Refuting Catholic Church bogus claim of succession...

Albion

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Once again, though, I think thePapal office and Apostolic Succession are being comingled in this discussion. There are a number of churches which continue the practice of Apostolic Succession whereas talk of the Pope takes us straight to a single denomination, the Roman Catholic Church.
 

Arsenios

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It was a good explanation Albion.
The church also wouldn't allow the people to actually own a bible for a time, at this time only certain men could preach from it.
In my opinion and also men like John Wycliffe and Martin Luther, the church slowly but surely started taking away from the word and adding on to the word likewise, causing such great damage that the church has still to repair a great amount.
So this succession was a failure and thus not a great example of being learned men of the apostle Peter.

Well, as a human organization, any can go off the rails...

Orthodoxy CAN turn into a dog and pony show of fancy vestments, crowns, and ceremonies masquerading as holiness...

And there certainly are times when it has done so...

Yet the labors themselves are so great that most, if not moving in God's Grace, burn out and crash... Taking on a parish with its life issues is a big deal and a broad spectrum... And burn-out is a time of sober assessment and re-purposing and consecration with different strategies... Yet the rhythm of the Divine Services itself, together with one's personal issues, and the labors and teachings, transform lives, both clerical and lay... I have watched this in others, and most certainly within myself... It is wondrous to see, and every so often, someone takes a hard right and lights up... And some fall, and most live lives of marriage and family and children and some stability, as best they can, working to be decent persons with morning and evening prayers...

There were not printing presses for the first fifteen hundred years of the Faith of Christ - Bibles were hand copied... No one could afford one... Yet they were read daily to a culture that was illiterate, relying on good memory, to acquire the written... This is how God started His Body on earth... it was not about what you read in the Bible, but was all about what you do in your heart...

It still is...


Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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Once again, though, I think thePapal office and Apostolic Succession are being comingled in this discussion. There are a number of churches which continue the practice of Apostolic Succession whereas talk of the Pope takes us straight to a single denomination, the Roman Catholic Church.

Indeed...

What do you take from Elijah's passing of his Mantle to Elisha?


Arsenios
 

MoreCoffee

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Christ said to Peter And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. Matthew 16:18 - to whom has it ever been said You are Peter (that is Rock), and upon this rock I will build my church? It would also be to violate the Scripture to deny that Saint Peter was singled out in this verse. It is necessary that the particular word in this passage have its particular meaning, so that no word of scripture may be treated as useless and this passage is not without mystery but isn't it true that so much of Scriptures is mysterious.
 

Albion

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He also said, in the same passage, that Peter was Satan. Is the Roman Catholic Church therefore Satanic since it worships Peter so?

That would be the logical conclusion to be drawn by anyone taking the simplistic approach to the Holy Scriptures your interpretation of Matthew 16:18 demonstrated.
 

MoreCoffee

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He also said, in the same passage, that Peter was Satan.

Well no, he didn't say "You, Peter, are Satan." Sloppy reading makes for terrible theology. That explains your theology adequately.

Go after me, Satan.says the scripture. The words may signify, begone from me; but out of respect due to the expositions of the ancient fathers, who would have these words to signify come after me, or follow me, I have put, with the Rheims translation, go after me. Satan is the same as an adversary: and is here applied to Peter, however, unknowingly or innocently, raised an opposition against the will of God, against the glory of Jesus, against the redemption of mankind, and against the destruction of the devil's kingdom. He did not understand that there was nothing more glorious than to make of one's life a sacrifice to God.

Thou dost not, i.e. your judgement in this particular is not conformable with that of God. Hence our erring separated brethren conclude that Christ did not, in calling him the rock in the preceding verses, appoint him the solid and permanent foundation of his Church. This conclusion, however, is not true, because, as Saint Augustine, and many other ancient theologians, affirm Peter could fall into error in points regarding morals and facts, though not in defining or deciding on points of faith. Moreover, Saint Peter was not, as Saint Jerome says, appointed the pillar of the Church till after Christ's resurrection.

And it was not till the night before Christ suffered that he said to Peter: Behold, Satan has desired to have you; but I have prayed for you, that "your faith fail not," and you being once converted confirm your brethren. (Luke 22:31)
 

Albion

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Well no, he didn't say "You, Peter, are Satan."

He called him Satan. He didn't merely liken him to Satan.

So by your way of thinking, Jesus meant that Peter was Satan.
 

MoreCoffee

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He called him Satan. He didn't merely liken him to Satan.
That is not clear from the passage; the Lord likely refers to the spirit of the words uttered innocently by saint Peter, who did not know the implications of his genuine concern for the safety of his Lord. But many Protestants are blinded to what the passage says by a desire to denigrate saint Peter for the sake of upholding the erroneous beliefs about the Church which is one rather than divided as are Protestant denominations one from another.
So by your way of thinking, Jesus meant that Peter was Satan.

You fail to read accurately so you reach erroneous conclusions. Pray for wisdom, God grants it to those who ask in faith without wavering.
 

Albion

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That is not clear from the passage

But at the same time, you want us to think that the even less clear passage in which Christ speaks of Peter as rock is clearcut in meaning that he--and unmentioned and unidentified successors of Peter throughout time to come--are supposed to rule the universal church and be infallible to boot! How ridiculous.
 

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How ridiculous.

Nevertheless Christ said to Peter And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. Matthew 16:18 - to whom has it ever been said You are Peter (that is Rock), and upon this rock I will build my church? It would be to violate the Scripture to deny that Saint Peter was singled out in this verse. It is necessary that the particular word in this passage have its particular meaning, so that no word of scripture may be treated as useless and this passage is not without mystery but isn't it true that so much of Scriptures is mysterious.
 

Andrew

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Nevertheless Christ said to Peter And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. Matthew 16:18 - to whom has it ever been said You are Peter (that is Rock), and upon this rock I will build my church? It would be to violate the Scripture to deny that Saint Peter was singled out in this verse. It is necessary that the particular word in this passage have its particular meaning, so that no word of scripture may be treated as useless and this passage is not without mystery but isn't it true that so much of Scriptures is mysterious.
He is building his Church on all who confess with their tongue that Jesus is Lord. Paul says that those who confess that Jesus is not Lord or didn't come in the flesh is of the Anti-Christ.
Peter is a great example of a man with such little faith and always questioning Jesus and screwing up (and he unlike us had seen the Son of Man), he made Peter righteous(!!) because hell did not prevail against the believer (his rock) Peter, Jesus returned and forgave Peter for denying him 3 times by asking him if he loved him 3 times.
 

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He is building his Church on all who confess with their tongue that Jesus is Lord. Paul says that those who confess that Jesus is not Lord or didn't come in the flesh is of the Anti-Christ.
Peter is a great example of a man with such little faith and always questioning Jesus and screwing up (and he unlike us had seen the Son of Man), he made Peter righteous(!!) because hell did not prevail against the believer (his rock) Peter, Jesus returned and forgave Peter for denying him 3 times by asking him if he loved him 3 times.

Nice little story there but it doesn't explain the text because it is a make believe story to help people with aberrant theology feel cosy when verses scare them.
 

Andrew

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Nice little story there but it doesn't explain the text because it is a make believe story to help people with aberrant theology feel cosy when verses scare them.
lol doh! shucks you caught me!
This whole campaign of mine has been exposed and from the get-go... I would have gotten away with it too if it weren't for you meddling Apostolics!
Grrrrrrrrrr....
 

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lol doh! shucks you caught me!
This whole campaign of mine has been exposed and from the get-go... I would have gotten away with it too if it weren't for you meddling Apostolics!
Grrrrrrrrrr....

No, you would answer to the judge of all the living and the dead. No one escapes his view nor fools him with false stories. Count it all joy that you've seen the truth even if you reject it today perhaps tomorrow or another day, God willing, you will have another chance and make a better decision.
 

Andrew

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No, you would answer to the judge of all the living and the dead. No one escapes his view nor fools him with false stories. Count it all joy that you've seen the truth even if you reject it today perhaps tomorrow or another day, God willing, you will have another chance and make a better decision.
Christ did not pass down kingship nor any succession of individuals to preach his word, we are all as his disciples told to spread the good news of his Word... how is this possibly wrong??
 

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Christ did not pass down kingship nor any succession of individuals to preach his word
If this were so then no pastors exist nor ever existed and the apostles were charlatans and the church, every church, and every man is a liar against God and an accuser against the saints. But what you say is not so. For this Christians are thankful to God who in his mercy sent some to be apostles, some to be prophets and pastors. These men work in the fields of harvest and with the help of God and the angels reap an abundant crop of souls for the Lord to receive grace and salvation. Pray that you may be worthy to stand before Christ. It is a worthy prayer which I command to you.

, we are all as his disciples told to spread the good news of his Word... how is this possibly wrong??
 

Andrew

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If this were so then no pastors exist nor ever existed and the apostles were charlatans and the church, every church, and every man is a liar against God and an accuser against the saints. But what you say is not so. For this Christians are thankful to God who in his mercy sent some to be apostles, some to be prophets and pastors. These men work in the fields of harvest and with the help of God and the angels reap an abundant crop of souls for the Lord to receive grace and salvation. Pray that you may be worthy to stand before Christ. It is a worthy prayer which I command to you.
Church pastors, preachers and priest etc do not wait for a man to die to take his place
 

Arsenios

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Kagw de soi legw
But I am also saying to you

oti su ei Petrov
that you are Petros

kai epi tauth th petra
and upon this very petra

oikodomhsw mou thn ekklhsian
I will build My Church

kai pulai adou ou katisxusousin authv
And the gates of Hades shall not overcome Her...

The passage gives the Naming of Peter by Christ...
The genders differ, and the antecedent feminine noun is obscure...

Just before, Christ had asked Simon Who he thought Jesus IS...
And Simon answered
"You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God..."
And Christ said:
"Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona:
for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee,
but my Father which is in heaven."

Whereupon Christ immediately names him Peter...
Because he confessed what God the Father had revealed to him...
Both words, confession and revelation, are feminine nouns...
God's Church is built on God's Revelation to men who confess Him as the Christ, the Son of the Living God...
That is the petra upon which the Church is built,
And that is why Christ named the chief disciple Petros...

Pointedly here, the Church is not built upon men who read the Bible and are thereby persuaded...
It is built by the direct Revelation from God of Who Christ IS in the flesh...

Arsenios
 

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Church pastors, preachers and priest etc do not wait for a man to die to take his place

Really? You have some odd ideas about pastors. The Osteen family, the "Crystal Cathedral" Schuller family, and many others inherit their pastoral office in the family line. A local Pentecostal church had a senior pastor who handed on his seat to his son - later the church split over the matter.
 

Andrew

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Really? You have some odd ideas about pastors. The Osteen family, the "Crystal Cathedral" Schuller family, and many others inherit their pastoral office in the family line. A local Pentecostal church had a senior pastor who handed on his seat to his son - later the church split over the matter.
not the same thing
 
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