, indeed worse than the heresy 0f Pelagianism.

I am not surprised that fallen man turning to God in repentance from sin is anathema to you...

Where is the verse that says, "All soteriology hinges on one point: Fallen man not needing God, just a legal demand which all have the full will and ability to fulfill."

Straw man maker extraordinaire, I say!!

If God's Call always results in fallen man responding simply because it is God announcing the legal demand,

Straw man maker extraordinaire, I say!!

then Jesus was a big waste of blood...

Your words, not mine...

and there is no need for mercy or grace or forgiveness or the Cross or the Savior or the Resurrection or the church .

Right - God saves us first, then we have all the goodies that follow...

Just the Law. Just God saying DO and everyone doing it. See Galatians 2:21, etc.

Does God CALL sinners to repentance?
OR...
Does He NOT CALL sinners to repentance?

Are the sinners He CALLS already saved?
OR...
Are they unsaved sinners when CALLED?


Arsenios

 

[Josiah]

If God calls YOU to REPENTANCE...
The YOU CAN REPENT...

Where does Scripture state that?

Where is your evidence that if God calls the fallen, unregerate person VOID of the Holy Spirit, spiritual life and faith ERGO they have the will and full ability to respond (no need for ANYTHING from God except for a legal command)?

I agree with what God clearly says:



Ezekiel 36:26-27

John 6:65

Ephesians 2:8-9

1 Corinthians 12:3

1 Corinthians 2:14

Ephesians 2:1

Romans 8:7

Galatians 2:21

... and many more just like them.

You have evaded reading the WHOLE Bible I shared with you...

You didn't quote a single verse, much the whole Bible. Quote where it says that if God command something ERGO the fallen, unregenerate, unbelieving person has the will and means to respond - no need for God or the Holy Spirit or Christ or the Cross or grace or mercy or anything: just God's legal demand.

I am not surprised that fallen man turning to God in repentance from sin is anathema to you...

Quote me where I stated it is "anathema".

Does God CALL sinners to repentance? OR...Does He NOT CALL sinners to repentance?

That's not the issue. The issue is your claim, so far without even one verse to remotely so indicate, that fallen unregenerate man - void of anything from God, from the Holy Spirit, from faith - is willing and able to fully comply SIMPLY because God issues a call. The legal call is all that is need, only the Law. No God, no Christ, no Cross, no grace, no mercy, no Holy Spirit, no faith.

The issue is your claim that everything hinges on the unbelieving, fallen, unregenerate person - void of faith and the Holy Spirit - adequately performing a good work which God thus rewards.

If what you are proclaiming is the Tradition of the EOC, then I find that to be a nightmare, a contradiction of the central point of Christianity: Jesus is the Savior, we are saved by grace through faith.

 

[MennoSota]

Does God Call the Saved to Repentance?

Or does He call sinners to repentance?


Arsenios

We who are saved are still sinners. We are former rebels whom God calls to daily repentance.
God drags sinners, kicking and screaming against their will, to the cross so that they might see the Savior and be set free. Upon being set free, the person immediately repents out of shear love for the Savior.
Repentance is not an act of fear with the hope that God doesn't kill us. Repentance is a response of love and gratitude to a God who has chosen to spare us despite our pathetic selves.

 

[Arsenios]

We who are saved are still sinners. We are former rebels whom God calls to daily repentance.

That's a start...

May I offer to you the fact that sin is an act of rebellion against God?

So that perhaps you might want to remove the word former from "former rebels" because we are still rebelling with every sin?

God drags sinners, kicking and screaming against their will, to the cross so that they might see the Savior and be set free.
Upon being set free, the person immediately repents out of shear love for the Savior.

So in terms of sin, the saved are still sinners and shall ever be until death?

Repentance is not an act of fear with the hope that God doesn't kill us.

Does not Scripture affirm that "FEAR of God is the BEGINNING of Wisdom?"

I know we post-moderns like to tone it down to mean "awe for God"...

Yet fear of eternal consequences for their sins converts many - [It never converted me, mind you... But I am not typical...]

Yet Scripture tells us this fear is a start...

Which leads to your next point...

Repentance is a response of love and gratitude to a God who has chosen to spare us despite our pathetic selves.

I would add, not only to spare us, but to Give us Life, and invite us to the Wedding of the Marriage of the Lamb...

The Life of Christ in this fallen life we live under the rule of death on this earth here and now...

But do we not have to affirm Biblically that both Fear and Love are affirmed by the Bible?

That fear of eternal death is the beginning [of scorn for temporal death] which leads to the Love of God and neighbor?

That IF we are still sinning AFTER being Saved, we are still immature in Christ, yes?

That maturing in Christ is the overcoming of sin(s)?


Arsenios