The Big Extraction

[Odë:hgöd]

.
The so-called rapture terminates the church age with an impossible-to-ignore wake
up call. Assuming it's true; I've no doubt the world over will be awestruck and very
badly shaken by the number of dead folks coming back to life seemingly out of thin
air. We're talking about nigh unto 2,000 years of Christians from every era since
the days of Christ. That's a significant number.

● 1Thess 4:16a . . For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud
command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God

The only archangel named in the New Testament is Michael (Jude 9) However,
according to Daniel 10:13 there's more than one archangel so I think it would be a
mistake to insist the archangel's voice in 1Thess 4:16 is Michael's.

The trumpet call of God is possibly relative to Rev 1:10-18. (cf. 1Cor 15:52)

● 1Thess 4:16b . . and the dead in Christ shall rise first.

* That incident is sometimes omitted from dramatized versions of the event.

"in Christ" is limited to folks who've undergone the Spirit's supernatural initiation
rite per 1Cor 12:13 and Eph 1:13.

● 1Thess 4:17 . . .Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together
with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air,

That scene would be easier to picture were the Earth flat, but it's a huge sphere. So
when those folks are taken up into the sky, I suspect they will form a sort of human
Oort Cloud all 'round the world at first.

Their exact rendezvous location with the Lord is a bit of a mystery. It's been
suggested they'll actually pass up thru the clouds and their assembly with the Lord
"in the air" will take place above them.

FAQ: What if there are no clouds in some areas?

REPLY: I think we can expect adequate high altitude weather conditions for that
one special day; it is after all a miraculous event.

* Folks left behind will very likely find themselves in immediate danger as wide
spread chaos, confusion, fear, and calamity are happy hunting grounds for
insurrection, looters, vandalism, hoarders, financial panic, and violent riots.
_

 

[Lamb]

When Jesus returns again it will be Judgment day.

 

[Odë:hgöd]

.

When Jesus returns again it will be Judgment day.

Although the event depicted by 1Thess 4:14-18 can be counted as a coming, I
really don't think it can be counted as a return because Jesus won't be touching
down on the ground, rather, will remain up in the clouds just long enough to
rendezvous with his living and deceased followers and then right back up to Heaven.
_

 

[Messy]

I had found a pretrib argument once, that I thought was good. Michael Brown, who I think is a great preacher on other stuff, believes post trib, because he thinks it's nasty to leave as a mainly gentile church and then leave the Jews alone in the 7 year trib. He had as one point that it said in Revelation 20 this is the first resurrection and it's at the end. So I looked that up. It says in Rev. 19:
14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in [f]fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.

(Rev 3:5
5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments)

Rev 20:
And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for [a]a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

So at the first resurrection only the ones who got killed in the trib get resurrected. Then when did the other ones get resurrected, like Abraham and all the saints following Him? He is not gonna leave them in heaven for another 1000 years while He reigns on earth.

 

[Albion]

Bear in mind that the book (Revelation) is a vision, not something whose details are meant to be taken literally, nor does John himself present it to the reader as something meant to be believed word for word.

 

[Odë:hgöd]

.
People better educated than I, and brighter (e.g. J.Dwight Pentecost) have figured
out that the first resurrection isn't a singular event, rather; it unfolds in stages.
_

 

[Messy]

Bear in mind that the book (Revelation) is a vision, not something whose details are meant to be taken literally, nor does John himself present it to the reader as something meant to be believed word for word.

Ehm he does. You can't take away one word from it.

 

[Lamb]

.


Although the event depicted by 1Thess 4:14-18 can be counted as a coming, I
really don't think it can be counted as a return because Jesus won't be touching
down on the ground, rather, will remain up in the clouds just long enough to
rendezvous with his living and deceased followers and then right back up to Heaven.
_

The "rapture" as you described it like the Left Behind series is a modern invention.

 

[Albion]

Ehm he does. You can't take away one word from it.

Right. It's a vision. And that doesn't mean it's false or mythical or merely symbolic of something or other, but its contents are certainly not meant to be taken literally.

John himself starts the book off my pointing out that it's what he saw. Get it? It's a vision, and how we and he interpret the events and figures he saw is different from the Gospels, for example, or other Bible books.

 

[Messy]

The "rapture" as you described it like the Left Behind series is a modern invention.

A guy from cf who has his own forum, said that it's way older:

Hermas tells us that he passed by a wild beast and met a virgin who saluted him saying, Hail O man.! He returned the greeting... Lady, hail! Then she asked... Has nothing crossed your path? Hermas replied... I was met by a beast of such a size that it could destroy peoples, but through the power of the Lord and His great mercy, I escaped from it... The virgin said... Well, did you escape from it, because you cast your care on God, and opened your heart to the Lord, believing that you can be saved by no other than His great and glorious name? You have escaped from great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast. God therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be free and spotless in serving the Lord blamelessly."

Hermas, The Shepherd of Hermas,

Book I, fourth, ch. ii, also ch. iii)

This shows that the teaching was definitely in the early church of a pre-trib rapture, and that the teaching of the pre-trib rapture was not added in 1830, but to a restoration of the doctrine that had been lost when the church apostatized in the dark ages.

308. IS THE RAPTURE AN ADDED DOCTRINE OF THE 1830'S???

308. IS IT TRUE THAT THE ‘RAPTURE’ OF THE CHURCH IS AN ADDED DOCTRINE, AND NEVER MENTIONED UNTIL THE 1830'S??? Some falsely claim that ‘if we would search we will find no history of the teaching in the early church record. It did not exist until the 1830's." These skeptics...

www.armyofprophets.com

Why would we be constantly exhorted to watch, if we could date the Antichrist’s coming, note esp. the date of the abomination of desolation, for if we were here, and knew that date, we have revealed in Scripture to the day, how many days after that is the second coming, and we would know the day of His return.

 

[Origen]

A guy from cf who has his own forum, said that it's way older:

Hermas tells us that he passed by a wild beast and met a virgin who saluted him saying, Hail O man.! He returned the greeting... Lady, hail! Then she asked... Has nothing crossed your path? Hermas replied... I was met by a beast of such a size that it could destroy peoples, but through the power of the Lord and His great mercy, I escaped from it... The virgin said... Well, did you escape from it, because you cast your care on God, and opened your heart to the Lord, believing that you can be saved by no other than His great and glorious name? You have escaped from great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast. God therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be free and spotless in serving the Lord blamelessly."

Hermas, The Shepherd of Hermas,

Book I, fourth, ch. ii, also ch. iii)

This shows that the teaching was definitely in the early church of a pre-trib rapture, and that the teaching of the pre-trib rapture was not added in 1830, but to a restoration of the doctrine that had been lost when the church apostatized in the dark ages.

308. IS THE RAPTURE AN ADDED DOCTRINE OF THE 1830'S???

308. IS IT TRUE THAT THE ‘RAPTURE’ OF THE CHURCH IS AN ADDED DOCTRINE, AND NEVER MENTIONED UNTIL THE 1830'S??? Some falsely claim that ‘if we would search we will find no history of the teaching in the early church record. It did not exist until the 1830's." These skeptics...

www.armyofprophets.com

Why would we be constantly exhorted to watch, if we could date the Antichrist’s coming, note esp. the date of the abomination of desolation, for if we were here, and knew that date, we have revealed in Scripture to the day, how many days after that is the second coming, and we would know the day of His return.

I would say that is just an example of reading into a text rather than allowing the text to define what it means. Note there is no mention of a "rapture" any where in Hermes.

The person who wrote that assumes that the "escape" mentioned (i.e. "If ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be free and spotless in serving the Lord blamelessly.") is the rapture. However the text never states this.

Hermes' makes it clear it is by endurance the faithful escape.

Shepard 14:7
"You, therefore, who work righteousness must be steadfast, and do not be double-minded, in order that you may gain entrance with the holy angels. Blessed are those of you who patiently endure the coming great tribulation and who will not deny their life."

Shepard 24:1
"You who have escaped from this world are the gold part, for just as gold is tested by fire and made useful, so also you who live in them are being tested. Therefore those who endure and pass through the flames will be purified by them. For just as gold casts off its dross, so also you will cast away all grief and distress, and will be purified and useful for the building of the tower."

By the way I am using as updated translation of the text: The Shepherd of Hermas: A Commentary (Hermeneia).

 

[Messy]

I would say that is just an example of reading into a text rather than allowing the text to define what it means. Note there is no mention of a "rapture" any where in Hermes.

The person who wrote that assumes that the "escape" mentioned (i.e. "If ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be free and spotless in serving the Lord blamelessly.") is the rapture. However the text never states this.

Hermes' makes it clear that is by endurance the faithful escape.

Shepard 14:7
"You, therefore, who work righteousness must be steadfast, and do not be double-minded, in order that you may gain entrance with the holy angels. Blessed are those of you who patiently endure the coming great tribulation and who will not deny their life."

Shepard 24:1
"You who have escaped from this world are the gold part, for just as gold is tested by fire and made useful, so also you who live in them are being tested. Therefore those who endure and pass through the flames will be purified by them. For just as gold casts off its dross, so also you will cast away all grief and distress, and will be purified and useful for the building of the tower."

By the way I am using as updated translation of the text: The Shepherd of Hermas: A Commentary (Hermeneia).

It reminded me of Revelation 3
10 Because you have kept [g]My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 11 [h]Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.

And if the antichrist sits in the temple, you can simply count the days from Daniel until Jesus returns and you know when He comes, so the other text, watch because you don't know when He comes, can't be about that.

Luke 21
36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may [a]be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Matthew 24 But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of [f]heaven, but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what [g]hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what [h]hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.


And the ac gets revealed when the one who resists is taken away. This was in Ken Peter's dream from the 80s. He recently died btw. He saw that the ac came and there was no resistance whatsoever.

2 Thessalonians 2

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of [a]sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits [b]as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the [c]mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only [d]He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

Apostasia can be translated as falling away or departure.

Matthew 26 virgins
But while the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept.

How can they sleep during the tribulation, when all christians are persecuted and get killed?


37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

You can't even get groceries without the mark of the beast.

 

[Odë:hgöd]

.
I am so looking forward to that rendezvous depicted by 1Thess 4:13-18 as cancer,
combined with chemo and radiation, has emaciated me to the point where I
resemble the half-dead Jews liberated from Dachau and Auschwitz.

I expect the event will be very noisy as thousands of voices fill the air with a
deafening roar of laughter and cheers because those of us who lived our lives out to
old age, enduring time's wasting process, along with injuries and diseases, will of a
sudden find ourselves young and strong again.
_

 

[Odë:hgöd]

.
Actually, I don't mind the cancer and its related treatments near as much as I
dislike what it's doing to my morale. This disease requires a level of courage and
calm that I didn't expect. For the first time in my 79 years, I'm experiencing
despondence; and quite frankly I'm not a little worried I might undergo a nervous
breakdown because of it.
_

 

[tango]

Right. It's a vision. And that doesn't mean it's false or mythical or merely symbolic of something or other, but its contents are certainly not meant to be taken literally.

John himself starts the book off my pointing out that it's what he saw. Get it? It's a vision, and how we and he interpret the events and figures he saw is different from the Gospels, for example, or other Bible books.

Yep, visions are symbolic.

I can only imagine how someone from John's time would describe a vision of something we would instantly recognise in this day and age.

How would someone with absolutely no clue what current technology looks like describe a cellphone, a helicopter, a rifle, a central heating system, a printer etc?

You or I, given a vision today, might write "I saw a printer spewing out endless pages". Someone 2000 years ago, given the exact same vision, would probably talk of a box surrounded by cords making a noise like chariots.

 

[Messy]

.
Actually, I don't mind the cancer and its related treatments near as much as I
dislike what it's doing to my morale. This disease requires a level of courage and
calm that I didn't expect. For the first time in my 79 years, I'm experiencing
despondence; and quite frankly I'm not a little worried I might undergo a nervous
breakdown because of it.
_

That's horrible. I added you to my prayer list. Do you have music with Bible texts about healing or Gospel music to cheer you up?

 

[Prepared]

.
The so-called rapture terminates the church age with an impossible-to-ignore wake
up call. Assuming it's true; I've no doubt the world over will be awestruck and very
badly shaken by the number of dead folks coming back to life seemingly out of thin
air. We're talking about nigh unto 2,000 years of Christians from every era since
the days of Christ. That's a significant number.

● 1Thess 4:16a . . For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud
command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God

The only archangel named in the New Testament is Michael (Jude 9) However,
according to Daniel 10:13 there's more than one archangel so I think it would be a
mistake to insist the archangel's voice in 1Thess 4:16 is Michael's.

The trumpet call of God is possibly relative to Rev 1:10-18. (cf. 1Cor 15:52)

● 1Thess 4:16b . . and the dead in Christ shall rise first.

* That incident is sometimes omitted from dramatized versions of the event.

"in Christ" is limited to folks who've undergone the Spirit's supernatural initiation
rite per 1Cor 12:13 and Eph 1:13.

● 1Thess 4:17 . . .Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together
with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air,

That scene would be easier to picture were the Earth flat, but it's a huge sphere. So
when those folks are taken up into the sky, I suspect they will form a sort of human
Oort Cloud all 'round the world at first.

Their exact rendezvous location with the Lord is a bit of a mystery. It's been
suggested they'll actually pass up thru the clouds and their assembly with the Lord
"in the air" will take place above them.

FAQ: What if there are no clouds in some areas?

REPLY: I think we can expect adequate high altitude weather conditions for that
one special day; it is after all a miraculous event.

* Folks left behind will very likely find themselves in immediate danger as wide
spread chaos, confusion, fear, and calamity are happy hunting grounds for
insurrection, looters, vandalism, hoarders, financial panic, and violent riots.

The question is whether the human body will be taken OR just the spirit in the body AND considering that we will have new bodies on the new heaven and the Earth why take these old bodies. So in my opinion there will be NO bodies going up, only the spirits within these bodies and spirits are invisible.

What will be visible is when the Lord comes back from the clouds in the sky with his angels following him and the whole world will see him as written in the Book of Revelation. *Up until the invention of the television, especially the internet - the whole world seeing Christ and his angels hovering in the sky was impossible.

What if there is no clouds in the area you stated _ it doesn't matter - it is an example of what is to occur - clouds is up in the sky and used as a reference to spirits ascending up..

People have a tendency to think that there may be chaos on Earth afterwards - that is a possibility............ But I seriously doubt it - the Antichrist will have full control over the Earth the people of the Earth are going to wage war against Christ............. And according to scripture 200 million from the East is going to match against Jesus when they see him coming - and I'm quite sure all the other nations will gather together to do battle - odds are they will be thinking ALIEN INVASION - the world has been prepped and been prepping for such an event since the 1940s. Scripture says that this Earth and this heaven is going to go out be destroyed with ferment

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that | King James Version (KJV) | Downloa

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that

www.bible.com

23 Bible verses about The Universe Destroyed

So there just might not be time for looting, chaos and all of that - people will be running for their lives and trying to hide, as also written in Scripture.

_

 

[Odë:hgöd]

.
● 1Thess 4:17 . .Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together
with them in the clouds, to meet The Lord in the air:

I have a problem with heights.
_

 

[Albion]

.
The only archangel named in the New Testament is Michael (Jude 9) However,
according to Daniel 10:13 there's more than one archangel so I think it would be a mistake to insist the archangel's voice in 1Thess 4:16 is Michael's.

Gabriel is also recognized as an archangel. While both angels and archangels serve God as messengers, archangels are believed to be the ones sent on the missions of highest importance. There is no doubting that revealing to Mary that she would give birth to the Son of God falls into that category.

And of course there is also Raphael, but that reference is from the Old Testament.

 

[Messy]

-