Sinners Prayer

Josiah

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you saved yourself cause you read the Bible.


That's where we fundamentally disagree. I believe that Jesus is the Savior, not me. Jesus 100% the Savior, me 0% the Savior.



God does everything in us


I agree. Which is why Christianity affirms that is the Savior. It's because Jesus does the saving. Jesus, not you or me or Trump or Joseph Smith. Jesus saves us.




He works through people.

Usually.... again, just because God MAY use people and/or things doesn't make it any less GOD doing it. If a surgeon saves a life and he happens to have used a knife in doing that, it doesn't mean the knife saved the life.... and especially doesn't mean the patient saved his own life.

John the Baptist believed even before he was born....




The only thing we do

If we DO the thing that means we're saved then we're the savior, not Jesus.



And why does praying a prayer make you a cosavior and not reading the Bible and going to a church. Then that is cosaving too.


The good works of reading the Bible does not save, Jesus does. However, God MAY use the message of Scripture in which to convey faith to us. The message of the Gospel is ONE "Means of Grace." A tool in the hands of the Carpenter.




Cooperating


There are not TWO Saviors. It's not a case that Jesus did His part - the part that accomplishes noth'ing - and then we add our part - the part that actually results in our salvation. Jesus is the Savior, which means Jesus does the saving.

Jesus is not the "Opportunity Maker" He's the Savior.
Jesus is not the "Great Offerer" He's the Savior.
Jesus is not the "PART Savior" (the part that doesn't save).



The Holy Spirit did all the work.

I agree.

So, it's not cooperation. It's not what YOU do.




.
 
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Messy

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1 That's where we fundamentally disagree. I believe that Jesus is the Savior, not me. Jesus 100% the Savior, me 0% the Savior.


2 I agree. Which is why Christianity affirms that is the Savior. It's because Jesus does the saving. Jesus, not you or me or Trump or Joseph Smith. Jesus saves us.


3 Usually.... again, just because God MAY use people and/or things doesn't make it any less GOD doing it. If a surgeon saves a life and he happens to have used a knife in doing that, it doesn't mean the knife saved the life.... and especially doesn't mean the patient saved his own life.

John the Baptist believed even before he was born....


4 If we DO the thing that means we're saved then we're the savior, not Jesus.



5 The good works of reading the Bible does not save, Jesus does. However, God MAY use the message of Scripture in which to convey faith to us. The message of the Gospel is ONE "Means of Grace." A tool in the hands of the Carpenter.



6 There are not TWO Saviors. It's not a case that Jesus did His part - the part that accomplishes noth'ing - and then we add our part - the part that actually results in our salvation. Jesus is the Savior, which means Jesus does the saving.

Jesus is not the "Opportunity Maker" He's the Savior.
Jesus is not the "Great Offerer" He's the Savior.
Jesus is not the "PART Savior" (the part that doesn't save).



7 I agree.

So, it's not cooperation. It's not what YOU do.
1 I never said I was the savior. You came with that.
2 Yes Jesus saves.
3 Yes God saves.
4 Here I disagree. He tells you to do something and you obey or actually it's faith in you, cause if you don't get faith it's no use. A parrot doesn't get saved citing the sinner's prayer.
5 Just like the sinner's prayer. It's a tool.
6 Yes but that's no reason to tell people to stop teaching someone who has no clue how to pray to pray the sinner's prayer or the our Father to get saved. God has used it to get people saved.
7 He does it. He gets all the glory. He sends His Word. He gives you faith when you hear it. The Spirit convicts you of sin. But don't tell someone that they may not pray the sinner's prayer and have to wait, while they actually already believe and confess and they are saved already and think they're not chosen, cause God has to do it all and they don't feel He did. It is also a tool to let someone be sure they're saved when they got wrong teaching or better: Do you believe God raised Jesus from the dead and that Jesus is Lord? Yes. There. That's proof that you're saved, well, if you're not a christian gangster.
 

Albion

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Cooperating: say you refuse to read the Word and to go to a church to hear the Word, then how on earth can you get saved when you never hear the Word and why is it not a work to go hear it. It's a decision.
This discussion has raised some interesting ideas IMO, not just whether we are Justified by Faith or are not.

For one thing, we're looking at the #1 dispute that kicked off the Protestant Reformation. Even now, it divides the churches of Christianity rather solidly. All the Catholic Churches, East and West, affirm salvation by Faith + Works, IOW what you referred to as "cooperating."

And just about every Protestant Church, whatever else may divide them, believes in the concept that Lamb and Josiah have advanced--that we are justified not by anything of our own doing (even in part) towards reconciling with God.

When you say that the situation in the Netherlands is what it is because of the presence of Calvinism which causes people to believe in Justification by Faith, I have to say that, overall, the doctrine is actually identified more with Luther than with Calvin.

Depending on how firmly you believe in the idea being referred to by the word "cooperating," I can't help but think that maybe you should look into Catholicism, so basic is the issue we're debating, 'cause we're never going to change minds here on this discussion board, not when it comes to this particular issue.

It has been difficult, if not a total failure, trying just to get people who are on that side of the matter to understand what "works" means, therefore making any progress on the bigger issue would seem to be even less promising..
 
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Messy

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This discussion has raised some interesting ideas IMO, not just whether we are Justified by Faith or are not.

For one thing, we're looking at the #1 dispute that kicked off the Protestant Reformation. Even now, it divides the churches of Christianity rather solidly. All the Catholic Churches, East and West, affirm salvation by Faith + Works, IOW what you referred to as "cooperating."

And just about every Protestant Church, whatever else may divide them, believes in the concept that Lamb and Josiah have advanced--that we are justified not by anything of our own doing (even in part) towards reconciling with God.

When you say that the situation in the Netherlands is what it is because of the presence of Calvinism which causes people to believe in Justification by Faith, I have to say that, overall, the doctrine is actually identified more with Luther than with Calvin.

Depending on how firmly you believe in the idea being referred to by the word "cooperating," I can't help but think that maybe you should look into Catholicism, so basic is the issue we're debating, 'cause we're never going to change minds here on this discussion board, not when it comes to this particular issue.

It has been difficult, if not a total failure, trying just to get people who are on that side of the matter to understand what "works" means, therefore making any progress on the bigger issue would seem to be even less promising..
Protestants say they don't believe in works and it's only saved by grace, but they don't really believe that if you believe Jesus is Lord and you are not changed at all and you're a christian gangster, that you're then saved. So why is a catholic and an evangelical works based? Everyone except a false grace teacher believes you can't be a christian gangster.

 

Albion

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Protestants say they don't believe in works and it's only saved by grace, but they don't really believe that if you believe Jesus is Lord and you are not changed at all and you're a christian gangster, that you're then saved.
In the first place, we cannot speak for every Christian person in any or all denominations. Some individuals believe the craziest stuff despite what their own church teaches them.

So when we say "Protestants believe..." it's a reference to what those denominations believe and teach and what the members who actually know it and agree with it think.

Secondly, you have not described a contradiction. The point you made in the quoted section above was not about justification by faith rather than by works or by both.

The situation you outlined was evidence of a person not having faith, although he might say he does.

That's precisely what the Epistle of James which is often quoted is all about. So if there isn't real faith and the person goes on living like an unconverted person, his life doesn't prove a thing about justification by faith or by works, either.


So why is a catholic and an evangelical works based?
As I was saying, Catholicism believes that salvation comes by faith plus works, the two of them together. That's what your post appeared to support as your personal view.

Therefore, it crossed my mind that maybe you ought to consider becoming a Catholic, if you feel strongly about this. And that's because there is almost no support for that POV among Protestants, whatever the particular denomination.
 

Messy

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In the first place, we cannot speak for every Christian person in any or all denominations. Some individuals believe the craziest stuff despite what their own church teaches them.

So when we say "Protestants believe..." it's a reference to what those denominations believe and teach and what the members who actually know it and agree with it think.

Secondly, you have not described a contradiction. The point you made in the quoted section above was not about justification by faith rather than by works or by both.

The situation you outlined was evidence of a person not having faith, although he might say he does.

That's precisely what the Epistle of James which is often quoted is all about. So if there isn't real faith and the person goes on living like an unconverted person, his life doesn't prove a thing about justification by faith or by works, either.



As I was saying, Catholicism believes that salvation comes by faith plus works, the two of them together. That's what your post appeared to support as your personal view.

Therefore, it crossed my mind that maybe you ought to consider becoming a Catholic, if you feel strongly about this. And that's because there is almost no support for that POV among Protestants, whatever the particular denomination.
I totally don't agree with catholic stuff and the pope. Evangelical churches believe and teach this, at least in Holland. A guy who used to post here is evangelical and American. He heard a preaching from our church that you had to abide in Jesus and he was like: Nooooo! That's work based! Huh? What? Demas didn't make it, cause he didn't abide in Him. It's just a warning to not fall back and I saw one great explanation on internet from a guy who says it is both true. You are secure and the warning is because of that, just like with Paul on the ship. The angel said they would not die. They trie to escape. He says: No! Stay on the ship or you will perish! And the angel just said they would not perish, so why warn them? They didnt perish because they listened. It was both true.
 

Albion

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I totally don't agree with catholic stuff and the pope.
Well, that's the rub, isn't it? While one of the most famous and important of doctrines seems to put you on the Catholic side of the issue, there are a lot of other teachings that you naturally could not agree to--Papal infallibility, Transubstantiation, seven sacraments, veneration of the saints, to name just a few.
Evangelical churches believe and teach this, at least in Holland. A guy who used to post here is evangelical and American. He heard a preaching from our church that you had to abide in Jesus and he was like: Nooooo! That's work based!

He was totally wrong there, but he's not alone in misunderstanding the issue.
 

Messy

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.
Maybe it's time to interject with some comic relief?


Old Dan Tucker was a fine old man
He washed his face in a frying pan
He combed his hair with a wagon wheel
And died of a toothache in his heel

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Here come old flat top
He roller coaster
He got early warning
He got muddy water
He one Mojo filter
He say one and one and one is three
Got to be good looking
'Cause he's so hard to see

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

A spinster lady was asked why she never married. Well; she said: I've got a
hound that lays around the house all day, a stove that smokes, and a bird
that cusses. What do I need a man for?

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Faith is believin' somethin' you know ain't so.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

It ain't what you know that gets you in trouble,
It's what you know for sure that just ain't so,

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Burma Shave
_
Three sons left home, went out on their own and prospered. Getting back together, they discussed the gifts they were able to give their elderly Mother. The first said, "I built a big house for our Mother." The second said, "I sent her a Mercedes with a driver." The third smiled and said, "I've got you both beat. You remember how Mom enjoyed reading the Bible? And you know she can't see very well any more. I sent her a remarkable parrot that recites the entire Bible. It took Elders in the church 12 years to teach him. He's one of a kind. Mama just has to name the chapter and verse, and the parrot recites it." Soon thereafter, Mom sent out her letters of thanks, "Milton," she wrote one son, "the house you built is so huge. I live in only one room, but I have to clean the whole house." "Gerald," she wrote to another, "I am too old to travel any more. My eyesight isn't what it used to be. I stay most of the time at home, so I rarely use the Mercedes. And the driver is so rude!" "Dearest Donald," she wrote to her third son, "you have the good sense to know what your Mother likes. The chicken was delicious!"
 

Josiah

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@Albion @Messy

Perhaps this helps...

Issues of the Reformation: Salvation


This was the KEY ISSUE. It was the one issue over which the church of the day used to excommunicate Luther, split the denomination and drive the Reformation. There were several other main issues (ecclesiology, epistemology and several others), but this was the “deal breaker.” And this issue is at the very heart, the very center of Christianity…. It is the “keystone” by which Christianity stands or falls.

We must begin with a definition: By “salvation” Protestants mean justification in the narrow sense. The word means "to rescue" and Protestants tend to hold that we were DEAD and unable to rescue ourselves, we NEED a savior, the savior, someone outside ourselves, indeed God Himself, to rescue us.

SOME Catholics refer to this as "initial grace."

By "salvation" we mean our changed relationship with God, our spiritual coming to life, some call this "Born again (born a second time - first physical, second spiritual)" It is not at all to be mixed or confused with sanctification (discipleship, Christian living) which is what results and follows from justification – what we are to do as Christians (those justified). Here, when we say “salvation” we mean it in this sense of narrow justification. We are NOT at all dismissing the Call to perfect holiness, divine love, absolute moral perfection, service to all as unto God, and the sharing of the Gospel with all 7.7 billion people on Earth.... salvation does not cancel the Law BUT it does remove the curse of the Law, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, there is forgiveness; for the saved, the Law remains but the Gospel is now present too.


+ Christ IS the Savior!

Salvation (in this sense) all hinges on one pretty simple but very, very critical question (all eternity hinges on it): WHO is the Savior?

IF you answer "Jesus" then Jesus is the Savior. Not you - not a bit, not at all, not now, not ever, not in any way or shape or form or manner. Salvation is entirely, wholly, completely wrapped up in Jesus. Alone. Salvation is the work of Jesus, the accomplishment of Jesus, something Jesus does. It's entirely HIS work. HIS heart. HIS love. HIS mercy. HIS gift. HIS blessing. His life, His death, His resurrection. His Cross, His blood, His sacrifice. His righteousness, His obedience, His holiness. Not you. Not yours. Not in whole. Not in part. Not now. Not ever. You may have some other role in some other matter (Christian living, for example), but not this. The "job" of Savior belongs to Jesus. Not you.

IF you answer "me!" then you are the Savior. Not Jesus - not a bit, not at all. Not now, not ever. Not in any way, shape or form or manner. Salvation is all wrapped up in YOU. In YOUR works. YOUR will. YOUR love. YOUR efforts. YOUR merits. YOUR obedience. YOUR righteousness. YOUR decisions. Your surrendering. YOUR holiness. YOUR sacrifice. Not Jesus. Not Jesus'. Jesus may have some other role in some other matter, just not this one. The Savior is you.


Here’s the problem…..

While the church was ONCE crystal clear that Jesus is the exclusive SAVIOR (even officially declaring so at the Council of Orange in 529), all this had gotten seriously gummed up. For centuries before Luther, the “answer” was pretty much: ME. The typical view in Luther’s time was that rather than being the Savior, Jesus actually had two very different roles:

Jesus the Possibility-Maker. The “spin” was that Jesus did all that is necessary to make salvation possible. By His life, death and resurrection, He opened the gate to heaven, and made it POSSIBLE to us to be saved. Of course, that’s true – but its light years away from saying He’s the Savior! People were told THEY had to get THEMSELVES through those gates – thus the actual “job” of salvation is our own. People were told that Jesus is not the Savior (you have that job) rather He is the possibility-maker. Some stressed that we save ourselves by our works or our faith, others had other ideas in how we save ourselves but they are all embracing that while Jesus makes salvation possible – we actually save ourselves by what WE do, something(s) we can point to that WE did.

Jesus the Helper. But we can’t do it by our own innate strength and ability – we need HELP. The medieval church of the west defined the word “grace” (in justification) as “help.” Or as it is sometimes put today, “Grace is the divine ‘gas’ God puts in your ‘tank’ so that YOU ultimately can get YOURSELF where you need to be.” This “help” became the focus of the concept of salvation – the HELP we need (and get) so that we can save ourselves. HELP from the Roman Catholic Church…. HELP from the official current “Saints” declared by the Roman Catholic Church, HELP from the “Treasury of Merits” of the Roman Catholic Church, HELP from the Virgin Mary, etc. Jesus too began to be proclaimed as our HELPER. If YOU adequately tap this “help” you can save yourself. But that’s lightyears away from proclaiming that Jesus saves!


There are really just two places to look: To the mirror OR to the Cross. There are really only two religions in the world: Trusting in Christ or trusting in self. When we stop looking to the perfect, divine CHRIST and instead look in the mirror to the sinful, flawed, limited SELF – either uncertainty and fear result (as we realize how lacking we are) OR pride/boasting results if we conclude the guy in the mirror in one awesome dude. Most lacked the ego for the second – so fear, insecurity reigned as people HOPED someday to save themselves but….

+ Monergism vs. Synergism – The DEBATE


These are the theological terms used for the “two sides” in this critical debate (that ultimately split the Roman Catholic Church in 1521). Note, all agreed that sanctification (discipleship, the life of a Christian, what one does as a Christian with faith and the Holy Spirit) certainly IS synergistic (no debate there). But central to the entire debate centered on salvation - the COMING of the Holy Spirit, of spiritual life, of the application of the Gospel and work of Christ, the coming of the gift of faith) - "salvation" in the sense Luther and Calvin meant it (as the Catholic Church well knew).

Monergism (One-side) is the conviction that salvation is God’s gracious gift. Jesus is THE one, exclusive, all-sufficient Savior. This conviction is the basis for the “rally cries” of the Reformation: Sola Gratia – Solus Christus – Sola Fide. Soli Deo Gloria! The “sola, solus, soli” are all Latin for exclusively, solely, alone, only. The Reformation is a solid, bold, confident proclamation that salvation is all about Jesus!

Lutherans and Calvinists express this teaching by 4 Latin phrases. They are ONE, united, inseparable teaching (they cannot be separated) but are sometimes discussed individually.

SOLA Gratia – Grace Alone: it’s all about God’s heart! It all begins with and happens because of God’s heart, His unconditional and unearned love, favor, mercy and gifts. “For God so loved the world…..”

SOLUS Christus – Christ Alone: It’s all the result of what Jesus did/does; Christ is the Savior! “… that He gave His only begotten son”

SOLA Fide – Faith Alone: Which faith trusts/embraces/apprehends; faith as God’s work, too. How the work of Christ is applied to the individual. “whosoever believes in Him”

SOLI Deo Gloria – God ALONE has all the glory, gets all the “credit.” ALL the above is God’s doing. The arrow comes down….. a blessing….. a gift….. an inheritance….


Synergism (Two-sides, Cooperation). This became the Catholic position against Luther. Our salvation, the Roman Catholic Church of the day insisted, is a cooperative venture: Jesus does his part (opening those gates) and we do ours (walking through them). Luther, it insisted, was a heretic for holding to the view of monergism, for holding that Jesus is the all-sufficient Savior. The Catholic Church insisted Jesus has to do His part good enough (and He did), now we gotta do our part good enough (ultimately it's WE who do that part that actually results in our entering heaven).

Luther stressed it’s all a GIFT from God! God’s doing! Luther stressed God’s mercy, favor, and unconditional love. The church then stressed it’s instead a cooperative venture – Jesus opening the “gates” and insuring we are offered sufficient help – we needing to “tap” that sufficiently, do all the “stuff” we need to do, and (ultimately) get ourselves saved.

Without a doubt, there was plenty of “talking past” each other (sadly, misunderstandings often play part of debate) but largely – it came down to these two basic, mutually exclusive views. Luther would not recant and so was excommunicated (by the way, Luther desired to submit BOTH views to a true ecumenical council and submit to its ruling, but that never happened).

Know that there are LOTS of modern forms of synergism (it’s alive and well and living in a lot of churches – some of which are “Protestant”). Synergism is any form of Jesus PLUS me. When salvation (in the sense we are speaking of here) is said to require: “You must surrender the steering wheel of your life!” “You must recite the sinner’s prayer!” “You must dedicate your life to Jesus!” If it’s “you” – it’s not all about Jesus. If it’s ‘you’ then it’s looking in the mirror, not to the Cross. Beware of “Yeah, Jesus is the Savior BUT you gotta (fill in the blank) !” That’s a contradiction. That’s synergism… it’s ultimately looking in the mirror, trusting in self, denying Jesus as the Savior. AGAIN, that IS true in Sanctification (the Christian life) but not in Justification (the BECOMING a Christian).


Continues in next post....




.
 
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Josiah

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Continues in the next post.....


.
 
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Josiah

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Continuing from above....


+ Some Scriptures

Law

“You must be morally perfect just as your Father in heaven is morally perfect” (Matt. 5:48).

“You must be holy for I the Lord your God am holy” (Leviticus 20:26).

“For all people sin and fall short of God’s requirements” (Romans 3:23).

“There is no one that does good, not even one” (Romans 3:12).

“By our efforts will no one be justified” (Galatians 2:16).

“If salvation were through our keeping of the law then Christ died for no purpose” (Galatians 2:21).

Gospel

“God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whoever believes in Him will not perish but has everlasting life!” (John 3:16),

“God shows His love for us in that while we were enemies, Christ died for us” (Rom. 5:8).

“God saved us not because of deeds done by us but in virtue of His own mercy, that we might be saved by His grace” (Titus 3:5),

“For our sake God made Jesus to be sin who knew no sin so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21).

“The free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus.” (Romans 6:23).

“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your doing but it is the gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8).

“Everyone that believes in Christ receives forgiveness of sins through His name” (Acts 10:43)

“Sirs, what must we do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.” Acts 16:30-31

“Christ is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world” 1 John 2:2

“Look, the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.” - John 1:29

“The blood of Jesus purifies us from all sin.” 1 John 1:7

“God reconciled the world to Himself through Christ, not counting men’s sins against them.” 2 Cor. 5:19

“Because I live, you will live also.” John 14:19


Faith


“For by grace you have been saved through faith in Christ, and all this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” Ephesians 2:8

“”You did not chose Me but I chose you” John 15:16

“Those whom He predestined He also called and those whom He called He also justified” Romans 8:30

“There is a remnant of believers, chosen by God’s grace” Romans 11:5

“In love God chose us before the foundations of the world for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ” Ephesians 1:4-5

“The one without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit for they are foolishness to him and he cannot understand (accept) them.” 1 Cor. 2:14

“No one is capable of professing ‘Jesus is Lord’ apart from the work of the Holy Spirit.” 1 Cor. 12:3


+ Some quotes

Luther’s explanation of the Apostle’s Creed:

I believe that God has made me and all creatures; that He has given me my body and soul, eyes, ears, and all my limbs, my reason, and all my senses, and still preserves them; in addition thereto, given me clothing and shoes, meat and drink, house and homestead, wife and children, fields, cattle, and all my goods; that He gives me richly and daily with all that I need to support this body and life, protects me from all danger, and guards me and preserves me from all evil; and all this out of pure, fatherly, divine goodness and mercy, without any merit or worthiness in me; for all which I owe it to Him to thank, praise, serve, and obey Him.

I believe that Jesus Christ, true God, begotten of the Father from eternity, and also true man, born of the Virgin Mary, is my Lord, who has redeemed me, a lost and condemned creature, purchased and won [delivered] me from all sins, from death, and from the power of the devil, not with gold or silver, but with His holy, precious blood and with His innocent suffering and death, in order that I may be His own, and live under Him in His kingdom, and serve Him in everlasting righteousness, innocence, and blessedness, even as He is risen from the dead, lives and reigns to all eternity.

I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him; but the Holy Ghost has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified and kept me in the true faith; even as He calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the whole Christian Church on earth, and keeps it with Jesus Christ in the one true faith; in which Christian Church He forgives daily and richly all sins to me and all believers, and at the last day will raise up me and all the dead, and will give to me and to all believers in Christ everlasting life. This is most certainly true.

From Luther’s “Bondage of the Will”

"Man’s salvation is utterly beyond his own powers, counsels, efforts, will and works, and depends absolutely on the will, counsel, pleasure and work of Another -- Christ alone, who alone is Savior. As long as a man is persuaded that he can make even the smallest contribution to his salvation, he remains self-confident and away from salvation.”



Thank you!


Blessings!


Josiah



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Josiah

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An evaluation

@Albion @Messy@Lamb


Again, the "debate" is between Monergism vs. Synergism in initial justification (justification in the narrow sense - the changed relationship). Whether Pelagianism is to be repudiated or embraced (at least partly). See post 48.

OFFICIALLY, TECNHICALLY the RCC is better here than it seems. The issue is more one of what is stressed and a difference in that Catholicism INSISTS on keeping justification and sanctification together (as one whole) whereas most Protestants INSIST on keeping them separate. In a way, SOME modern Catholic and Reformation theologians believe the two "sides" in part "talked past each other." I think so, too. In some ways, Catholicism is not as "off" as some Protestants on this issue. But here's the deal: What might be OFFICIALLY/TECHNICALLY Catholic position is, that's not what's taught! I know! What IS taught in Catholic sermons, studies, First Communion and RCIA classes, is very synergistic, quite Pelagian. As I was taught, "God opens the door to heaven but you gotta get yourself through it." "Jesus actually saves no one but makes possible for all to save themselves." That's what you hear, that's what is taught. Again, you could argue this is NOT actually the Catholic stance... but it IS what is taught.

And yes, the Reformation was about what was and still is taught in Catholicism. Luther, Calvin and Anglicanism differed on other subjects but they were clearly united on this one. The emphasis was on Monergism, on Jesus as the Savior (Jesus doing the saving), on a complete repudiation of Pelagianism. They largely AGREED with CAtholicism on sanctification (the Christian life) but disagreed with justification (what some Catholics call "initial grace"). Again, see post 48.


But after Luther, Calvin and Anglicanism ("First Wave" REFORMATION) came radicals, revolutionaries, reconstructionists (Anabaptists, etc.) with all the synergism and Pelagianism that Luther and Calvin decried. Indeed, they stressed synergism and Pelagianism MORE than Catholicism! And officially! The Radicals simply replaced the good work of loving service (Catholicism) with "decision theology" but in both, Jesus doesn't actually save, each must save self. And these radicals stressed Pelagianism FAR more than Catholicism - even denouncing original sin and embracing that man is basically good and able to save self. For these, the Reformation went "full circle" right back to exactly what was originally protested - only worse

Unfortunately, in much of modern Protestantism, the radical revolutionaries have won the day - it's what most Protestants hear (along with their Catholic brothers and sisters). A hundred years ago, many Protestant colleges and seminaries were engulfed in a WAR between those holding to the Lutheran/Reformed/Anglican Reformation view (monergistic, anti-Pelagianism) and the Radical view (synergistic, Pelagian/Decision Theology). But in the 20th Century, the radical view largely won the day in many churches. So in Protestantism, we hear e ven more radical things than one might in Catholicism.... "God helps those who help themselves." "Jesus extends the invitation but you gotta accept it." Both stressing that that the unregenerate ain't so bad.... sin ain't so big.... JEsus needed to prep a place for us but we gotta attain it (Catholics - by our love, Evangelicals - by our decision and obedience).


Thank you.


- Josiah



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Lamb

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@Josiah, what's the TLDR version? :D

For me, it's God saves us despite our sinful selves and He alone does the saving.
 

Josiah

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Odë:hgöd

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People born fully deaf and fully blind have never heard even one word of any
language, nor have they seen even one glimpse of this world's wide variety of
things to see. What kind of thoughts do those people have when there are no
visuals in their minds to draw upon nor any speech? I can't imagine thinking
without words and pictures when the only senses one has to work with are taste,
touch, and smell. They can't even talk to themselves in soliloquy.
_
 
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Lamb

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Odë:hgöd

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I was baptized an infant into the Roman Catholic Church, and for the first 24 years
my prayers were pretty much limited to rote, i.e. repetitive mantras like the Hail
Mary, the Our Father, the Act of Contrition, and the children's prayer; Now I Lay Me
Down To Sleep, etc. I never got into the rosary, though my family had some around
the house.

Anyway, in time I discovered-- by means of Matt 6:7-8 --that Jesus discourages rote
prayer. And-- again in time --I discovered that honest prayer is the acceptable medium
of communication with Heaven.

In a nutshell; seeing as how only a nut case would speak to their families, their
friends, and/or their associates with repetitive rote mantras, then we really
shouldn't be speaking to God that way either. If He is at any way at all an
intelligent mature adult, then I think we may safely assume that He would very
much appreciate people treating Him as someone with a brain instead of a totem
pole or a wailing wall.

Heb 4:14-16 . . For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize
with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as
we are-- yet was without sin. Let us then approach the throne of grace with
frankness, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of
need.

So folks would be wise to put their prayer books away in storage and voice their
concerns from the heart with free, candid, forthright, and sincere expression
because frankness stresses lack of shyness or secretiveness or of evasiveness from
considerations of tact or expedience; ergo: frankness implies transparency, i.e.
unbridled freedom of speech and the liberty to speak your mind without fear of
ridicule, shame, disgrace, retribution, or retaliation, viz: with Jesus on the job,
people may speak to Heaven just as they'd speak with their wives and/or their best
friends.

For example: when I was diagnosed with esophageal cancer this past November, I
began having anxiety attacks. But not from fear of death. I'm 79+ years old. It's
actually kind of time for me to die of something anyway so I was okay with that. It
was in contemplating the treatment options that put me on the path to a nervous
breakdown.

So I didn't ask for healing-- well actually I didn't ask for anything at all --instead I
explained to God that I didn't have the courage to see this thing thru and was
seriously concerned it would put me over the edge.

Long story short: the anxiety attacks subsided and I actually completed the chemo
and the radiation with a pretty good attitude.

The thing is: I shared my concerns with God in an informal, man to man way. i.e.
outspoken, candid, and freely expressed with no reservations. For me: that was the
ticket to a greatly improved mental state.
_
 
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Albion

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I was baptized an infant into the Roman Catholic Church, and for the first 24 years
my prayers were pretty much limited to rote, i.e. repetitive mantras like the Hail
Mary, the Our Father, the Act of Contrition, and the children's prayer; Now I Lay Me
Down To Sleep, etc. I never got into the rosary, though my family had some around
the house.

Anyway, in time I discovered-- by means of Matt 6:7-8 --that Jesus discourages rote
prayer. And-- again in time --I discovered that honest prayer is the acceptable medium
of communication with Heaven.
But it is also true that when Jesus was directly asked by his followers how to pray, he led them through what you deride as a "rote" prayer--the Lord's Prayer or "Our Father." So now you're telling us that it's wrong to pray as Christ taught us to pray????

Not just the Roman Church, but most denominations, pray certain prayers because they date back to the Ancient church age and because the contents represent a confession of faith in the basic teachings of Christianity, taken straight from Scripture. These are a unifying feature of our faith, which is also a Scriptural principle. Surely it is more edifying to have a hundred or more pray together during the worship service than having every person, at the same time, babble or shout whatever comes to mind--which is something I have witnessed myself when visiting those churches.

When we turn to the subject of private prayer, none of the churches that most people attend and which value corporate prayer, then also discourage individuals from praying to God using their own words to express what is in their hearts. Not among Catholics and not among Protestants. Anybody who supposes that it's otherwise is sadly misinformed.
 

Lamb

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But it is also true that when Jesus was directly asked by his followers how to pray, he led them through what you deride as a "rote" prayer--the Lord's Prayer or "Our Father." So now you're telling us that it's wrong to pray as Christ taught us to pray????

Not just the Roman Church, but most denominations, pray certain prayers because they date back to the Ancient church age and because the contents represent a confession of faith in the basic teachings of Christianity, taken straight from Scripture. These are a unifying feature of our faith, which is also a Scriptural principle. Surely it is more edifying to have a hundred or more pray together during the worship service than having every person, at the same time, babble or shout whatever comes to mind--which is something I have witnessed myself when visiting those churches.

When we turn to the subject of private prayer, none of the churches that most people attend and which value corporate prayer, then also discourage individuals from praying to God using their own words to express what is in their hearts. Not among Catholics and not among Protestants. Anybody who supposes that it's otherwise is sadly misinformed.

So true. Since Jesus gave that prayer, it must be something pretty special even though we memorize it ;)
 

Odë:hgöd

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1John 3:22 . . .Whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His
commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight.

I think that right there is the very reason why so many Christians experience pings
with their prayers, In other words: not only is their compliance with God's
commandments unsatisfactory, but they lack interest in doing the things that are
pleasing in His sight.
_
 
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