Purgatory

Andrew

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I don't think I ever believed it existed.





I no longer am. But a Catholic is one who docilicly submits to whatever the Church officially teaches. Technically, the Pope is not permitted to teach contrary to the Tradition of the Church (although he can "bump it up" in terms of status = as was the case with Purgatory), so if the Pope spoke ex-cathredra and denounced Purgatory, hum, "Houston, we have a problem" - the Pope can't do that. I don't recall at the moment what status Purgatory has... but I think it is "de fide" and so cannot be denied, even the Pope can't do it. As I think I commented earlier, what I've been told is the Catholic way of dealing with something of binding status that is no longer accepted is to 1) Redefine the words of the proclaimation so that it now "means" something very different (if "up" was wrong, just redefine the word "up" to mean "down") or 2) Just stop teaching it. IMO, perhaps we are witnessing #2 with "Purgatory"

As I noted, I'm "okay" with the Eastern OPINION (not binding, not doctrine) of a MIRACLE that God does in the "wink of an eye" at the moment of death as we are "carried to Abraham's bosom" that our bodies are made holy (no place, no time, no punishment) but that's not Purgatory and it's not dogma. But while I am "okay" with that OPINION, I don't share it - but it is a way to deal with some Scriptures.





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Luther did write about his belief in purgatory to an extent that if God willing such a place exists than may his prayers be known earlier on as to not continuously exceed in them without need (something along those lines)... which I agree with him on this.

Which also Jews have and still do offer prayers for their passed loved ones in order for them (the dead) to obtain a better resurrection.. I myself find it a most thoughtful hope to pray for a passed loved one or friend who died an unbeliever, I do believe such thoughtfulness is pleasing to God, not that it does any good outside His extended mercy, but that it IS good (as opposed to certainty of knowing what God has judged a person).
 
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Albion

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Luther did write about his belief in purgatory to an extent that if God willing such a place exists than may his prayers be known earlier on as to not continuously exceed in them without need (something along those lines)... which I agree with him on this.
This is typical of Luther's style of speaking; and today's readers often mistake it for an affirmation of whatever is being discussed.
Which also Jews have and still do offer prayers for their passed loved ones in order for them (the dead) to obtain a better resurrection..
Praying for God's mercy upon those who have passed into the next life is NOT even close to being agreement with the idea of there being a Purgatory.
I myself find it a most thoughtful hope to pray for a passed loved one or friend who died an unbeliever, I do believe such thoughtfulness is pleasing to God, not that it does any good outside His extended mercy, but that is IS good (as opposed to certainty of knowing what God has judged a person).
Yes, and that is quite a common view among Christians of all sorts of different denominations. However, the topic here is "Purgatory" and that doesn't deal with Purgatory, let alone show it to be real.
 

Andrew

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This is typical of Luther's style of speaking; and today's readers often mistake it for an affirmation of whatever is being discussed.

Praying for God's mercy upon those who have passed into the next life is NOT even close to being agreement with the idea of there being a Purgatory.

Yes, and that is quite a common view among Christians of all sorts of different denominations. However, the topic here is "Purgatory" and that doesn't deal with Purgatory, let alone show it to be real.

Luther was speaking on purgatory then but purgatory today has me completely up in arms as to what is exactly it is or even means!
 

Albion

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As has been said before, when the church decides to ditch some teaching but not admit to having made a change, one of two things happens--the old wording gets new meanings or else the whole idea is allowed to die a quiet death. In the case of Purgatory, both are underway.

An example of the first point is the meaning of the word. "Purgatory" refers to the soul being purged, through suffering formerly described by the RCC as the same as what is experienced in Hell, but now "PURGatory" is described as a place or state in which there's no purging, but only purifying! That sounds much more appealing.

An example of the second approach is the way church publications and clergy, even the Pope, explain Purgatory now. It's nothing specific, although the historic Purgatory was loaded with specifics about why, how, who, how long, for what, and so on. The soul is quickly reoriented to its new circumstances and made ready for Heaven. That's about it.
 

pinacled

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Luther was speaking on purgatory then but purgatory today has me completely up in arms as to what is exactly it is or even means!
Lying about luther will improve worldly wealth and a seat next to mammon
 

Stephen

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If the Pope declares that purgatory no longer exists would you still believe it does? If not then would you even be a Catholic?

As Josiah said the Pope could not declare Purgatory does not exist.
It was dogmatically defined at the Council of Trent.
CANON XXX.-If any one saith, that, after the grace of Justification has been received, to every penitent sinner the guilt is remitted, and the debt of eternal punishment is blotted out in such wise, that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment to be discharged either in this world, or in the next in Purgatory, before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened (to him); let him be anathema.
(Session 16)
 

Stephen

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They Key thing you said was "Orthodox Jewish practices, which branched off from the Old Testament religion" Most of these practices came into being after the era of the Prophets and don't line up with Old Testament teachings. These Jewish practices/beliefs could be part of the doctrines of men and the "Jewish Fables" and commandments of men mentioned in Titus 1:14. The fact that Jewish mystics practiced something doesn't make it orthodox. If they believe or command something that wasn't in the Law or the prophets then the Jews are in error. And we can see from the Jewish history, they had a nasty habit of going after other Gods and practices. If purgatory was handed on from Jews then it was handed on from Jews who were in error. Remember, even in the 1st Century there was great debate among Jews as to what happens after death. Some believed in the Resurrection from the dead and others didn't. Saying that (some) Jews believe something doesn't mean that it is true.

And saying you believe in something or dom't believe in something doesn't mean it's true.

The point I was making was that purgatory does not come from paganism It was present is Judaism.
I said:
Rabbi Shammai (50 BC - AD 30), one of the two main teachers of early rabbinical Judaism, also is on record as having interpreted Zechariah 13:9 as referring to a state of purification after death. Isaiah 66:15-16 and Malachi 3:2-3 were also interpreted in rabbinic literature as referring to the purgatorial process.

That is before Jesus started preaching. So there is no need to reach back into paganism as an origin for the belief.

We could debate whether 2 Maccabees is inspired scripture but even if it was there are issues with the Catholic interpretation.

First, it is descriptive not prescriptive. It doesn't comment on if what they were doing was orthodox or commanded. It simply points out what they did. No where in Scripture are we commanded to pray for the souls in purgatory. No where is scripture are souls in purgatory ever mentioned. Just because some Jews believed that that praying for their dead friends might help them doesn't mean what they was doing was orthodox.
As with my comment above it shows a practice in Judaism. So there is no need to reach back into paganism as an origin for the belief.

Second, they prayed for people who committed idolatry, which as I understand it, the Catholic church considers to be a mortal sin. In other words, (according to Catholic doctrine) they were wasting their time. In which case, using them as an example to follow if foolhardy.
Only God can judge what is mortal sin for a particular person. Judas could not know that so he did what he could "and they turned to prayer, beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out,"


What actions/decisions can a dead person make concerning their eternal destination? What future behavior is purgatory trying to correct?
As Paul says:Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamour and slander be put away from you, with all malice” (Eph 4:31).

As I said in post #47
Love never ends says St. Paul (1 Cor 13:8). In heaven what else will there be. So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.. (1 Cor 13:13), and in heaven there will be no need of faith for we will be in the presence of God; there will be no need for hope because we will have attained all that we hoped for.

All that we will need is perfect love, and indeed nothing else; indeed love is “the bond of perfection”. All else besides love; that which detracts from love; that is less than love must be left behind. There can be no anger, hate, lust, greed, jealousy, pride, covetousness, or any such thing. It is not enough to “cover up” such things, they must be expunged, burnt out by the refiners fire (Mal 3:2).

Purgatory is seen as a purification process where the disorders in us caused by sin are healed, where the lingering attachments to sin, such as pride, anger lust etc., and “bad attitudes” are cleared out, so that we can be pure and holy and fit to be in the presence of God. It is God’s mercy to allow us to be purified before we enter his presence, as we could not bear to be in his presence unless we are pure and holy. Without it we could not achieve the holiness necessary to enter heaven - "the holiness without which no one will see the Lord” (Heb 12:14)

And in post #58
This purification is being made holy. It is a work of God, not our work. But we have to co-operate with God and do what we can to assist the process. It is not a passive thing. We can do this now in this part of our life, or we can do it after death in purgatory. But we must be fully holy before we can enter heaven.

What actions/decisions can a dead person make concerning their eternal destination? What future behavior is purgatory trying to correct?
Why do you think fire/suffering is required to remove sin? All Jesus had to do to forgive sins was say "Your sins are forgiven". Why doesn't Christ just speak forgiveness for all our sins instead of putting us through the fires of purgatory?
This purification is not about forgiveness of sin. It is about rectifying the (secondary) consequences of sin.

As I said in post #47
It is about the secondary consequences of sin not the primary consequence of sin. The primary consequence of sin is a rupture (partial or total) of communion with God. It is the healing of that rupture that Jesus atoned for on the cross.

We are born into a sinful condition.
“Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.” (Psalm 51:5).

During our lives we pile sin upon sin.
“If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” (1Jn 1:8).

Or as St. Paul put it
“Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I of myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.” (Rom 7:25)

Unless we do something about them the consequences of sin accumulate and we are told that nothing unclean may enter heaven (Rev 21:27). "


But Christ is our righteousness which we receive by faith. We aren't holy because we don't sin, we are Holy because Christ makes us holy through His Sacrifice on our behalf. We seek personal holiness out of love and devotion to Christ, not in order to be achieve ultimate salvation and hopes of avoiding purgatory. If it is in order to be saved then eternal life isn't a free gift but is something we earn through our effort. If that is the case then what was the point of Christ coming for us? We could have tried to earn salvation by keeping the Mosaic Law. We would have failed but it is not really different that trying to earn merit by keeping the fast, festivals, and sacraments of Catholicism. Both turn the free gift of eternal life in Christ into wages to be earned. Which is exactly the kind of thing Paul was warning us about in Romans 3: 1-6
Ah! The couch potato Christian. “I have nothing to do but lie here and Christ will do it all.”

Not for the couch potato to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling (Phil 2:12)

Not for the couch potato to run the race (1Cor 9:24-27)

Not for the couch potato to be rich in good works (1Tim 6:18) or

Nor are the couch potato which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works.(Ti 3:8)

But the couch potato is one whose end shall be according to their works (2Cor 11:15)

Try reading Mt 25:31-46 for the fate of those who think faith is enough and no effort is required by them.

I believe it is the opposite. It ties our salvation to our heart that has been changed from a heart of stone to a heart of flesh, while giving love and grace to us in our struggles against the temptations of this world. It takes the burden of "performance" off the table and replaces it with a loving relationship with the Father through the Son empowered by the Spirit.

You are claiming that sin has no consequences.
 

Stephen

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@Lanman87
Some scripture that you have not addressed.

From post #40
6. If we are not wholly clean, holy and perfect there must be some process whereby we can be cleansed and made holy and perfect. Scripture tells us there is.
In Hebrews 11 the writer describes the faith of many of those in the Old Testament, men and women, from Abel onwards. At the end he writes:
"And all these, though well attested by their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had foreseen something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect."

These people were all dead, but they had not been made perfect. They had not received what was promised (heaven).
Then he writes:
"Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us" (12:1). These faithful people of the Old Testament are now witnessing our struggles. This can only be from heaven. But you have to be perfect to be in heaven. So those that were not perfect must have been made perfect

And he confirms this later in the chapter.
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect(Heb 12:22-23)

These just men were not perfect when they died but they are now. This shows that there is a way, a process, whereby the spirits of just men can be made perfect after death.
 

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@Lanman87
Some scripture that you have not addressed.

From post #40
6. If we are not wholly clean, holy and perfect there must be some process whereby we can be cleansed and made holy and perfect. Scripture tells us there is.
In Hebrews 11 the writer describes the faith of many of those in the Old Testament, men and women, from Abel onwards. At the end he writes:
"And all these, though well attested by their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had foreseen something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect."

These people were all dead, but they had not been made perfect. They had not received what was promised (heaven).
Then he writes:
"Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us" (12:1). These faithful people of the Old Testament are now witnessing our struggles. This can only be from heaven. But you have to be perfect to be in heaven. So those that were not perfect must have been made perfect

And he confirms this later in the chapter.
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect(Heb 12:22-23)

These just men were not perfect when they died but they are now. This shows that there is a way, a process, whereby the spirits of just men can be made perfect after death.
It seems odd to me that you cannot recognize the accomplishments of the life of Christ as the deciding factor that propels those of the OT into the covenant of the new. Those souls of Hebrews 11 could not be made perfect because the perfection of the law, which is Christ, was not yet made manifest; the acceptance of the Father had not yet been given as the first fruit offering, and wasn't given until He ascended with the offering. Once that had been accomplished , as the Risen Lord, He, as the sactifier, became the means of sanctification.
 

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It seems odd to me that you cannot recognize the accomplishments of the life of Christ as the deciding factor that propels those of the OT into the covenant of the new. Those souls of Hebrews 11 could not be made perfect because the perfection of the law, which is Christ, was not yet made manifest; the acceptance of the Father had not yet been given as the first fruit offering, and wasn't given until He ascended with the offering. Once that had been accomplished , as the Risen Lord, He, as the sactifier, became the means of sanctification.

Thank you for your personal and fallible opinion on this matter.
 

Lanman87

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Ah! The couch potato Christian. “I have nothing to do but lie here and Christ will do it all.”
Christ does do it all. Our response is accepting what He has done for us and then living in a loving relationship with Him, which is how we work out our salvation(that we have already received) as God works in us, it is how we run the race, and why we seek to live a life to give glory to God. The old hymn says "Jesus Paid it All, all to Him I owe". Everything we do as Christian is a result of what Christ did for us. Not things we do in order to receive what Christ did for us.

These just men were not perfect when they died but they are now. This shows that there is a way, a process, whereby the spirits of just men can be made perfect after death.
I have dealt with all of those scriptures when I said the merits of Christ make us Holy and Perfect, not our own merit.
"And all these, though well attested by their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had foreseen something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect."

This can only be from heaven. But you have to be perfect to be in heaven. So those that were not perfect must have been made perfect
They are in heaven because of their faithfulness to God and His Grace and forgiveness, just as we will be. There was no need for purgatory for them just as their will be no need for purgatory for us. By faith, they received the righteousness of God.


And he confirms this later in the chapter.
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect(Heb 12:22-23)
Yes, we are made perfect by the Sacrifice of Christ. We are made perfect by the work of Christ, not our own work.
 

Stephen

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Christ does do it all. Our response is accepting what He has done for us and then living in a loving relationship with Him, which is how we work out our salvation(that we have already received) as God works in us, it is how we run the race, and why we seek to live a life to give glory to God. The old hymn says "Jesus Paid it All, all to Him I owe". Everything we do as Christian is a result of what Christ did for us. Not things we do in order to receive what Christ did for us.
You ignored the scripture I gave.

I have dealt with all of those scriptures when I said the merits of Christ make us Holy and Perfect, not our own merit.



They are in heaven because of their faithfulness to God and His Grace and forgiveness, just as we will be. There was no need for purgatory for them just as their will be no need for purgatory for us. By faith, they received the righteousness of God.



Yes, we are made perfect by the Sacrifice of Christ. We are made perfect by the work of Christ, not our own work.

Thank you for your opinions.
 

Lanman87

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The point I was making was that purgatory does not come from paganism It was present is Judaism.
I said:
A Judaism that had strayed from the Orthodox belief of "what we call" the Old Testament. Just because some Rabbi came up with something (probably because he was influenced by Greek pagan philosophy himself) 50 years before Christ doesn't make it true. As a matter of fact I would put it under the Jewish "Traditions of Men" that we are warned to not follow.

This purification is not about forgiveness of sin. It is about rectifying the (secondary) consequences of sin.
Sins that are forgiven have no eternal consequences. All temporal consequences of sin end when our life is over. We are made perfect by Christ and we are kept perfect by Christ.

For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. Hebrews 10:14
Notice that perfection is paste tense and for all time and that it Christ doing the perfecting. Not us and not purgatory.
 

Albion

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As Josiah said the Pope could not declare Purgatory does not exist.
It was dogmatically defined at the Council of Trent.
CANON XXX.-If any one saith, that, after the grace of Justification has been received, to every penitent sinner the guilt is remitted, and the debt of eternal punishment is blotted out in such wise, that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment to be discharged either in this world, or in the next in Purgatory, before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened (to him); let him be anathema.
(Session 16)
That goes to the point that was made earlier. The church cannot simply declare that what it had taught for over half a millennium is not true after all, especially as it was affirmed in several church councils (as you noted in the case of Trent). Therefore, it is still affirmed in principle but described entirely differently from before, thereby rendering it unimportant.
 

Stephen

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A Judaism that had strayed from the Orthodox belief of "what we call" the Old Testament. Just because some Rabbi came up with something (probably because he was influenced by Greek pagan philosophy himself) 50 years before Christ doesn't make it true. As a matter of fact I would put it under the Jewish "Traditions of Men" that we are warned to not follow.
Opinion not fact.

Sins that are forgiven have no eternal consequences. All temporal consequences of sin end when our life is over. We are made perfect by Christ and we are kept perfect by Christ.

For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. Hebrews 10:14
Notice that perfection is paste tense and for all time and that it Christ doing the perfecting. Not us and not purgatory.

That quote has two parts.
The first part For by a single offering he has perfected for all time refers to Christ's offering being for all time. It does not need to be repeated as the offering under the Old Law (see verse 12)
The second part is those who are being sanctified. Where are they being sanctified ? - on earth and (if necessary) in purgatory.
 

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Opinion not fact.



That quote has two parts.
The first part For by a single offering he has perfected for all time refers to Christ's offering being for all time. It does not need to be repeated as the offering under the Old Law (see verse 12)
The second part is those who are being sanctified. Where are they being sanctified ? - on earth and (if necessary) in purgatory.
On earth as it is in heaven that
souls are sanctified.
 

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You are referring, I think, to where Jesus went after his death on the Cross and before the Resurrection. That is indeed recorded in the Bible, but it refers to what is called Abraham's Bosom or the Limbo of Our Fathers. The reference is to a place where those who died before Christ's saving work took place (Moses and Abraham, for example) but who would otherwise have been deemed righteous went to await the coming of the Messiah. After that event, they were freed to be in Heaven.

It has nothing to do with Purgatory other than that it's one more place in the afterlife besides Heaven and Hell.

It says that people were kept in prisons in the lower parts of the Earth for being disobedient in the days of Noah. You think Abraham and Moses were kept in prisons for being disobedient?

Go read it again.

“by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.”

“For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”

-1 Peter 3:19-20,4:6

Do you really believe Moses was kept in prisons in the lower parts of the Earth for being disobedient?
 
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pinacled

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It says that people were kept in prisons in the lower parts of the Earth for being disobedient in the days of Noah. You think Abraham and Moses were kept in prisons for being disobedient?

Go read it again.

“by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.”

“For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”

-1 Peter 3:19-20,4:6

Do you really believe Moses was kept in prisons in the lower parts of the Earth for being disobedient?
Take the modern perception of prison out of the equation. Only then will the context of the word prison become obviously apparent.
.

Prison is a weight relative to Shackles bound by freewill oaths also known as a peirced ear or shaved head.

Which is why the godly are instructed to abstain from swearing oaths.
Something of which should be and is fully complimented within torah.
halacha

Blessings Always
 
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Andrew

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Lying about luther will improve worldly wealth and a seat next to mammon
"Dear God, if the departed souls be in a state that they yet may be helped then I pray that you would be gracious. When you have thus prayed once or twice, then let it be sufficient and commend them unto God." (Martin Luther)

In context Martin Luther speaks of purgatory as unproven by scripture but yet possible as anything is with God. His version or idea of purgatory was not the same as the RCC but keep in mind that he WAS a devout monk and priest in the Catholic church before denouncing her heretic dogmas... so claims that I am suggesting Luther promoted the dogma of purgatory throughout his entire life (or whatever your claim is) is false.. I am not seated with mammon, (bury the hatchet already!)

Here is the entire quote in context

As for the dead, since Scripture gives us no information on the subject, I regard it as no sin to pray with free devotion in this or some similar fashion: “Dear God, if this soul is in a condition accessible to mercy, be thou gracious to it.” And when this has been done once or twice, let it suffice. For vigils and requiem masses and yearly celebrations of requiems are useless, and are merely the devil’s annual fair. Nor have we anything in Scripture concerning purgatory. It too was certainly fabricated by goblins. Therefore, I maintain it is not necessary to believe in it; although all things are possible to God, and he could very well allow souls to be tormented after their departure from the body. But he has caused nothing of this to be spoken or written, therefore he does not wish to have it believed, either. I know of a purgatory, however, in another way, but it would not be proper to teach anything about it in the church, nor on the other hand, to deal with it by means of endowments or vigils. Luther, M. (1999, c1961). Vol. 37: Luther's works, vol. 37 : Word and Sacrament III
 

Lanman87

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Opinion not fact.
It is a fact that purgatory (and praying for the dead) is not part of the Mosaic Law. Therefore, for Jews, it is a tradition of men.
That quote has two parts.
The first part For by a single offering he has perfected for all time refers to Christ's offering being for all time. It does not need to be repeated as the offering under the Old Law (see verse 12)
The second part is those who are being sanctified. Where are they being sanctified ? - on earth and (if necessary) in purgatory.
Christ's offering is for all time and is effective for all time. We are spiritually perfect because we have been given the righteousness that comes by faith (in Christ). Phil 3:9, Romans 3:22, Romans 1:17, Romans 9:30, Romans 10:6, Galatians 3:8 We are fully justified by faith and we stay Justified by Christ because He has perfected us for all time when we received His righteousness. We are still in our mortal bodies in a fallen world, so we are still struggling against the effects of the fall and God works in us to help us overcome our sinful desires, which is Sanctification. When we leave our bodies we take hold of the perfection already given us as we are freed from our mortal bodies.

Also,

The New Testament is very clear that for a believer, "To be away from the body is to be home with the Lord". 2 Corinthians 5:6-9

In Phil 1:23 Paul says he would rather die and be with Christ. That is the understanding of the Apostles, that when a believer dies he goes to be with Christ.

As I said in my first reply, Purgatory came from Pagan/Greek philosophy and Jewish Mystics and was eventually adopted by the Catholic church. It didn't come from apostolic teaching.
 
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