The Apocrypha: Separating Myth from Fact

Andrew

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I'm beginning this as a draft because I do want to add my summery and conclusion after a thorough review, I'm halfway through the second video and this research seems rather promising, may have to think twice before rejecting the 'so named' "Apocrypha"... btw there is a quick review of the first video around 56:00 minutes in that last about 5 minutes.
https://youtu.be/FLayGleW50E
https://youtu.be/CA_jP3PAZQY
 

psalms 91

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I have found it to be a good addition in many cases, some is fantasy but some adds historical content
 

Josiah

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Right now, I don't have an hour to review even the first one.... but I will!

Question: Are you David?


Some issues:


1. These are often called DEUTEROcanonical. The name itself implies something secondary.


2. There has NEVER been an ecumenical consensus on which books are "Deutero" and what role they have (inspirational? canonical/normative?). The OOC has a LOT of them - with no consensus about them. The EOC has an UNOFFICIAL embrace of a certain number but the status of them is still never determined. The RCC now has yet another number and there status wasn't made formal until a bit after Luther's death. Yes.... the post Trent books are usually found in the others, but I'm not sure that means there is a universal embrace of even them. The "Catholic" books are UNIQUE to just that singular, individual denomination - and that only since the 16th Century (officially). You'll made a huge mistake if you speak of these books as if there is some singualr "set" of them.


3. Lutherans have never officially ruled on this (it's regarded a matter for the whole church, not just the Lutherans). On purpose, the Book of Concord does not list what is and is not a canonical book. In his own German translation, Luther INCLUDED the deutero books usually used IN GERMANY at the time (which is one MORE than in the unique modern, post-Trent RCC tome) - although Luther shares his PERSONAL, INDIVIDUAL opinion that this typical GERMAN set of deutro books were not normative but rather simply informative and inspirational (a view the Anglicans would later officially embrace) but this was never made an officially Lutheran view. Lutherans continued to use Luther's translation (often translated from German) well into the 20th century - and the 16th Century GERMAN "set" became unofficially deutero books (Luther's had one MORE book in it than the post-Trent, modern, unique RCC Bible). Lutherans often still include readings from the German set in the lectionary. And the LCMS has one of the most popular studies of these books (which my parish recently did again).


4. There were some in the early church that quoted from books not in the standard OT. But note some points: A) QUOTING from a book doesn't mean the book was regarded as Scripture.... if your pastor quotes from the NY Times in a sermon, does that mean ERGO your denomination officially regards the NT Times as divinely inspired, inerrant, canonical Scripture? B) People will note "this APPEARS to be a quote because it is similar to a sentence we find in some other book." That's absurd. Unless one says, "GOD says...." or "Scripture says...." or similar, then there's no way to know if he is actually quoting something (there was no such thing as quotation marks in either Hebrew or Greek) MUCH LESS than he regards such as normative SCRIPTURE. Just because two sentences are similar doesn't make one the quote of the other or that ergo one is officially regarded as inerrant, divine, normative/canonical SCRIPTURE. It's an absurd point too often made.


5. The books accepted universally and officially as CANONICAL (a divine rule) didn't happen immediately. The Jews settled this in 90AD but never have Christians done this; there has been no Ecumenical Council on this. A FEW denominations have done this (recently) but only for it itself alone (the RCC, Calvinist and Anglicans all in the mid to late 16th Century; the LDS in the late 19th Century for example). It's just never been much of an issue. Why? Because nothing of consequence was found in these "hidden" or "extra" or DEUTERO books.... East and West NEVER agreed on them but it just was never an issue. The "66" book set is simply historical, ecumenical CONSENSUS. We have maybe up to 100 books around which universal consensus doesn't exist and no one seems to care too much about. Here's the bottom line: NO ONE EVEN NOW "knows" what is and is not Scripture. It's never been determined. We have a solid, universal consensus around 66 - and have for some 1700 years (not always to the exact same extent). We have maybe 100 more that are often regarded as DEUTERO, the status and number of which is still without consensus.


6. You should not ignore there has been a NT "Deutero" issue, too. THE most used NT Deutero book was the Book of Leodicea which existed in most RCC Bibles for over 1000 years (it was in all German Bibles in Luther's day - it is the "book Luther deleted from the New Testament"). Catholics love to talk about "deleting Books" but the most classic case of this is the RCC..... it deleted OT books that the East accepted and one NT book that it unofficially included for over 1000 years (many Catholic tomes inclued the Epistle to the Leodiceans for over a century AFTER Trent did not mention it).



I'll listen to the two videos when time permits.... and I'll be watching for the above 6 things (and much more)....




- Josiah
 
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Josiah

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This may be interesting...



c. 100 BC - A.D. 100 The community who copied the Dead Sea Scrolls never referred to any Deutero book as Scripture or God Say as they did with other canon books.

c. A.D. 30 Jesus never quoted from any Deutero book.

A.D. 40 Philo, Jewish philosopher, refers to all but 5 O.T. books and never quotes from the Apocrypha.

c. A.D. 40 - 90 The New Testament writers do not quote from any Deutero book.

A.D. 90 The Council of Jamnia drew up a list of canonical books for Judaism; no Deutero book is accepted.

A.D. 80 - 100 Josephus, Jewish Historian, never mentions any Deutero book or quotes from any.

A.D. 170 The first verifiable canon listing from the Church Fathers was found in the writings of Melito of Sardis; no Deutero book is mentioned.

A.D. 320 Another listing by Athanasius lists canon books, but no Deutero book is mentioned.

A.D. 382 - 405 Jerome, who translated the Bible into Latin, opposed the Apocrypha as Scripture and as canon, though he translated it.

c. A.D. 350 Rufinius lists the Canon books, no Deutero book is among them.

c. A.D. 350 Cyril of Jerusalem rejected all the Deutero books.

c. A.D. 343-381 Regional ouncil of Laodicea rejects most of the Apocrypha except Baruch.

A.D. 393 Regional Synod of Hippo, influenced by Augustine, is the first listing of some of the Deutero books as Scripture and approved at the regional Council of Carthage (397).

A.D. 590 Gregory the Great, Pope of Rome, in his writings denies Maccabees as canonical but still says it is useful according to Roman Catholic patristics scholar, William Jurgens.

A.D. 1445 The RCC Council of Florence declares some of the Deutero books as Scripture.

c. early A.D. 1500 Catholic Cardinal Cajetan (who opposed Luther) points out that there are two levels of inspiration, and the Apocrypha, Judith, Tobit, books of Maccabees, Wisdom, and Ecclesiasticus were the lesser of inspiration and seen as non-canon books.

A.D. 1520 Polyglot Bible of Cardinal Ximenes (approved by Pope Leo X) published. No Deutero books are included.

A.D. 1546 The Roman Catholic Council of Trent finalized the Roman Church additions of the Apocrypha as full canon - for that denomination, a given set is accepted and made fully normative.


Luther's translation includes the usual 16th Century German set of Deutero books (one more than Trent accepted) but Luther shares his personal opinion that the DEUTERO books are not on the same level as the others.

The Anglican Church embraces even more books that Luther (and several more than the RCC) but officially dogmatizes Luther's view that the Deutero books are deutero - not fully canonical (Lutherans do not follow suit)

Calvinists declare that only 66 books are to be accepted and for them, the DEUTERO books are not included in their tomes or lectionary (Anglicans and Lutherans do not follow suit... American Baptists, heavily influence by Calvin, follow suit). I

n the USA (where the King James Bible dominates for all but Catholics and Lutherans), two versons are published: One with the Anglican "set" of Deutro books (used by Episcopalians and often Methodist) and one without (generally used by non-Episcopal and non-Lutheran American protestants). Many Americans .... opening up their particular edition of the KJV.... find certain books IN that tome and some missing... and make conclusions. A situation quite unique to the USA.


I'll get to your videos when time permits....



.
 
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Andrew

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lol no I'm not David, the video was uploaded by an apologetic researcher Nathan Hoffman (no relation), David is the author of this particular research, Nathan I believe is a student of his.
I just meant that this thread was a draft because I'm at work right now
 

Andrew

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This may be interesting...



c. 100 BC - A.D. 100 The community who copied the Dead Sea Scrolls never referred to any Deutero book as Scripture or God Say as they did with other canon books.

c. A.D. 30 Jesus never quoted from any Deutero book.

A.D. 40 Philo, Jewish philosopher, refers to all but 5 O.T. books and never quotes from the Apocrypha.

c. A.D. 40 - 90 The New Testament writers do not quote from any Deutero book.

A.D. 90 The Council of Jamnia drew up a list of canonical books for Judaism; no Deutero book is accepted.

A.D. 80 - 100 Josephus, Jewish Historian, never mentions any Deutero book or quotes from any.

A.D. 170 The first verifiable canon listing from the Church Fathers was found in the writings of Melito of Sardis; no Deutero book is mentioned.

A.D. 320 Another listing by Athanasius lists canon books, but no Deutero book is mentioned.

A.D. 382 - 405 Jerome, who translated the Bible into Latin, opposed the Apocrypha as Scripture and as canon, though he translated it.

c. A.D. 350 Rufinius lists the Canon books, no Deutero book is among them.

c. A.D. 350 Cyril of Jerusalem rejected all the Deutero books.

c. A.D. 343-381 Regional ouncil of Laodicea rejects most of the Apocrypha except Baruch.

A.D. 393 Regional Synod of Hippo, influenced by Augustine, is the first listing of some of the Deutero books as Scripture and approved at the regional Council of Carthage (397).

A.D. 590 Gregory the Great, Pope of Rome, in his writings denies Maccabees as canonical but still says it is useful according to Roman Catholic patristics scholar, William Jurgens.

A.D. 1445 The RCC Council of Florence declares some of the Deutero books as Scripture.

c. early A.D. 1500 Catholic Cardinal Cajetan (who opposed Luther) points out that there are two levels of inspiration, and the Apocrypha, Judith, Tobit, books of Maccabees, Wisdom, and Ecclesiasticus were the lesser of inspiration and seen as non-canon books.

A.D. 1520 Polyglot Bible of Cardinal Ximenes (approved by Pope Leo X) published. No Deutero books are included.

A.D. 1546 The Roman Catholic Council of Trent finalized the Roman Church additions of the Apocrypha as full canon - for that denomination, a given set is accepted and made fully normative.


Luther's translation includes the usual 16th Century German set of Deutero books (one more than Trent accepted) but Luther shares his personal opinion that the DEUTERO books are not on the same level as the others.

The Anglican Church embraces even more books that Luther (and several more than the RCC) but officially dogmatizes Luther's view that the Deutero books are deutero - not fully canonical (Lutherans do not follow suit)

Calvinists declare that only 66 books are to be accepted and for them, the DEUTERO books are not included in their tomes or lectionary (Anglicans and Lutherans do not follow suit... American Baptists, heavily influence by Calvin, follow suit). I

n the USA (where the King James Bible dominates for all but Catholics and Lutherans), two versons are published: One with the Anglican "set" of Deutro books (used by Episcopalians and often Methodist) and one without (generally used by non-Episcopal and non-Lutheran American protestants). Many Americans .... opening up their particular edition of the KJV.... find certain books IN that tome and some missing... and make conclusions. A situation quite unique to the USA.


I'll get to your videos when time permits....



.
Many of those points are addressed :)
 

Josiah

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lol no I'm not David, the video was uploaded by an apologetic researcher Nathan Hoffman (no relation), David is the author of this particular research, Nathan I believe is a student of his.
I just meant that this thread was a draft because I'm at work right now


I see....


What is often CURIOUS to me is:


1. This was a total NON-ISSUE (and one on which there was no consensus and little interest) until the Reformation. And that only because of ONE VERSE in ONE Deutero book that the RCC's attorney argued supported Purgatory (and it does not). With all the DOGMAS that divide us, it amazes me some spend so much time on THIS.


2. I WISH someone would list a dozen or so DOGMAS taught in these Deutero books (any set you like ) and explain exactly WHY this book NEEDS to be accepted as canonical. WHAT, pray tell, is important to DOGMA here? Now, I agree, you could do that with a number of canonical books too but they aren't being challenged. The modern RCC has ONE reason to accept ONE verse in ONE deutero book (although it doesn't help them) but so far, that seems to be it. SURE - there's good inspirational stuff here and lots of helpful history, but why the big deal to .... after 2000 years.... insist we make some "set" EQUAL to the 66 in terms on canonicity? (CANON refers to their USE as a rule for DOGMA.. a book is canonical BECAUSE it is to be used as a NORM or RULE or NORMA NORMANS for debated dogmas among us). WHAT debated dogmas does some "set" prove to be canonical? No one seems to know.... Well, except modern Catholics for ONE book in ONE "set" (well, one spin on one verse in one).


3. I honestly think some Americans open up their edition of a tome published by some publishing house.... look in the index.... and think they know the situation. And people assume there are just two positions: Calvin and the RCC's post-Trent one. Wrong.





.
 

Andrew

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I see....


What is often CURIOUS to me is:


1. This was a total NON-ISSUE (and one on which there was no consensus and little interest) until the Reformation. And that only because of ONE VERSE in ONE Deutero book that the RCC's attorney argued supported Purgatory (and it does not). With all the DOGMAS that divide us, it amazes me some spend so much time on THIS.


2. I WISH someone would list a dozen or so DOGMAS taught in these Deutero books (any set you like ) and explain exactly WHY this book NEEDS to be accepted as canonical. WHAT, pray tell, is important to DOGMA here? Now, I agree, you could do that with a number of canonical books too but they aren't being challenged. The modern RCC has ONE reason to accept ONE verse in ONE deutero book (although it doesn't help them) but so far, that seems to be it. SURE - there's good inspirational stuff here and lots of helpful history, but why the big deal to .... after 2000 years.... insist we make some "set" EQUAL to the 66 in terms on canonicity? (CANON refers to their USE as a rule for DOGMA.. a book is canonical BECAUSE it is to be used as a NORM or RULE or NORMA NORMANS for debated dogmas among us). WHAT debated dogmas does some "set" prove to be canonical? No one seems to know.... Well, except modern Catholics for ONE book in ONE "set" (well, one spin on one verse in one).


3. I honestly think some Americans open up their edition of a tome published by some publishing house.... look in the index.... and think they know the situation. And people assume there are just two positions: Calvin and the RCC's post-Trent one. Wrong.





.
Your first point is outlined in the second video, the verse from the apocrypha the RCC used to promote the idea of purgatory is taken way out of context and does not support the dogma, the video agrees
 

Andrew

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Second point is outlined in the first video toward the end, the idea is that Sirach promotes work salvation and Sirach is has a few sayings that are almost verbatim in some NT gospels, again I will try and get back to you but my hands are tied
 

Josiah

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Your first point is outlined in the second video, the verse from the apocrypha the RCC used to promote the idea of purgatory is taken way out of context and does not support the dogma, the video agrees


I do need to get time to listen to all this....


Well. if the video agrees that there are no dogmas to which any Deutero book addresses (one way or the other) and thus has ZERO relevance as canon, then why is it relevant to spend over an hour discussing the relevance of any "set" as canonical????? Why is the whole issue (on which he spends over an hour) relevant at all?

Well, I'll try to get to it when I have such a big block of time.




.
 

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.
 
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Andrew

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[MENTION=13]Josiah[/MENTION] at 48:00 David addresses Luther in the first video
 
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Josiah

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I've personally studied the 16th Century GERMAN "set" that Luther included in his translation (one MORE than in modern, unique RCC tomes)... the LCMS publishing house (Concordia) has an excellent and quite in tense study.

MY conclusion was that SOME of the material is insightful, inspirational and/or historically helpful.... but I found nothing that should be doctrinally canonical and it seems (except for one denomination with one verse in one book - and that only for the last few centuries), no one else has either. Which is probably why this whole subject is kind of moot and has never been debated (SOME of the material struck me as downright weird, too, lol).



But the ISSUE seems driven by a FEW radical Catholics - not to defend any dogma or the relevance of all this material to historic Dogma, but simply as a way to rebuke SOME Protestants (they don't know it's not all Protestants). The whole issue seems to be "Hey, SOME Protestants have fewer books than the unique RCC tome since the 16th Century SO Protestants must have ripped them out!!! They don't seem to know that the current RCC tome is shorter than older Orthodox ones (sometimes by a LOT of books), so did the RCC "rip them out?" They don't seem to know that actually Catholic tomes for over 1000 years had 28 books in the NT but don't now, so did the RCC "rip it out?" They don't seem to know that their's is a UNIQUE collection of books, in accord with NO other denomination or even with Catholics down through the ages. A lot of myth. A lot of misunderstanding. Fueled, it seems, at wanting to find fault with "them Protestants." All the while... they don't read these books, they don't study these books, they don't give a rip about these books... and except for one verse in one book, can't find anything in them of any doctrinal value whatsoever (and actually, that verse doesn't help them at all to prove the EOC wrong, the EOC which btw also accepts that book (go figure). Much ado over very little.... fueled by a desire to find fault where there really isn't any.




.
 

Josiah

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The video LIES about Luther..... outright.... and mixes in a lot of wrong history.


1. He states that Luther wanted to REMOVE Matthew, Mark, Luke, Hebrew, James and Revelation from the Canon. This is pure nonsense, an outright lie. The video speaker evidently does not know that Luther's NT has ALL these books. Yes, he DID remove one book from typical Catholic NT tomes (all in German) but it was the Epistle to the Leodiceans, which the video speaker doesn't know. INCLUDED are Matthew and Mark and Luke and Hebrews and James and Revelation. And there is NOTHING in the introductions to any of the 27 about them being unscriptural or uncanonical. Yes, at one point, he questions some things in James but comes to fully accept it. It is also true that Revelation for over 1500 years (throughout Luther's day) was regarded as Scripture but not canonical (in fact in Luther's day, the EOC did not include any readings from Revelation from the lectionary) but Lutheran lectionaries of the time DID include such readings. His statements about Luther are all FALSE. And he never even mentions that Luther INCLUDED the German Deutero books in his translation.


2. The speaker claims Luther tried to create a "new canon." Actually, the reality is EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE. Over and over, Catholics and even some Lutherans WANTED Luther to do this, WANTED something official in the Lutheran Confessions about what is and is not a canonical book (much as the RCC , Anglican Church and Calvin would do AFTER Luthers death) but Luther REFUSED, insisting that no person and no single church had any authority to do this, this would require an Ecumenical Council (the last ended around 800 AD), which is why the Lutheran Confessions do NOT have a list of biblical books in them. The video has this exactly backwards. Luther's own translation has one MORE Deutero book in it than the modern Catholic one, and one LESS NT book than the German Catholic books of his time (he did NOT include the Epistle to the Leodiceans), but again REFUSED to state authoritatively or for "The Reformation" what is and is not a canonical book. The speaker has it backwards.


3. The speaker seems to have a crazy, odd idea that Luther invented some "rank" of canonicity/authority. He just made that up. Actually, the idea that not all Christian books are of equal status exists from the earliest of times. And he seems ignorant that the books he is talking about are correctly (and by Catholics, too) called DEUTERO canonical, the word MEANS "secondary" and that MEANS a ranking is implied. He is ignorant that Tertullian, Clement of Alexandria, Cyprian of Carthage, Origen, Eusebius, Cyril of Jerusalem, Athanasius of Alexandria, and many others - they all speak of rankings, they all speak of books seen as highly authoritative (called homiologumena) and those less so (called antilegomenia). They actually LIST them in these categories, as early as 150 AD. A RANKING of books being used. Many of the "antilegomenia" books are now in our NT (Hebrews, 2 Peter, Jude, etc.) and some aren't (Barnabas, Hermas, Didache, etc.) - POINT IS, all these men speak of books widely and strongly accepted and books with weaker acceptance. Eusebius actually puts commonly used/quoted/read books in FOUR categories - at the top, seen as most authorative were the 4 Gospels, Acts, all the Epistles of Paul, 1 John, 2 Peter. In the second, LOWER category, LESS authoritative, were James, Jude, 2 Peter, 2 & 3 John, Revelation of John (all eventually in out NT), in the third was Acts of Paul, Shepherd of Hermas, Apocaltypse of Peter, Epistle of Barnabas, the Didache. In the lowest of books Christians read and used and some accepted were The Gospels of Peter, Thomas & Mattias, Acts of Andrew and several others. POINT - he's stating that books Christians are reading and using are NOT all regarded as the same in terms of authority or canonicity. I might add that in the East, the Revelation of John was largely on a lower level than the other 26 for centuries - it was not permitted to read from it in the Sunday service or use it for teaching (it was used extensively liturgically, however - embraced as useful but UNDER the rest). POINT: For at least 1400 years before Luther, a "ranking" had ALWAYS been accepted. Luther speaks of this - AS EVERYONE DID and HAD - but has NOTHING TO DO with whether he fully accepted them into the Bible (he certainly include all 27 in his translation; he's only "issue" was with that Epistle to the Leodiceans). The guy in the video doesn't know his history. At all. And has things twisted BADLY.


4. He even rebukes Luther for wanting to change the order in which the books appear in a tome. ABSURD!!! There is no authorative order. THERE NEVER WAS. The EOC to this day does not have the books of the Bible in the same order as a Calvinist KJV. Luther didn't "want to change" the order because there was no order - still isn't. This guy makes this stuff up. NEVER had ANY body said "you have to publish the books in this particular sequence of books." YES - in the West - in the past few centuries - there is a tradition but that's all. And it didn't exist in Luther's day. And Luther never said a word about the order in which books must appear in a published tome.


This guy is nuts.




.
 
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Andrew

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It seems so, but he is not after Luther, it was wrong of me to direct to that so quickly, I thought it may bring more attention but the fact is that he is going somewhere with this if you were to listen to what he says prior... it does sound off just jumping into it I agree
 

Josiah

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It seems so, but he is not after Luther, it was wrong of me to direct to that so quickly, I thought it may bring more attention but the fact is that he is going somewhere with this if you were to listen to what he says prior... it does sound off just jumping into it I agree


He has no credibility for me. I urge extreme caution.... or better yet, avoidance.
 

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btw he addresses many of the points you are making, he is a lecturer I believe and it's easy for one to assume bias by a direct segment, you have to listen in context to what he says before and after... that's why I called it a 'draft' thread, because I'm not ready or willing to debate at this moment.
 

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He has no credibility for me. I urge extreme caution.... or better yet, avoidance.
You say this routinely I see, but I believe I may have simply mislead you on accident, the majority context other than the short segment on 'Luther' is needed, I myself found it "jarring to the ear" when prematurely directed to that 'time stamp'
 

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Regardless of his understanding and ridicule of Luther, his expose on the importance and inspiration of the original OT cannon (Septuigant) is 100% sound I am convinced, the Septuagint cannon (including the so called Apocrypha books) are indeed what the early NT Christians used, proof is in the pudding.
I own the apocrypha books but I really want to get my hands on the Septuagint so I can post the many parallel prophecies and quotes from the apocrypha along side with the NT.
There was never any 400 years of silence, those books point to many things that the Apostles knew that are missing from our masoretic text including festivals, messianic prophecies, first mention of demons, verbatim of some of Christ teachings etc... This is something the Pharisees withheld and the Catholics re introduced albeit with Jeromes mistake of labelling them "Apocrypha" giving it the stigma... anyway I'll update later on this month
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
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You say this routinely I see

... I don't recall ever posting that at CH before, in over 7000 posts.


But I've heard enough.... this man (who it seems has no formal biblical or theological training WHATSOEVER)... says his topic is the Apocrypha. I listened to some of Video 1, and everything he said is wrong, often the exact opposite of the truth, profoundly ignorant. Now, it's POSSIBLE he happens to say some correct things here and there (even Joseph Smith said some right things now and then) but it seems profoundly evident this is a very unsound teacher. We are to commanded to test the spirits and we are to avoid those who teach wrongly. I listened to perhaps 20 minutes of this and can't recall a single thing he said that was accurate. I think he is someone to avoid.


I honestly think MUCH of the debate on these books flows from misinformation and ignorance and from a Catholic vs. Calvinism war. But it IS a topic. I invite you to go to sound, scholarly resources by educated, reliable teachers - who document what they are saying rather than just making up WILD stuff out of thin air (and thus documenting nothing). As often the case, you will find various conclusions but you'll find that history is history and facts are facts. What this self-appointed prophet is proclaiming (at least in what I heard) is just a LONG, LONG chain of lies (to which he doesn't even ATTEMPT to document). SADLY, the internet has given self-proclaimed prophets a soap box... which means Christians need to be ESPECIALLY cautious, "testing the spirits" as never been more essential. MY counsel, my friend, is set this man aside.


Blessings in this season of Lent...


- Josiah




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