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popsthebuilder

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I see this talk about not following the letter of the law. Itakes me wonder what the law of the Spirit is for. Is it not to be followed?

The law of Moses was molested in our printed renderings it seems. But that doesn't mean that Christ doesn't come in/ with truth. The Spirit is to be both heard and followed it seems to me. Hearing alone does not save does it?

peace, I hope everyone is well.

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Josiah

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Justification.... Sanctification....


There are TWO DIFFERENT issue here: Justification and Sanctification (narrow sense, both).


Let me use this analogy:

FIRST: On January 23, 1988, I was born. I was GIVEN life - the miracle, the wonderful, mysterious GIFT of life (we might agree that actually happened about 9 months earlier, but let's proceed). At that point, I became alive. I became a human being - with all that means, biologically and spiritually, all that means in terms of God and me. GIFT. G.I.F.T. This purely, solely, only, exclusively by mercy since prior to that, I did NOTHING. I thought nothing. I willed nothing. I sought nothing. I desired nothing. NO good works. GIFT. G.I.F.T. Mercy. M.E.R.C.Y. On January 23, 1988 - I was removed from my mother (C-Section) - unbreathing, unconscience - I had NOTHING to do with it. NOTHING. N.O.T.H.I.N.G. Gift. Mercy. No merits. No works. No will. Nothing in or from me. GIFT. MERCY. Someone ELSE is to be credited. Entirely. Wholly. Completely. MONERGISTIC. Life is mine - by grace, by mercy, from God, as a GIFT. I am a human being, with all that means - by grace, by mercy, from God, as a GIFT.

In the same way, God saved me (what Protestants mean here is justification - narrow sense). God GAVE me spiritual life, God GAVE me faith, God GAVE me the Holy Spirit.... God caused me to be born AGAIN, now not only with physical life but with spiritual life, now I am not only the child of my parents but a child of God. This CHANGES my relationship to God, as a result solely, only, exclusively because of God's mercy, grace, favor; solely, only, exclusively because of what CHRIST has done as THE Savior; solely, only, exclusively because God GAVE me the GIFT of faith in Christ as my Savior: Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. You know, the view the RCC decided to split Christianity over. We believe this is MONERGISTIC, because CHRIST is the Savior - not me, not you, not the Pope, not Mary, not the RC Denomination. I'm NOT the Savior - in whole or in part - because the job is taken and He didn't blow it. What makes me a CHRISTIAN is that God's merciful, gracious GIFT of faith means I'm looking to CHRIST as THE Savior, not in the mirror as all my Catholic teachers taught me to do, many Catholic sermons taught me to do, as Catholics here at CARM keep telling us we must do.



SECOND: Almost immediately after being born (well, maybe some months later, lol), my parents, my society and yes God called me to GROW. To mature. To become more loving, more caring, more righteous, more ethical. THIS is a process (unlike my conception). To LIVE the life I was GIVEN. THIS is synergistic (unlike conception). GROWING to be more God like. GROWING in the directions that my parents, my society, my God call me: "Thou shalt be HOLY just as the Lord God is holy." "Thou shalt be PERFECT just as your Father in Heaven is perfect." "LOVE in exactly the same way as Christ loved us on the Cross." High callings! I'm not "there" yet. I'm still GROWING (well, I'd LIKE to say always growing..... sometimes I'm not, sometimes I even retreat). And I do so in large part because of God's EMPOWERING, not due to some innate homo sapiens ability. Yes..... in a few cases, the Bible also calls this "grace" but the CONTEXT tells us this is different, here it means "strength" or "empowering". It is still ours by mercy (we don't DESIRE anything from Him), but here it means strength. This growing up, this discipleship, this CHRISTIAN-walk is something a CHRISTIAN does, not something that makes one a Christian; it is the RESULT of justification not the cause. My being nice to my neighbor is not what causes me to have physical life, having physical life enables me to be nice to my neighbor. What I do as a growing, maturing, developing man is not what makes me a homo sapien nor worthy of being given life.

It is NOT a case of SELF somehow taping into the "gas" God gives in order to slowly "save" self in a SYNERGISTIC process - almost never complete in one lifetime and so (as in Hinduism) more time is supplied to finish the job, salvation being a JOINT EFFORT: Jesus doing what He can (perhaps) but it's insufficent, inadequate, He fails as a Savior - so we come to the rescue to help save Him from being a failure by supplying what He could not: Jesus does what He could (but it's inadequate, a failure) so WE help Him but adding the really important part, the part that actually results in our salvation (albeit we won't get the job done before we die - thus the RCC now gives us Purgatory). In the view of Protestants, AT THE VERY LEAST, modern Catholicism is confusing DIFFERENT ISSUES: man and God, law and gospel, sancatification and justification - leading to the Christless, Crossless, Bloodless, merciless religion we hear as constant din from them; nearly indistingishable from Judaism and Islam, all boasting of SELF. Yes, I know, as YOU, post Trent popular Catholicism occasionally gets around to saying we get HELP. A point Jews and Muslims ALWAYS point out, always stress - but only a few Catholics do, and then usually only if pressured into it. But God HELPING us gain life is not the same as God GIVING us life. Jesus HELPING us to save ourselves is not the same thing as Jesus saving us. What I see is actually not a blending or confusing or entangling different issues, but the actual ABANDONMENT - entirely - of grace, mercy, Christ, the Cross, the Blood, in spite of such talk. The Gospel has simply been .... abandoned. What is left is just the growing part, the walk part, the maturing part. Christ AS SAVIOR has been lost (the key point of CHRISTianity!), all that is left is the Jewish, Muslim, Hindu point of getting closer to heaven each day by what WE do - with the HELP of God.


As I noted to you before, it is MY OPINION that IN SPITE OF the mess the RCC now teaches, the Gospel has not been killed. Because of the reading of Scripture..... because of the gospel proclaimed in the liturgy and often in hymns, because the ancient festivals continue..... Catholics STILL have some concept (however buried) of Christ as SAVIOR. IF..... oh what a big and difficult word that is...... IF you can help the Catholic untangle the MESS they've been taught, you can find they are actually Christians after all. I believe this to be the case; I believe Catholics generally ARE heaven-bound in spite of their denomination. Sad. Because the one issue a church should be MOST clear on, the MOST distinctively CHRISTian - that's the very doctrine Catholicism is weakest on, so blurry, so confused, so entangled, so NON-distinctively Christian.

WHY does modern, post-Trent popular Catholicism work so hard to entangle and confuse Law and Gospel, Sanctification with Justification, self with God? Well, originally just to avoid stopping the successful Indulgence sellers believing that poor Catholics would give more money to fill the RCC with gold if they believed this was salvic, if their coin ringing in the plate replaced the Blood pouring from the Savior on the Cross.... And of course, the devil seeks to destroy the Gospel... and he does it not by denying Jesus but by making Him as small and irrelevant as possible, self as big and important as possible... to TRY to make the Gospel amazingly complex, incredibly entangled, with Jesus really just one helper. The RCC likes to add that itself is the even more important helper.



Pax


- Josiah
 

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Josiah I have seen post after post pointing this out and also across threads, maybe for people like mayself it would be easier to just discuss the two together as it seems most of us are not as schooled as you
 

Josiah

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Josiah I have seen post after post pointing this out and also across threads, maybe for people like mayself it would be easier to just discuss the two together as it seems most of us are not as schooled as you


Thank you. :smile:



But when they are blended, entangled, twisted together - Jesus is lost, the Gospel destroyed, and Jesus is no longer the Savior. The whole point for entangling them is to make Christ small and self large. Friend, the WHOLE POINT of the Reformation and of Protestantism is that Jesus is the Savior - not self. By blending the two different issues, this can be undermined if not destroyed - which is what the Indulgence Sellers were doing that ignited the Reformation. Luther noted the heresy of blending these issues and the RCC chose to "side" with the Indulgence Sellers and to make Justification and Sanctification ONE synergistic, Pelagian process of self slowly saving self with the help of God.

The "heart" of Protestantism
is to protest that and to clearly proclaim: JESUS IS THE SAVIOR (not helper, not possibility maker and in no sense is self).... to point all to the Cross rather than the mirror. IMO, nothing is more important.... Christianity stands or falls over this.




.
 

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I see this talk about not following the letter of the law. Itakes me wonder what the law of the Spirit is for. Is it not to be followed?

The law of Moses was molested in our printed renderings it seems. But that doesn't mean that Christ doesn't come in/ with truth. The Spirit is to be both heard and followed it seems to me. Hearing alone does not save does it?

peace, I hope everyone is well.

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Following the law is not to gain us something. It does show love for God and our neighbor though.
 

popsthebuilder

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Following the law is not to gain us something. It does show love for God and our neighbor though.
On this we agree friend.

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Arsenios

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Josiah

Who Sanctifies?

You seem to be saying that someone other than God Sanctifies...

What is the basis of your understanding?


Arsenios
 
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Arsenios

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But when they [Justification and Sanctification] are blended, entangled, twisted together - Jesus is lost, the Gospel destroyed, and Jesus is no longer the Savior.

Well, they were blended, entangled, and twisted together in Jesus Christ...

You are treating them as if they are separated by some great "Wall of Partition"...

Do you have some Scripture that divides our Salvation in Christ into such an unbridgable division??

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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But when they [Justification and Sanctification] are blended, entangled, twisted together - Jesus is lost, the Gospel destroyed, and Jesus is no longer the Savior.

Well, they were blended, entangled, and twisted together in Jesus Christ...

You are treating them as if they are separated by some great "Wall of Partition"...

Do you have some Scripture that divides our Salvation in Christ into such an unbridgable division?

I have shown you the Scripture that shows the progression of Salvation from being Called by God to being Justified by God to being Glorified by God many times now, and you do not seem willing to address it...

The Church regards Justification without Sanctification as a self-contradiction... eg Right Relationship with God IS a Sanctified Relationship...

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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Your view ... suggests that
God has not decided the fate of each of us
until the Judgment
when he hears our pleas...
and that he then considers the evidence
like a judge in small claims court,
and makes a decision.
“Okay...you to eternal life,
him to hellfire.
Next case?!“

Please forgive me for butting in but... :)

I have wondered often if we might be more accurrate to say that
God does indeed know who is who,
and that it is we ourselves who do not know,
and that we are given this fallen life
so that we may not complain when the final judgement is given by God,
because we will be commended or condemned
according to our deeds...

According to ALL our deeds...

Arsenios
 
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MoreCoffee

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There's the Roman Catholic problem..... "Jesus is the Savior BUT......"

There's the problem with your reasoning. "yet" is not "but".
 

Josiah

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Josiah said:

Justification.... Sanctification....



There are TWO DIFFERENT issue here: Justification and Sanctification (narrow sense, both).

Let me use this analogy:

Justification. FIRST: On January 23, 1988, I was born. I was GIVEN life - the miracle, the wonderful, mysterious GIFT of life (we might agree that actually happened about 9 months earlier, but let's proceed). At that point, I became alive. I became a human being - with all that means, biologically and spiritually, all that means in terms of God and me. GIFT. G.I.F.T. This purely, solely, only, exclusively by mercy since prior to that, I did NOTHING. I thought nothing. I willed nothing. I sought nothing. I desired nothing. NO good works. GIFT. G.I.F.T. Mercy. M.E.R.C.Y. On January 23, 1988 - I was removed from my mother (C-Section) - unbreathing, unconscience - I had NOTHING to do with it. NOTHING. N.O.T.H.I.N.G. Gift. Mercy. No merits. No works. No will. Nothing in or from me. GIFT. MERCY. Someone ELSE is to be credited. Entirely. Wholly. Completely. MONERGISTIC. Life is mine - by grace, by mercy, from God, as a GIFT. I am a human being, with all that means - by grace, by mercy, from God, as a GIFT.

In the same way, God saved me (what Protestants mean here is justification - narrow sense). God GAVE me spiritual life, God GAVE me faith, God GAVE me the Holy Spirit.... God caused me to be born AGAIN, now not only with physical life but with spiritual life, now I am not only the child of my parents but a child of God. This CHANGES my relationship to God, as a result solely, only, exclusively because of God's mercy, grace, favor; solely, only, exclusively because of what CHRIST has done as THE Savior; solely, only, exclusively because God GAVE me the GIFT of faith in Christ as my Savior: Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. You know, the view the RCC decided to split Christianity over. We believe this is MONERGISTIC, because CHRIST is the Savior - not me, not you, not the Pope, not Mary, not the RC Denomination. I'm NOT the Savior - in whole or in part - because the job is taken and He didn't blow it. What makes me a CHRISTIAN is that God's merciful, gracious GIFT of faith means I'm looking to CHRIST as THE Savior, not in the mirror as all my Catholic teachers taught me to do, many Catholic sermons taught me to do, as Catholics here at CARM keep telling us we must do.



Sanctification. SECOND: Almost immediately after being born (well, maybe some months later, lol), my parents, my society and yes God called me to GROW. To mature. To become more loving, more caring, more righteous, more ethical. THIS is a process (unlike my conception). To LIVE the life I was GIVEN. THIS is synergistic (unlike conception). GROWING to be more God like. GROWING in the directions that my parents, my society, my God call me: "Thou shalt be HOLY just as the Lord God is holy." "Thou shalt be PERFECT just as your Father in Heaven is perfect." "LOVE in exactly the same way as Christ loved us on the Cross." High callings! I'm not "there" yet. I'm still GROWING (well, I'd LIKE to say always growing..... sometimes I'm not, sometimes I even retreat). And I do so in large part because of God's EMPOWERING, not due to some innate homo sapiens ability. Yes..... in a few cases, the Bible also calls this "grace" but the CONTEXT tells us this is different, here it means "strength" or "empowering". It is still ours by mercy (we don't DESIRE anything from Him), but here it means strength. This growing up, this discipleship, this CHRISTIAN-walk is something a CHRISTIAN does, not something that makes one a Christian; it is the RESULT of justification not the cause. My being nice to my neighbor is not what causes me to have physical life, having physical life enables me to be nice to my neighbor. What I do as a growing, maturing, developing man is not what makes me a homo sapien nor worthy of being given life.

It is NOT a case of SELF somehow taping into the "gas" God gives in order to slowly "save" self in a SYNERGISTIC process - almost never complete in one lifetime and so (as in Hinduism) more time is supplied to finish the job, salvation being a JOINT EFFORT: Jesus doing what He can (perhaps) but it's insufficent, inadequate, He fails as a Savior - so we come to the rescue to help save Him from being a failure by supplying what He could not: Jesus does what He could (but it's inadequate, a failure) so WE help Him but adding the really important part, the part that actually results in our salvation (albeit we won't get the job done before we die - thus the RCC
now gives us Purgatory). In the view of Protestants, AT THE VERY LEAST, modern Catholicism is confusing DIFFERENT ISSUES: man and God, law and gospel, sancatification and justification - leading to the Christless, Crossless, Bloodless, merciless religion we hear as constant din from them; nearly indistingishable from Judaism and Islam, all boasting of SELF. Yes, I know, as YOU, post Trent popular Catholicism occasionally gets around to saying we get HELP. A point Jews and Muslims ALWAYS point out, always stress - but only a few Catholics do, and then usually only if pressured into it. But God HELPING us gain life is not the same as God GIVING us life. Jesus HELPING us to save ourselves is not the same thing as Jesus saving us. What I see is actually not a blending or confusing or entangling different issues, but the actual ABANDONMENT - entirely - of grace, mercy, Christ, the Cross, the Blood, in spite of such talk. The Gospel has simply been .... abandoned. What is left is just the growing part, the walk part, the maturing part. Christ AS SAVIOR has been lost (the key point of CHRISTianity!), all that is left is the Jewish, Muslim, Hindu point of getting closer to heaven each day by what WE do - with the HELP of God.


As I noted to you before, it is MY OPINION that IN SPITE OF the mess the RCC now teaches, the Gospel has not been killed. Because of the reading of Scripture..... because of the gospel proclaimed in the liturgy and often in hymns, because the ancient festivals continue..... Catholics STILL have some concept (however buried) of Christ as SAVIOR. IF..... oh what a big and difficult word that is...... IF you can help the Catholic untangle the MESS they've been taught, you can find they are actually Christians after all. I believe this to be the case; I believe Catholics generally ARE heaven-bound in spite of their denomination. Sad. Because the one issue a church should be MOST clear on, the MOST distinctively CHRISTian - that's the very doctrine Catholicism is weakest on, so blurry, so confused, so entangled, so NON-distinctively Christian.

WHY does modern, post-Trent popular Catholicism work so hard to entangle and confuse Law and Gospel, Sanctification with Justification, self with God? Well, originally just to avoid stopping the successful Indulgence sellers believing that poor Catholics would give more money to fill the RCC with gold if they believed this was salvic, if their coin ringing in the plate replaced the Blood pouring from the Savior on the Cross.... And of course, the devil seeks to destroy the Gospel... and he does it not by denying Jesus but by making Him as small and irrelevant as possible, self as big and important as possible... to TRY to make the Gospel amazingly complex, incredibly entangled, with Jesus really just one helper. The RCC likes to add that itself is the even more important helper.



.

Who Sanctifies?



Do you want to talk about Justification or Sanctification?


Justification: Jesus saves/justifies us. Period. End of sentence. There is NO OTHER NAME under heaven (including mine or yours) by which any may be saved (not 1%, not 100%.... not now, not ever). In Justification, the WHO is Jesus. 100%.

Sanctification: Our Christian lives, our RESPONSE to Justification, our LIVING the life given to us, our acting according the faith given to us, our looking to the Holy Spirit given to us for direction and strength.... that is a synergistic process of God's empowering/directing and our actionizing/living/doing such - always imperfectly but growing.


Justification is ONLY and EXCLUSIVE the result of what Jesus alone did/does. Jesus is the Savior.
Sanctification (CHRISTIANS living a more Christ-like life via the faith, life and Holy Spirit GIVEN to them in Justification) is a synergistic process of the Justified (a Christian) applying the Holy Spirit's strength and abiding the Holy Spirit's direction.




.




.
 

Arsenios

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Do you want to talk about
Justification
or
Sanctification?

Yes...

Justification:
Jesus saves/justifies us.
Period.
End of sentence.
In Justification, the WHO is Jesus. 100%.

So Justification = Salvation = Christ given

Sanctification:
Our Christian lives,
our RESPONSE to Justification,
our LIVING the life given to us,
our acting according the faith given to us,
our looking to the Holy Spirit given to us for direction and strength....

And Sanctification is OUR DOING, with a little help from Jesus...

Got it, Thank-you...

We simply disagree...

Orthodoxy holds that God alone Sanctifies, just as God alone Justifies...

I think that just about clears it up...

Thank-you...

In your view Christians are God-Justified and self-Sanctified, the latter with a little help from God...

I never could quite get to the essence of your understanding...

It is very clear now, so thanks again...

Self-Sanctification has never been big in the Historic Church...

Arsenios
 

Josiah

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Yes...



So Justification = Salvation = Christ given



And Sanctification is OUR DOING, with a little help from Jesus...

Got it, Thank-you...

We simply disagree...

Orthodoxy holds that God alone Sanctifies, just as God alone Justifies...

I think that just about clears it up...

Thank-you...

In your view Christians are God-Justified and self-Sanctified, the latter with a little help from God...

I never could quite get to the essence of your understanding...

It is very clear now, so thanks again...

Self-Sanctification has never been big in the Historic Church...

Arsenios


Obviously.... and has stressed to you over and over again.... I'm using the term "Sanctification" in the sense of DISCIPLESHIP, what we think/say/do on this Earth AS CHRISTIANS, as those GIVEN faith - life - the Holy Spirit - a changed relationship (Justification).


These terms can be variously understood, but what I've done is what Luther and the Reformers did - go to ENORMOUS lengths to define EXACTLY what we mean by these terms.... and it is undeniable that the RCC understood EXACTLY what the Reformers meant by these terms - even if we didn't use them the same way. Correct, Protestants often use the words "salvation" and "justification - narrow" interchangably, but I admit the Bible doesn't always, which again is why I've gone to such lengths to tell you EXACTLY how Protestants mean these words.

If you've read any of my posts on this topic, you know that in theology, Protestants tend to use the word "JUSTIFICATION" in the technical sense of a changed relationship to God, an "enlivening" (as Luther put it), RECIEVING 'the free gift" (as the Bible insists) of life, faith, the Holy Spirit, justification ..... And we proclaim that Jesus earned that gift and gives that gift, that Jesus is the Savior (100%). This is the Protestant proclamation that so horrified the Catholic Church. And yes, it fully and completely knew what Luther (and the other Reformers) meant by this.... they understood Luther was affirming the Council of Orange and denouncing Pelagianism and synergism, and thus was denouncing the theology of the Indulgence sellers. The RCC just (eventually) chose to "side" with the theology of the Indulgence Sellers and denounce Luther's stance that Jesus is the Savior.

If you've read any of my posts on this topic, you know that what follows this "justification" has never been in dispute (at least with Rome, I don't know about the East). Both 'sides' went to great lengths to be very clear about this: Our dispute is not at all about what a CHRISTIAN is called to do or how he does it, no dispute about CHRISTIAN discipleship, no dispute on the whole issue of Sanctification. This, we agreed, is a process of our becoming more Christ-like, and yes, it IS synergistic in that while it is entirely empowered by the Holy Spirit (the GIFT we receive in Justification) and directed by the Holy Spirit (the GIFT we recieve in Justification).... and is the "living out" of the LIFE (the GIFT we receive in Justification), it still involves our will and action. But again, no one has ever disagreed on this (at least in the West). The sole issue.... the ENORMOUS issue that split Western Christianity.... was Luther's stance that Jesus is the Savior, it is God who justifies us as a free gift.... we don't..... not now, not ever.... not 1% not 100%. THAT.... that Jesus IS THE SAVIOR was what the dispute is and has been aboiut for 500 years. I don't know where the East is on this because while you've indicated you fully agree with Protestants you've also said you fully disagree with it, and you keep rebuking any Protestant here who indicates a believe that Jesus is the Savior (and not self).
 

Arsenios

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Obviously.... and has stressed to you over and over again.... I'm using the term "Sanctification" in the sense of DISCIPLESHIP, what we think/say/do on this Earth AS CHRISTIANS, as those GIVEN faith - life - the Holy Spirit - a changed relationship (Justification).


These terms can be variously understood, but what I've done is what Luther and the Reformers did - go to ENORMOUS lengths to define EXACTLY what we mean by these terms.... and it is undeniable that the RCC understood EXACTLY what the Reformers meant by these terms - even if we didn't use them the same way. Correct, Protestants often use the words "salvation" and "justification - narrow" interchangably, but I admit the Bible doesn't always, which again is why I've gone to such lengths to tell you EXACTLY how Protestants mean these words.

If you've read any of my posts on this topic, you know that in theology, Protestants tend to use the word "JUSTIFICATION" in the technical sense of a changed relationship to God, an "enlivening" (as Luther put it), RECIEVING 'the free gift" (as the Bible insists) of life, faith, the Holy Spirit, justification ..... And we proclaim that Jesus earned that gift and gives that gift, that Jesus is the Savior (100%). This is the Protestant proclamation that so horrified the Catholic Church. And yes, it fully and completely knew what Luther (and the other Reformers) meant by this.... they understood Luther was affirming the Council of Orange and denouncing Pelagianism and synergism, and thus was denouncing the theology of the Indulgence sellers. The RCC just (eventually) chose to "side" with the theology of the Indulgence Sellers and denounce Luther's stance that Jesus is the Savior.

If you've read any of my posts on this topic, you know that what follows this "justification" has never been in dispute (at least with Rome, I don't know about the East). Both 'sides' went to great lengths to be very clear about this: Our dispute is not at all about what a CHRISTIAN is called to do or how he does it, no dispute about CHRISTIAN discipleship, no dispute on the whole issue of Sanctification. This, we agreed, is a process of our becoming more Christ-like, and yes, it IS synergistic in that while it is entirely empowered by the Holy Spirit (the GIFT we receive in Justification) and directed by the Holy Spirit (the GIFT we recieve in Justification).... and is the "living out" of the LIFE (the GIFT we receive in Justification), it still involves our will and action. But again, no one has ever disagreed on this (at least in the West). The sole issue.... the ENORMOUS issue that split Western Christianity.... was Luther's stance that Jesus is the Savior, it is God who justifies us as a free gift.... we don't..... not now, not ever.... not 1% not 100%. THAT.... that Jesus IS THE SAVIOR was what the dispute is and has been aboiut for 500 years. I don't know where the East is on this because while you've indicated you fully agree with Protestants you've also said you fully disagree with it, and you keep rebuking any Protestant here who indicates a believe that Jesus is the Savior (and not self).

Thank-you...

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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fwiw, Josiah, the East understands the course of Salvation by God to begin with the Call of God...
Then to proceed through Baptism into Christ to the Gift of Justification and Sanctification by God...
Which proceeds to Glorification by God...

All this upon this earth in this life...

The Call of God is unto repentance leading to Baptism...

Justification is unto the running of the race...

Glorification is living in God's Will...

Hence Salvation is progressive on earth...

We are Saved when we are Called by God unto repentance...
We are further Saved when we are Justified by God in Baptism following repentance...
We are then further Saved when we are Glorified by God overcoming evil poweers and principalities...

That is about as high as we can go this side of the Age to Come in this life...

Your issues with Rome have no place here in this understanding...

And we never sell indulgences...

Indulge me on this one... :)

Arsenios
 
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MennoSota

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fwiw, Josiah, the East understands the course of Salvation by God to begin with the Call of God...
Then to proceed through Baptism into Christ to the Gift of Justification and Sanctification by God...
Which proceeds to Glorification by God...

All this upon this earth in this life...

The Call of God is unto repentance leading to Baptism...

Justification is unto the running of the race...

Glorification is living in God's Will...

Hence Salvation is progressive on earth...

We are Saved when we are Called by God unto repentance...
We are further Saved when we are Justified by God in Baptism following repentance...
We are then further Saved when we are Glorified by God overcoming evil poweers and principalities...

That is about as high as we can go this side of the Age to Come in this life...

Your issues with Rome have no place here in this understanding...

And we never sell indulgences...

Arsenios
So...salvation by works...just like the Judaisers whom Paul condemned.
 

Arsenios

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So...salvation by works...just like the Judaisers whom Paul condemned.

Salvation by God through the Works of the Faith Christ discipled to His Apostles...

Which presents apparent apoplectic cognitive dissonance in these here parts methinks! :)

The Judiazers wanted your foreskin...

We don't...

You will probably have to trust me on this one! :)

Arsenios
 

MoreCoffee

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MennoSota, it is salvation by God through faith with works.
 

popsthebuilder

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So...salvation by works...just like the Judaisers whom Paul condemned.
It was their hypocrisy that was condemned. Not abiding by the Spirit or the law of the Spirit written on the hearts and minds of the believers.

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