Pauline Christianity

Lucian Hodoboc

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 1, 2019
Messages
1,266
Location
Eastern Europe
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
I saw @Stravinsk mentioning this in another thread and I'd like to discuss about it with him. I don't know much about it, but I do agree with the idea that some of the teachings from Paul's letters seem to contradict the teachings from the 4 Gospels. Do you guys think that Paul misunderstood the Gospel? Also, why do you think God allowed for several of his epistles to be lost?
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,729
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
I don't know much about it, but I do agree with the idea that some of the teachings from Paul's letters seem to contradict the teachings from the 4 Gospels. Do you guys think that Paul misunderstood the Gospel?


No. I DO think that Jesus and Paul are often speaking to very different audiences and thus stressing different points. And of course in all Scripture, there is that "Law/Gospel" distinction. But I see no direct "contradictions."


Also, why do you think God allowed for several of his epistles to be lost?


Perhaps because they were not inspired and/or of no consequence to the Church and/or contained nothing not very well said elsewhere and thus just redundant. But we have no way to know. It also seems likely to ME that Jesus said and did MUCH MORE than is recorded in any of the Gospels again, perhaps not with different teachings and points and thus no need. There's a verse (I seem to recall off the top of my head) about "Jesus did more than is recorded in this book.... if everything He did was recorded, all the books in the world could not contain them." Or something to that effect.




.
 

Albion

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Sep 1, 2017
Messages
7,550
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Anglican
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
We can guess that parts of the Bible are wrong, mistaken, invalid. But then we can not be Christians. Why? Because under those circumstances, the bedrock of the faith, the revelation we consider to be God's own word, ceases to be reliable.

We would not even have a record of Christ's own life to appeal to, if someone were to say that at least they believe in Him. No, not if we cannot trust the Bible to be true; that's because there is nothing else that approaches being primary evidence when it comes to what we think Jesus said, did, and was.
 
Last edited:

atpollard

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 6, 2017
Messages
2,573
Location
Florida
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Baptist
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes

hedrick

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
683
Age
74
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
I saw @Stravinsk mentioning this in another thread and I'd like to discuss about it with him. I don't know much about it, but I do agree with the idea that some of the teachings from Paul's letters seem to contradict the teachings from the 4 Gospels. Do you guys think that Paul misunderstood the Gospel? Also, why do you think God allowed for several of his epistles to be lost?
This is a difficult question. Paul doesn’t normally directly contradict Jesus. You can also establish many correspondences between his teachings and Jesus’, even where terminology differs. But there are differences in overall approach and what I’d call their vision.

As I see it, Jesus says his mission was to establish the Kingdom of God. As we see in the Lord’s prayer, that means to establish it now, though of course being in the Kingdom is just the start of something that continues. We are expected to be his agents in doing this. He trained his disciples, and sent out a larger group. He talks about judgment, but being saved doesn’t seem like a goal in itself. It’s just that we’ll be held accountable to how we respond to his call.

Interestingly, he never calls any human either holy or pure. I think that’s because purity was really the Pharisees’ thing. I think there’s a subtle difference between being obedient and being holy. Holiness is an accomplishment. Obedience isn’t: As he points out, we expect that even from slaves.

He also doesn’t speak of sin very much, except its forgiveness and certainly not sexual sin except divorce and adultery, both of which are also violations of trust. Yes, you can find a couple of passages, but it's simply not the kind of central concern that it is for Paul. I suspect the reason is that he' more concerned about having us be useful than having us be pure.

Paul sees Jesus’ mission as something closer to personal salvation. For him Kingdom is primarily something we “inherit,” by which I understand he means after death. He obviously cares about the Church. In many ways that seems to be his equivalent of the present Kingdom. He is closer to the Pharisees in that holiness and purity are goals, and sexual sins are a priority for him. Salvation comes from faith in Christ, something not evident in quite the same way in Jesus’ teaching.

Some of the differences are no doubt due to the different perspective of helping Christian communities after Jesus’ death and resurrection. But it still seems to be the case that versions of Christianity that start with Jesus’ teaching and use Paul to illuminate questions not dealt with by Jesus look different from those that start with Paul and use Jesus to fill in the gaps. Of course Jesus-first Christianity is actually pretty rare.

There may also be differences in the relationship between Jesus and God in the Synoptics vs Paul and John. However that’s not a discussion we can have here or in other major forum because of forum rules.

In general I think we can use both. I certainly wouldn’t reject Paul as a source of insight. He dealt with critical questions that Jesus didn’t have to, because he had to deal with how to incorporate Gentile followers. A lot of theology is formulated in response to errors. He had to deal with justification by, not so much works, as cultic actions. Jesus certainly would have agreed with Paul, but he didn’t deal with the challenge, and so didn’t have occasion to formulate justification. But still, I start with the Synoptics, and that gives my Christianity a different flavor from the dominant one, a flavor many Christians consider heretical. (In fact even believing there's a difference is regarded by many as heretical.)
 

Stravinsk

Composer and Artist on Flat Earth
Joined
Jan 4, 2016
Messages
4,499
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Deist
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Widow/Widower
I saw @Stravinsk mentioning this in another thread and I'd like to discuss about it with him. I don't know much about it, but I do agree with the idea that some of the teachings from Paul's letters seem to contradict the teachings from the 4 Gospels. Do you guys think that Paul misunderstood the Gospel? Also, why do you think God allowed for several of his epistles to be lost?

I would be happy to discuss the subject - however - I have gotten into hot water on 2 websites doing so. CF (because of the discussion, multiple people, not just me) even put a rule saying something to the effect of "you can't question Paul" in their speculative/non-denom section. Another christian website banned me outright.

I believe Saul/Paul to be the first anti-christ and false apostle. This does not mean everything he says is false. Well crafted lies mix truth in here and there to lend credibility to the lie.

Neither the Gospels nor the OT is silent on Saul/Paul, but the messages/warnings are veiled in a way so that they are not too obvious.

It has been mentioned by another poster in this thread that the Bible is all we have. This is not so. We have the historical record of the first Christians (who also did not follow Paul), and we have the Clementine Homilies - a book never called "Scripture" by most Christians but contain the words of Peter, to whom the "keys" are given. Paul is the villain in them but he is referred to under a different name.
 

Lucian Hodoboc

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 1, 2019
Messages
1,266
Location
Eastern Europe
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
I believe Saul/Paul to be the first anti-christ and false apostle.
How did you come to that conclusion? What would his motives be? Insanity? Why would anyone give up a life of prosperity in exchange for a life of suffering and constant peril?
 

Stravinsk

Composer and Artist on Flat Earth
Joined
Jan 4, 2016
Messages
4,499
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Deist
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Widow/Widower
How did you come to that conclusion? What would his motives be? Insanity? Why would anyone give up a life of prosperity in exchange for a life of suffering and constant peril?

I was raised in a Christian/Bible believing household. Taken to church from a young age, and then attended on my own for some years as an adult. All the denominations I was part of preached Paul's words as if they were "God breathed". It would be a rare Sunday or mid-week service where at least something of what Paul wrote was not quoted/preached or otherwise referenced.

So I didn't come to this conclusion lightly or on a whim. I have spoken to church going people (including pastors) who admit difficulty with some of Paul's writings, but that difficulty only goes so far. None completely reject him, because to do so means rejecting not only a large chunk of his theology but also the hierarchical nature of the church and not least, a plethora of social ties, including that of family.

When I was active on CF, at least in the early stages, I was mostly a Paul-believer/apologist, although I have always found a few things he wrote particularly disagreeable. After several years out of church (and thus out of the tidal wave of "Paul preaching"), with few social ties, and with multiple family deaths recently behind me, I found the courage to take a good hard look at him, things he wrote, and things written about him (from within the Bible and without) and finally come to the conclusion I did.

It took several years. So it is not a simple answer to your question.


As for Paul's "suffering" and "constant peril", I doubt you could find much evidence of that outside his own testimony.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: JRT

Lucian Hodoboc

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 1, 2019
Messages
1,266
Location
Eastern Europe
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
I'm sorry to hear about your problems. My condolences for your family members who have passed away.

As for
As for Paul's "suffering" and "constant peril", I doubt you could find much evidence of that outside his own testimony.
, we have Acts, which was written by Luke, one of Paul's friends and traveling companions. Do you reject the Gospel of Luke as well?
 

Stravinsk

Composer and Artist on Flat Earth
Joined
Jan 4, 2016
Messages
4,499
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Deist
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Widow/Widower
I'm sorry to hear about your problems. My condolences for your family members who have passed away.

As for

, we have Acts, which was written by Luke, one of Paul's friends and traveling companions. Do you reject the Gospel of Luke as well?

Where is this suffering and constant peril recorded in Acts? Would that be when the Jews of the Asia region - Ephesus - came after Saul/Paul when he was exposed as teaching against the Law after specifically going through the Nazarite vow in the temple at the request of James...whereupon Paul took refuge under the Roman government?

Paul makes a huge deal in his epistles about his suffering and being in chains for Christ, but at the same time he's writing passages like Romans 13 and praising all Government as being instituted by God - which any person with a scant knowledge of history knows cannot be true, unless God supports multiple tyrannical regimes and all the evil they do to their people as well as other nations. It's worth mentioning also that Paul's praise of Government Authority while at the same time seeking sympathy for "being in chains" under that same Authority deserves an award for irony.

I don't completely reject Luke's writings, however I do see them as biased in favor of Paul. Even through the bias Luke's Acts shows certain things that are not favorable towards Paul...such as his changing conversion story, his use of a Greek "god" in a play about a greek 'god' to describe the utterance of Jesus on the road to Damascus, and that the disciples didn't think he was a disciple.

Lukes Gospel is at odds with Matthew on several points as well.
 

Lucian Hodoboc

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 1, 2019
Messages
1,266
Location
Eastern Europe
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
And of course in all Scripture, there is that "Law/Gospel" distinction.
Do you mean the "original Christianity / Protestant sola fide invention" distinction?
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,729
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Do you mean the "original Christianity / Protestant sola fide invention" distinction?


NOT to derail this thread (we can start a new thread if you desire to explore or discuss this point)...


LAW: The will of God
GOSPEL: The heart of God

LAW: Justice
GOSPEL: Mercy, grace









.
 
Last edited:

hedrick

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
683
Age
74
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
Pretty clearly Luke was interested in the Gentile mission. It’s pretty obvious why he would see Paul as a hero. There is, however, little evidence of Paul’s actual theology in Luke. So if you don‘t like Paul’s theology that isn’t necessarily a problem for Luke.
 

atpollard

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 6, 2017
Messages
2,573
Location
Florida
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Baptist
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
2 Peter 3:15-16 [NLT]
And remember, our Lord's patience gives people time to be saved. This is what our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you with the wisdom God gave him -- speaking of these things in all of his letters. Some of his comments are hard to understand, and those who are ignorant and unstable have twisted his letters to mean something quite different, just as they do with other parts of Scripture. And this will result in their destruction.​
 

Stravinsk

Composer and Artist on Flat Earth
Joined
Jan 4, 2016
Messages
4,499
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Deist
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Widow/Widower
2 Peter 3:15-16 [NLT]
And remember, our Lord's patience gives people time to be saved. This is what our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you with the wisdom God gave him -- speaking of these things in all of his letters. Some of his comments are hard to understand, and those who are ignorant and unstable have twisted his letters to mean something quite different, just as they do with other parts of Scripture. And this will result in their destruction.​

Question Paul and you are ignorant, unstable and damned to destruction. So much for being a Berean eh? Paul should have slammed those hell-bound unstable ignoramuses in Acts 17:11

Btw, for what it's worth, most textual scholars do not believe 2 Peter was written by Peter.

I wonder personally if 1Peter was written by Peter. Especially when you have passages such as 1Peter 2:13. Good Nuremberg excuse for those obeying the "ordinances of man". It so smells of Romans 13, and everyone loves a good Tyrant given his reign "by God".
 

atpollard

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 6, 2017
Messages
2,573
Location
Florida
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Baptist
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Question Paul and you are ignorant, unstable and damned to destruction. So much for being a Berean eh? Paul should have slammed those hell-bound unstable ignoramuses in Acts 17:11

Btw, for what it's worth, most textual scholars do not believe 2 Peter was written by Peter.

I wonder personally if 1Peter was written by Peter. Especially when you have passages such as 1Peter 2:13. Good Nuremberg excuse for those obeying the "ordinances of man". It so smells of Romans 13, and everyone loves a good Tyrant given his reign "by God".
It is really hard to take arguments seriously founded on the premise that extra-Biblical works REALLY WERE written by Peter and prove that Paul was an antichrist, but the Biblical letters credited to Peter that acknowledge the writings of Paul as “scripture” WERE NOT written by Peter.

In any case (just to set the record straight) I was calling YOU nothing by posting that quote. I was drawing attention to the fact that the WORD OF GOD … the actual SCRIPTURES that we really do have … say that the writings of Paul are scripture and do so from the pen of the Apostle Peter. This is a direct contradiction and refutation of your imaginary “Antichrist Paul” hypotheses. (A Biblical fact that I thought worth offering to the conversation).

With respect to you personally, I already KNOW that you are a crackpot by your insane flat Earth conspiracy theories. That is why I wasted no effort attempting to convince you of anything or directly responding to any of your earlier “thoughts”. I leave you to your tinfoil hat to protect you from the government thought control waves.

I only discuss what the Bible actually says.
 

Stravinsk

Composer and Artist on Flat Earth
Joined
Jan 4, 2016
Messages
4,499
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Deist
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Widow/Widower
It is really hard to take arguments seriously founded on the premise that extra-Biblical works REALLY WERE written by Peter and prove that Paul was an antichrist, but the Biblical letters credited to Peter that acknowledge the writings of Paul as “scripture” WERE NOT written by Peter.

I know it is hard for you. It is hard for every unthinking/uncritical person who goes to church every honorable Day of the Sun* and like a automaton repeats "thus saith the word of God" over everything cited from the bible, no matter how much it may contradict other verses, no matter if it misquotes other verses, and no matter how much it is easily proven false. Btw, do you think God appointed Stalin, Mao and Hitler according to Romans 13 and 1Peter 2:13? Were all those murders and horrible medical experiments God's will? If you have to struggle with that question I feel sorry for you, as it is clear that elements of your religion blind you.
In any case (just to set the record straight) I was calling YOU nothing by posting that quote. I was drawing attention to the fact that the WORD OF GOD … the actual SCRIPTURES that we really do have … say that the writings of Paul are scripture and do so from the pen of the Apostle Peter. This is a direct contradiction and refutation of your imaginary “Antichrist Paul” hypotheses. (A Biblical fact that I thought worth offering to the conversation).

With respect to you personally, I already KNOW that you are a crackpot by your insane flat Earth conspiracy theories. That is why I wasted no effort attempting to convince you of anything or directly responding to any of your earlier “thoughts”. I leave you to your tinfoil hat to protect you from the government thought control waves.

I only discuss what the Bible actually says.

Anyone who quotes that verse from 2 Peter and believes it is the truth doesn't have to explicitly point fingers at individuals, the verse does it for them by categorizing all who fall under it's statement. However intellectually dishonest you are being in the first paragraph, I smile that you don't hold back in the second with what you really think, without hiding behind a bible verse, lol.
 

atpollard

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 6, 2017
Messages
2,573
Location
Florida
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Baptist
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
I saw @Stravinsk mentioning this in another thread and I'd like to discuss about it with him.
Good luck with that.

I don't know much about it, but I do agree with the idea that some of the teachings from Paul's letters seem to contradict the teachings from the 4 Gospels.
I don’t. However, if you posted a specific example then we could have discussed it on the merits of what SCRIPTURE actually says rather than exchanging empty opinions.

Do you guys think that Paul misunderstood the Gospel?
No. I think that one of the best theological minds trained in both Hebrew theology by Judaism’s top teacher and in Greek Philosophy was personally tutored by the post-resurrection Christ and wrote the cornerstones of Christian Theology. He was uniquely gifted, trained and guided by the Holy Spirit to fulfill a very specific purpose … to provide Christians with the “meat” that the Apostles were not ready for in the three years they followed the Messiah and unlearned the mess that the Pharisees had made of the Law of God.

Also, why do you think God allowed for several of his epistles to be lost?
I think that God did no such thing. The earliest christian gatherings of the Church … in the first century while people that KNEW the Apostles and Christ still lived … included TWO collections of scrolls that were gathered together, read at worship, and functioned as the modern Bible still functions today.

  • The FIRST scroll was the 4 gospels we have today collected together. Our gospels have ALWAYS been the Gospels of the Christian Faith. There were never more or less held as sacred by all of the churches.
  • The SECOND scroll was the Letters of Paul (ending with Hebrews). The letters we have are the letters that the church has always held as SCRIPTURE. There were never other letters of Paul included in the second scroll and there were never fewer letters of Paul in the second scroll.
There are many letters and books in the Bible that have been debated throughout the centuries, however the people that KNEW Christ and the Apostles read the same 4 Gospels and the same Pauline Epistles (plus Hebrews) that we read today. NOTHING in our Bibles is more certainly the WORD OF GOD than the very books that you are proposing to pit against each other. Whatever you seek to create, it is NOT Christianity.

That is what I have to offer on this subject.
I leave you to your work.
 

Stravinsk

Composer and Artist on Flat Earth
Joined
Jan 4, 2016
Messages
4,499
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Deist
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Widow/Widower
I don't know much about it, but I do agree with the idea that some of the teachings from Paul's letters seem to contradict the teachings from the 4 Gospels.

Here is a list to peruse. Some are clearly contradictions, others may give the Pauline believer some wiggle room, however slight:

 

JRT

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 30, 2016
Messages
780
Age
80
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
No
I'm sorry to hear about your problems. My condolences for your family members who have passed away.

As for

, we have Acts, which was written by Luke, one of Paul's friends and traveling companions. Do you reject the Gospel of Luke as well?

A few modern Biblical scholars regard Luke's "Acts of the Apostles" as an early apologetic work attempting to gloss over the very real differences between his teachings and those of the apostolic church. Even when we compare Acts to what Paul says about himself in his authentic epistles we find problems and contradictions.
 
Top Bottom