take up your cross

[Arsenios]

If "we" in your post means "Christians" - those with the divine Gift of faith, the Holy Spirit, justification - as I suspect it does, then I not only fully agree with you but hold you make a very, very important point, critical to the discussion.

The behemothic Orthodox I know, like me for instance, are always complaining that we ourselves are not taking up our crosses...

And this on a daily, hourly, and minute by minute basis...

Some Russian Saints were so distressed at their negligence that they forged iron chains about their waists...

And this so that the constant pressure of discomfort these caused them...

Would ever remind them to be praying without ceasing...

Because when the prayers would stop...

The discomfort would return...

But with the prayer unceasing...

Only Joy could be known...

For the rest of us lazy no-good-niks...

We schlepp along as best we can...

Complaining about our schlepptitude...


Arsenios

 

[Michael]

Good post...

The Greek reads:
IF ANYone IS WILLING,
AFTER ME TO BE COMING,
LET HIM FIRST DENY HIMSELF,
THEN TAKE UP HIS CROSS,
AND FOLLOW ME

It is worth reading line by line...

So HOW did Christ DO this?

There is one word that is CONSPICUOUS by its absence here...

It is the very MEANS of following Christ...

It is the very HEART of discipleship...

Anyone know what that word IS???

Arsenios

What is absent in Jesus teaching of what it means to be a True disciple is... any mention of 'accepting' or 'receiving' Him, or 'confessing' Him, which is what we today have largely lessened His charge to.
In Jesus eyes, being a True disciple (working our way to be a real "Christian") is based on our choices and more importantly our action. Oh yes... what we DO determines our status with Him.

 

[RichWh1]

What is absent in Jesus teaching of what it means to be a True disciple is... any mention of 'accepting' or 'receiving' Him, or 'confessing' Him, which is what we today have largely lessened His charge to.
In Jesus eyes, being a True disciple (working our way to be a real "Christian") is based on our choices and more importantly our action. Oh yes... what we DO determines our status with Him.

You need to go into the Book of Acts to find out that info. Peter and Paul both mentioned confessing and believing and accepting!! Argue with them!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Arsenios]

What is absent in Jesus teaching of what it means to be a True disciple is... any mention of 'accepting' or 'receiving' Him, or 'confessing' Him, which is what we today have largely lessened His charge to.
In Jesus eyes, being a True disciple (working our way to be a real "Christian") is based on our choices and more importantly our action. Oh yes... what we DO determines our status with Him.

I think you are the only one to take up the challenge...

The word is "OBEDIENCE"...

Christ ONLY did, as a man, what God the Father commanded Him to do...

Obedience is quintessential denial of self...

IF you desire to follow Christ...

You MUST find obedience...

Discipling entails placing the disciple in obedience to God...

This is prepared by establishing him as obedient to "those having the rule over you..." Heb 13:7, 17, & 24...

This preparation is needed in order that he later come to obey God directly...

The term "obedience" is conspicuously absent in our discussion here...

Voluntary and willful obedience...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

The sound of the death-rattle of pride is the word "obedience"...

Is YOUR Church discipling obedience???

How about lowliness?

How about poverty of spirit?


Arsenios

 

[Webster]

Severe beating of the body is of no value. To pick up the cross does not mean to beat ourselves into self-righteous holiness. It means that we recognize our rebellious, criminal condition which justly condemns us. We are sinners. We pick up all that sin and follow to Calvary where our sins are placed upon our Redeemer and we are pardoned.

Menno's right. I would add, though, that as Christians, we must also always be on guard that we do not backslide back into our sinful past selves.

 

[Michael]

I think you are the only one to take up the challenge...

The word is "OBEDIENCE"...

Christ ONLY did, as a man, what God the Father commanded Him to do...

Obedience is quintessential denial of self...

IF you desire to follow Christ...

You MUST find obedience...

Discipling entails placing the disciple in obedience to God...

This is prepared by establishing him as obedient to "those having the rule over you..." Heb 13:7, 17, & 24...

This preparation is needed in order that he later come to obey God directly...

The term "obedience" is conspicuously absent in our discussion here...

Voluntary and willful obedience...

Arsenios

Amen. You can't believe how much slack I get for preaching we need to "obey" the commands of God given through Jesus Christ and the Apostles.

One of the biggest veils over the churches eyes today to the understanding of "salvation." While most of us in this forum have indeed been "saved", most don't realize that it is only the beginning, not the end, of our journey. "Eternal salvation" which the Lord is bringing to "those waiting for Him" (Heb 9:28) is our end goal, where the overcoming saint will not only come forth as the "co-heir" of Christ, but actually become "salvation" for the nations of the earth. (Psalm 132:16)
This end is only for those who truly are "obedient" in their walk with the Lord, those who "remain in His love." As Jesus said, even He had to remain obedient to receive the promises of God. And praise His Name, He was! He was "obedient unto death, even to the death of the cross" (Phil 2:8), which paved the Way for us to follow after Him.

"If you obey My commands, you will remain in My love, just as I have obeyed My Father's commands and remain in His love." (John 15:10)

Again, the Scripture declares that Jesus had to prove Himself by His obedience to the Father in order that He might be "perfected" and be "given all authority" and that "Name above all other names." And now "having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him." (Heb 5:9)

OH yes, this "eternal salvation" is the reward for those who truly "denied themselves, picked up their cross daily and followed Jesus." Having "purified themselves" by their repentance and obedience, these will "appear with Him as He is" when He returns (1John 3:2-3) This is what is means to "come after Him"; now having truly "become one with Him as He is One with the Father."

Amen.

 

[NewCreation435]

The sound of the death-rattle of pride is the word "obedience"...

Is YOUR Church discipling obedience???

How about lowliness?

How about poverty of spirit?


Arsenios

what do you mean by "poverty of spirit"

 

[Arsenios]

what do you mean by "poverty of spirit"

Matt 5:3
Blessed are the poor in spirit:
for theirs is the Kingdom of the Heavens.

How do you understand this passage?


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Amen. You can't believe how much slack I get for preaching we need to "obey" the commands of God given through Jesus Christ and the Apostles.

One of the biggest veils over the churches eyes today to the understanding of "salvation." While most of us in this forum have indeed been "saved", most don't realize that it is only the beginning, not the end, of our journey. "Eternal salvation" which the Lord is bringing to "those waiting for Him" (Heb 9:28) is our end goal, where the overcoming saint will not only come forth as the "co-heir" of Christ, but actually become "salvation" for the nations of the earth. (Psalm 132:16)
This end is only for those who truly are "obedient" in their walk with the Lord, those who "remain in His love." As Jesus said, even He had to remain obedient to receive the promises of God. And praise His Name, He was! He was "obedient unto death, even to the death of the cross" (Phil 2:8), which paved the Way for us to follow after Him.

"If you obey My commands, you will remain in My love, just as I have obeyed My Father's commands and remain in His love." (John 15:10)

Again, the Scripture declares that Jesus had to prove Himself by His obedience to the Father in order that He might be "perfected" and be "given all authority" and that "Name above all other names." And now "having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him." (Heb 5:9)

OH yes, this "eternal salvation" is the reward for those who truly "denied themselves, picked up their cross daily and followed Jesus." Having "purified themselves" by their repentance and obedience, these will "appear with Him as He is" when He returns (1John 3:2-3) This is what is means to "come after Him"; now having truly "become one with Him as He is One with the Father."

Amen.

You are the only one willing to tackle this issue... Notice the Mountain of Silence engulfing every other poster here on the subject of obedience to those who "HAVE THE RULE OVER YOU"...

Obedience to those who have the rule over you is avoided at all costs here in the West as a general rule...

The matter is brought up...
The question is asked...
And all we hear is the Silence of the Lambs...
One might think we were at the Transfiguration!

And this is a feature of much of western theology, and especially here on Protestant discussions groups... Each "confession" has its own corner from which it proclaims its Biblical Truth, and when inconvenient verses are brought forth which need accounting, they are simply ignored... Some say the "whole of Scripture" does not mean what a particular verse plainly states... This is Menno's line... Others just ignore the inconvenient verses and look neither left nor right... Others do much less... It is a sorry state for the Christian Faith in the West...

Not even ONE other participant here wants to touch the matter of "obedience to those having the rule over you"...

You are the only one, and even you have made it mean "obedience to God", which at early stages of discipleship means self-rule...

And self-rule means death...

Thank-you for your forthright courage and love of God...


Arsenios

 

[Michael]

You are the only one willing to tackle this issue... Notice the Mountain of Silence engulfing every other poster here on the subject of obedience to those who "HAVE THE RULE OVER YOU"...

Obedience to those who have the rule over you is avoided at all costs here in the West as a general rule...

The matter is brought up...
The question is asked...
And all we hear is the Silence of the Lambs...
One might think we were at the Transfiguration!

And this is a feature of much of western theology, and especially here on Protestant discussions groups... Each "confession" has its own corner from which it proclaims its Biblical Truth, and when inconvenient verses are brought forth which need accounting, they are simply ignored... Some say the "whole of Scripture" does not mean what a particular verse plainly states... This is Menno's line... Others just ignore the inconvenient verses and look neither left nor right... Others do much less... It is a sorry state for the Christian Faith in the West...

Not even ONE other participant here wants to touch the matter of "obedience to those having the rule over you"...

You are the only one, and even you have made it mean "obedience to God", which at early stages of discipleship means self-rule...

And self-rule means death...

Thank-you for your forthright courage and love of God...

Arsenios

Bless you as well, brother, for your love for God and faithfulness to Jesus. And I appreciate the fellowship here as we study the Word of God.

However, I see "obedience to God" as being the sign of the most mature disciple.
It can be easy to 'obey' church leaders and the traditions of man, as it requires very little sacrifice of the carnal nature. This is what the religious folk of times past have done... all the way back to Israel after the Exodus and even their entrance into the Land. They 'obeyed' the laws, regulations and ordinances of the Mosaic Covenant, yet failed to "obey God." Outwardly they could appear pious and obedient, while inwardly full of that which will not inherit the Kingdom.

It was the Prophets and Judges sent by God who held and proclaimed the Truth of God above those who actually had been appointed as the rulers over the people: namely the Levites and priests. Those who should have known so often abused their position then, as well as now, grasping not the gravity of their calling. Honestly, the great bulk of 'leaders' in the churches and assemblies today - throughout all denominations - have not been called of God to that position. A Bible School Degree or Ordination by man does not make a True Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Teacher or Pastor. The True shepherds of God's people are often the unnoticed and unassuming individuals who have had True communion with the Lord and have been anointed by His Spirit to reveal His Truth and plant the seeds of the Kingdom and will bear fruit if laid hold of and obeyed.

An important passage in Acts is often overlooked as we find that God requires obedience to Him if we are to receive of His Holy Spirit. The traditions of the church often lead us to believe that we receive of the Spirit (and all that He brings) upon our 'acceptance of Christ.' But Peter's declaration teaches (disciples) us otherwise -

“We must obey God rather than men. 30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had murdered by hanging Him on a tree. 31 God exalted this man to His right hand as ruler and Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. 32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.” - Acts 5:29-32 HCSB

"Call no man on earth your father" means precisely that. Truly, I've had mentors along my Journey, and I do to this day; and accountability to other brothers who are diligent saints. And I will leave a church or denomination if I don't agree with the 'leadership' (many of whom are self, or man-appointed), rather than rebuke them or cause division. But I am under the authority of God and His Son far above anyone on this earth. So I press on in my journey and goal as a disciple of Christ, praying one Day to be called a "Christian" by my Father.

God's Wisdom and Understanding to us all.

 

[MennoSota]

You are the only one willing to tackle this issue... Notice the Mountain of Silence engulfing every other poster here on the subject of obedience to those who "HAVE THE RULE OVER YOU"...

Obedience to those who have the rule over you is avoided at all costs here in the West as a general rule...

The matter is brought up...
The question is asked...
And all we hear is the Silence of the Lambs...
One might think we were at the Transfiguration!

And this is a feature of much of western theology, and especially here on Protestant discussions groups... Each "confession" has its own corner from which it proclaims its Biblical Truth, and when inconvenient verses are brought forth which need accounting, they are simply ignored... Some say the "whole of Scripture" does not mean what a particular verse plainly states... This is Menno's line... Others just ignore the inconvenient verses and look neither left nor right... Others do much less... It is a sorry state for the Christian Faith in the West...

Not even ONE other participant here wants to touch the matter of "obedience to those having the rule over you"...

You are the only one, and even you have made it mean "obedience to God", which at early stages of discipleship means self-rule...

And self-rule means death...

Thank-you for your forthright courage and love of God...


Arsenios

Did your father disown you as his child for being disobedient?
God calls us to obedience, not to condemn us when we fail, but to lead us into righteousness and make us in His image.
When you and Michael make obedience a condition for God to accept us, you throw out grace and cheapen the relationship He has established through Jesus on our behalf

 

[Michael]

Did your father disown you as his child for being disobedient?
God calls us to obedience, not to condemn us when we fail, but to lead us into righteousness and make us in His image.
When you and Michael make obedience a condition for God to accept us, you throw out grace and cheapen the relationship He has established through Jesus on our behalf

God makes "obedience" to Him a condition, not me. It's all throughout the Scripture, New Testament and Old. No verse can cancel out His decree and charge to the saints. I'm always amazed and saddened at the distorted teaching of grace that has infiltrated the churches.

If God were to give authority in His Kingdom to a single 'sinner saved by grace' who did not prove themselves worthy by their obedience and been transformed as they "repented", "presented themselves a living sacrifice", and "denied themselves, taken up their cross daily and followed Jesus" He would defile His own Kingdom.

True GRACE is not a 'substitute' for obedience, but the means by which we actually can OBEY the Lord and find favor in His sight.

 

[Arsenios]

However, I see "obedience to God" as being the sign of the most mature disciple.

Yes - Only for those very mature in the Faith...

It can be easy to 'obey' church leaders and the traditions of man,
as it requires very little sacrifice of the carnal nature.

In the Churches of the West - Administrative bodies - You are doubtless correct...

This is what the religious folk of times past have done...
all the way back to Israel after the Exodus and even their entrance into the Land.
They 'obeyed' the laws, regulations and ordinances of the Mosaic Covenant,
yet failed to "obey God."
Outwardly they could appear pious and obedient,
while inwardly full of that which will not inherit the Kingdom.

We are speaking of the Epistle of Paul to the Hebrews...
The Mosaic Law is not in view...
He is speaking of Christian discipleship...

Heb 13:17
Obey them that have the rule over you,
and submit yourselves:
for they watch for your souls,
as they that must give account,
that they may do it with joy,
and not with grief:
for that is unprofitable for you.


This is what the Faith of Christ looked like in the first century...

It can still be found to this day in the EOC...

This is obedience that prepares the one being obedient for obedience to Christ...

For through it he acquires great love for his Elder...

Who has the rule over him...

Who must give account for his soul...

It was the Prophets and Judges sent by God who held and proclaimed the Truth of God above those who actually had been appointed as the rulers over the people: namely the Levites and priests. Those who should have known so often abused their position then, as well as now, grasping not the gravity of their calling. Honestly, the great bulk of 'leaders' in the churches and assemblies today - throughout all denominations - have not been called of God to that position. A Bible School Degree or Ordination by man does not make a True Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Teacher or Pastor. The True shepherds of God's people are often the unnoticed and unassuming individuals who have had True communion with the Lord and have been anointed by His Spirit to reveal His Truth and plant the seeds of the Kingdom and will bear fruit if laid hold of and obeyed.

These are not those having the rule over those being discipled in the Faith...

An important passage in Acts is often overlooked as we find that God requires obedience to Him if we are to receive of His Holy Spirit. The traditions of the church often lead us to believe that we receive of the Spirit (and all that He brings) upon our 'acceptance of Christ.' But Peter's declaration teaches (disciples) us otherwise -

“We must obey God rather than men. 30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had murdered by hanging Him on a tree. 31 God exalted this man to His right hand as ruler and Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. 32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.” - Acts 5:29-32 HCSB

Those who have the rule over you are mature in the Faith and obedient to God...
They are mature members of Christ's Body...
Obedience to such mature members of the Body of Christ...
IS obedience to Christ...

"Call no man on earth your father" means precisely that. Truly, I've had mentors along my Journey, and I do to this day; and accountability to other brothers who are diligent saints. And I will leave a church or denomination if I don't agree with the 'leadership' (many of whom are self, or man-appointed), rather than rebuke them or cause division. But I am under the authority of God and His Son far above anyone on this earth. So I press on in my journey and goal as a disciple of Christ, praying one Day to be called a "Christian" by my Father.

So you do the best that you can, as we all are doing here...

But the question is that of the obedience of the disciple being discipled in an Apostolic Church to "them that have the rule over you"...

This is clearly taught in Hebrews...

Do you think we have outgrown such obedience to such people?
That now we just start out with God-direct obedience?
That we have mentors whom we can disobey as we see fit?

Or is Hebrews correct?
For then and for today?
Or just then, long ago?


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Did your father disown you as his child for being disobedient?
God calls us to obedience, not to condemn us when we fail, but to lead us into righteousness and make us in His image.
When you and Michael make obedience a condition for God to accept us, you throw out grace and cheapen the relationship He has established through Jesus on our behalf

Did the Prodigal Son obey or disobey his father?
Did he or did he not need reconciliation?


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Did the Prodigal Son obey or disobey his father?
Did he or did he not need reconciliation?


Arsenios

Did he get disowned by his father? At what point would the prodigal son stop being a son and be cast out?

 

[Michael]

Yes - Only for those very mature in the Faith...




So you do the best that you can, as we all are doing here...

But the question is that of the obedience of the disciple being discipled in an Apostolic Church to "them that have the rule over you"...

This is clearly taught in Hebrews...

Do you think we have outgrown such obedience to such people?
That now we just start out with God-direct obedience?
That we have mentors whom we can disobey as we see fit?

Or is Hebrews correct?
For then and for today?
Or just then, long ago?


Arsenios

Perhaps herein lies our misunderstanding of one another... I am not a member of the Orthodox religion, so I am not subject to their leaders. Denominations are man-made. Now being a member, an elder, a teacher and deacon for many years in a denomination, I do my best not to buck the rules they have, even while I disagree with much of their SOF. God led me into the Foursquare denomination 20 years ago, and He has brought the increase in my life through some of the leaders. And yes, while I am in their assemblies, I strive to abide by their rules, but honestly, I view them as fellow disciples.

Ultimately, as the Twelve, there is only One who "rules over me", and it is to Him I must be obedient. The First Century converts had men who had walked with Jesus and been directly appointed by Him to the Apostleship. Oh yes, I do believe there are some appointed to such offices today (Eph 4:11), but they are generally not the ones heading up the denominations. I've personally met or been in meetings with some of the 'heads' of denominations or churches, and man, I question what spirit they received their doctrine from, for many preach "another gospel' that is foreign to the canon of Scripture. And I do not see them as ones "keeping watch over my soul."

I do stand by the Word of God which declares - "Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you." (Heb 13:17 NASB). And as I said, I strive to abide by the rules set up in the churches I'm involved with. In the one I am a member of, the leaders know where I stand on certain doctrines, yet they often invite me to teach, and I am obedient to share the Word as the Spirit leads me. We have some lively fellowship at times, but I'm back behind the pulpit the following week! So I know God is in control.

 

[Arsenios]

Perhaps herein lies our misunderstanding of one another...
I am not a member of the Orthodox religion,
so I am not subject to their leaders.

Well, fwiw, the Orthodox Faith does not subject its faithful to its "leaders"...
Most do not have a Spiritual Father and the parish Priest serves as best he can...
Finding a Spiritual Father is a quest of its own...
Genuine Spiritual Fathers in the US are few and far between...

Denominations are man-made.

Indeed, and that is a key difference between Apostolic Churches and western Denominations...

The latter are Anthropic...

The former Theanthropic...

Now being a member, an elder, a teacher and deacon for many years in a denomination, I do my best not to buck the rules they have, even while I disagree with much of their SOF. God led me into the Foursquare denomination 20 years ago, and He has brought the increase in my life through some of the leaders. And yes, while I am in their assemblies, I strive to abide by their rules, but honestly, I view them as fellow disciples.

Indeed they are...
And you are called to serve as best you can within their organizational parameters...
I get it...

Ultimately, as the Twelve, there is only One who "rules over me", and it is to Him I must be obedient. The First Century converts had men who had walked with Jesus and been directly appointed by Him to the Apostleship. Oh yes, I do believe there are some appointed to such offices today (Eph 4:11), but they are generally not the ones heading up the denominations. I've personally met or been in meetings with some of the 'heads' of denominations or churches, and man, I question what spirit they received their doctrine from, for many preach "another gospel' that is foreign to the canon of Scripture. And I do not see them as ones "keeping watch over my soul."

The very idea is not a part of their thinking...

But do YOU??

Have you taken responsibility for the souls of others?

I do stand by the Word of God which declares - "Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you." (Heb 13:17 NASB).

Good news indeed...

And as I said, I strive to abide by the rules set up in the churches I'm involved with. In the one I am a member of, the leaders know where I stand on certain doctrines, yet they often invite me to teach, and I am obedient to share the Word as the Spirit leads me. We have some lively fellowship at times, but I'm back behind the pulpit the following week! So I know God is in control.

So you are under no one and no one "has the rule over" you?

A kind of convicting question, yes?

Given that you "stand by" obedience and self-submission to those who "have the rule over you"...


Arsenios