Stealing a crucifix

[Stravinsk]

I'll ask the question again :

Can one steal an earthly item from a dead man? Forget about it being a religious item. Let's say it was a pocket watch instead.

Ownership doesn't have any meaning unless the Owner can exercise power over what is owned. I might say "I own my car", but if I can't drive it, sell it, dismantle it, add to it, or otherwise make use of it, how is it mine?

Dead people don't own things.

 

[Lamb]

I'll ask the question again :

Can one steal an earthly item from a dead man? Forget about it being a religious item. Let's say it was a pocket watch instead.

Ownership doesn't have any meaning unless the Owner can exercise power over what is owned. I might say "I own my car", but if I can't drive it, sell it, dismantle it, add to it, or otherwise make use of it, how is it mine?

Dead people don't own things.

Would grave robbing be okay in your opinion then?

 

[Stravinsk]

Would grave robbing be okay in your opinion then?

The concept of robbery is tied to the concept of ownership. If dead people do not own things (the argument I made above), then taking something from a dead person is not robbing them, as they cannot exercise ownership if they are dead.

What they can do, while living, is exercise a living will - so that the things they posses pass to people they want them to pass to when they die. The writing of a living will honors the living person's intentions for their possessions when they die.

This whole conversation reminds me of Christ's words regarding storing up treasures in heaven. The treasures we store up on earth are temporary. They are either passed to others or stolen when we die. The treasures we store in heaven are eternal.

 

[tango]

I'll ask the question again :

Can one steal an earthly item from a dead man? Forget about it being a religious item. Let's say it was a pocket watch instead.

Ownership doesn't have any meaning unless the Owner can exercise power over what is owned. I might say "I own my car", but if I can't drive it, sell it, dismantle it, add to it, or otherwise make use of it, how is it mine?

Dead people don't own things.

I guess if you want to be specific about ownership the item was taken from the dead man and thereby stolen from the dead man's estate. Since the estate hasn't been distributed the item can't be said to belong to his heirs, and therefore the item belongs to "estate of John Doe".

I think there's more to ownership than you list. If the man was on life support and unconscious he couldn't drive his car, sell his car, dismantle his car etc but the car would still legally belong to him. Hopefully in time he would recover and be able to do and or all of those things with it. Where items that have no specific practical purpose are concerned (e.g. jewelry) would you argue that an unconscious person cannot enjoy the item they own and therefore the concept of ownership is meaningless?

 

[Faith]

I'll ask the question again :

Can one steal an earthly item from a dead man? Forget about it being a religious item. Let's say it was a pocket watch instead.

Ownership doesn't have any meaning unless the Owner can exercise power over what is owned. I might say "I own my car", but if I can't drive it, sell it, dismantle it, add to it, or otherwise make use of it, how is it mine?

Dead people don't own things.

No, it’s still wrong.

 

[Stravinsk]

I guess if you want to be specific about ownership the item was taken from the dead man and thereby stolen from the dead man's estate. Since the estate hasn't been distributed the item can't be said to belong to his heirs, and therefore the item belongs to "estate of John Doe".

Yes, that's why I mentioned a living will - which communicates the wishes of the deceased in regards to their possessions before they die.

I think there's more to ownership than you list. If the man was on life support and unconscious he couldn't drive his car, sell his car, dismantle his car etc but the car would still legally belong to him. Hopefully in time he would recover and be able to do and or all of those things with it. Where items that have no specific practical purpose are concerned (e.g. jewelry) would you argue that an unconscious person cannot enjoy the item they own and therefore the concept of ownership is meaningless?

You've changed the scenario to include a person that has the possibility (however remote) of being able to exercise ownership rights in the future. Quite different from being dead.

 

[tango]

Yes, that's why I mentioned a living will - which communicates the wishes of the deceased in regards to their possessions before they die.

Sure, except the point remains that the theft is still a theft even if the dead man isn't technically the legal owner of the item being stolen.

You've changed the scenario to include a person that has the possibility (however remote) of being able to exercise ownership rights in the future. Quite different from being dead.

True, although a person receiving 24-hour hospice care after suffering a major stroke is virtually guaranteed to never recover such possibility. And the same logic applies - if someone can't enjoy any of the nominal benefits of ownership of an object it doesn't mean they no longer own it.

 

[Stravinsk]

Sure, except the point remains that the theft is still a theft even if the dead man isn't technically the legal owner of the item being stolen.

To steal something someone must own it. If there's a living will, the deceased possessions go to those he nominates.

But let's say there is no will, and the person had no living relatives. Who do their items belong to? Would you really argue that if I came across the embroidered coat stuffed in a chest of Napolean Bonapart, it would be *theft* for me to take it? Really? Who am I stealing from??

True, although a person receiving 24-hour hospice care after suffering a major stroke is virtually guaranteed to never recover such possibility. And the same logic applies - if someone can't enjoy any of the nominal benefits of ownership of an object it doesn't mean they no longer own it.

You can keep making this argument I guess, except that it still hinges on the fact that they are living and could possibly exercise ownership at a later date. The fact that the person is dead, not living, is an important part of the argument I'm making.

 

[tango]

To steal something someone must own it. If there's a living will, the deceased possessions go to those he nominates.

But let's say there is no will, and the person had no living relatives. Who do their items belong to? Would you really argue that if I came across the embroidered coat stuffed in a chest of Napolean Bonapart, it would be *theft* for me to take it? Really? Who am I stealing from??

You'd be stealing from the person's estate. Do you think it's not theft to take something that doesn't belong to you, however apparently clever an argument you can present that the rightful owner won't miss it?

You can keep making this argument I guess, except that it still hinges on the fact that they are living and could possibly exercise ownership at a later date. The fact that the person is dead, not living, is an important part of the argument I'm making.

Except your argument hinged on the person not being able to exercise rights of ownership because they were dead. Is your argument based on death or rights of ownership?

 

[Stravinsk]

You'd be stealing from the person's estate. Do you think it's not theft to take something that doesn't belong to you, however apparently clever an argument you can present that the rightful owner won't miss it?

Dead people don't have estates, their estate is property of the person(s) they left it to. If the estate was not left to anyone/didn't have any living relatives(my argument here)...then no, I don't think it's stealing. People have to own something for it to be stolen, and dead people don't own things.

What you're saying here Tango, is that Napoleon can reach out from the grave and sue me for finding/acquiring a piece of clothing he owned while amongst the living. Can you name Napolean's estate today as the rightful owners?

Except your argument hinged on the person not being able to exercise rights of ownership because they were dead. Is your argument based on death or rights of ownership?

Both. A dead person cannot exercise ownership rights except while they are living. Even if that means a living will for their possessions after they die.