Lowliness is assured by majesty, weakness by power, mortality by eternity.

[Josiah]

I find it hard to define the theology that allowed for Enoch and Elijah to be transported before Christ' resurrection. Or with Moses at the transformation. They were alive enough to discuss Christ' exodus. But I'll take that for what it's worth and realize it's a guarantee that Christian hope is not in vain. :amen:

GRACE.... getting what we don't deserve. God is gracious to His SINFUL, fallen, undeserving children.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Wrong.


"Total depravity" has to do with justification (narrow) and simply states that we have nothing to contribute to this, that justification is a free gift, an inheritance, earned entirely by Christ; it flows rather naturally from monergism (which of course the Roman Catholic Denomination rejects).

Switching topics, yes - it is not possible for man during his pilgrimage on Earth to attain the full Godhead - to be as morally PERFECT as He is (from conception to death), as OBEDIENT as God is, as LOVING as God is, to be exactly as Christ - we will fall short. I realize some Catholics hold an incredibly high view of they themselves and deny this, but Protestants generally hold that we all fail in this. When a Catholic can point me to some moral, fully human man or woman (officially registered in a parish owned and operated by the RC Denomination or otherwise) who is PERFECT.... who NEVER fall short of EVERYTHING God requires, who PERFECTLY love all people as much as God did on the Cross, who ALWAYS totally, completely "hit the mark" in all matters of morality in thought, word and deed - in what they do and don't do - after I've met them and realize their virtual equality with Christ, then I'll reconsider what Protestants teach on this. But I'm not holding my breath.



- Josiah

Josiah....I'm curious or confused or....Anyway.

The command; is to love perfectly as GOD loves; or to love others as much as yourself?

peace

faith in selfless unity for good

 

[Josiah]

Josiah....I'm confused... The command is to love perfectly as GOD loves or to love others as much as yourself?

"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another." John 13:34
“This is my commandment, that you love one another just as I first loved you." John 15:12
"And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself'." Matthew 22:39


Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary:
22:34-40 An interpreter of the law asked our Lord a question, to try, not so much his knowledge, as his judgment. The love of God is the first and great commandment, and the sum of all the commands of the first table. Our love of God must be sincere, not in word and tongue only. All our love is too little to bestow upon him, therefore all the powers of the soul must be engaged for him, and carried out toward him. To love our neighbour as ourselves, is the second great commandment. There is a self-love which is corrupt, and the root of the greatest sins, and it must be put off and mortified; but there is a self-love which is the rule of the greatest duty: we must have a due concern for the welfare of our own souls and bodies. And we must love our neighbour as truly and sincerely as we love ourselves; in many cases we must deny ourselves for the good of others. By these two commandments let our hearts be formed as by a mould.


IMO, what is commanded is LOVE (perfect, divine love - as that on the Cross). Jesus on one occasion separates this love into two objects: God and man, but the love still is to be PERFECT, an exact mirror copy of Jesus' love for God and for man. While some take Matthew 22:39 to be SELF-love rather than love for others, I think that's absurd. While Jesus is not excluding love for self, His whole life, His love placed others above self. St Paul defines love largely as considering others as more important, of higher priority than self.

Of course, no one keeps this COMMAND..... we all fall short, we all "miss the mark" (the literal meaning of the word "sin").


Back to the subject at hand....



- Josiah




.

 

[atpollard]

"Total depravity" is a doctrinal tern of Calvinists and has a different meaning from depravity known to most.

I don't know for sure what total they talk about but for the most part being born without hope bar a miracle ( of rebirth) is the state one is in.

Understanding Total Depravity as taught in Calvinism (from the Heidelberg Catechism of 1563):

Q. What does God’s law require of us?
A. Christ teaches us this in summary in Matthew 22:37-40:
“‘You shall love the Lord your God
with all your heart,
and with all your soul,
and with all your mind.’1
This is the greatest and first commandment.
“And a second is like it:
‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’2
“On these two commandments hang
all the law and the prophets.”
1) Deut. 6:5
2) Lev. 19:18


Q. Can you live up to all this perfectly?
A. No.1
I have a natural tendency
to hate God and my neighbor.2
1) Rom. 3:9-20, 23; 1 John 1:8, 10
2) Gen. 6:5; Jer. 17:9; Rom. 7:23-24; 8:7; Eph. 2:1-3; Titus 3:3


Q. Did God create people
so wicked and perverse?
A. No.
God created them good1 and in his own image,2
that is, in true righteousness and holiness,3
so that they might
truly know God their creator,4
love him with all their heart,
and live with God in eternal happiness,
to praise and glorify him.5
1) Gen. 1:31
2) Gen. 1:26-27
3) Eph. 4:24
4) Col. 3:10
5) Ps. 8


Q. Then where does this corrupt human nature come from?
A. The fall and disobedience of our first parents,
Adam and Eve, in Paradise.1
This fall has so poisoned our nature2
that we are all conceived and born
in a sinful condition.3
1) Gen. 3
2) Rom. 5:12, 18-19
3) Ps. 51:5


Q. But are we so corrupt
that we are totally unable to do any good
and inclined toward all evil?
A. Yes,1 unless we are born again
by the Spirit of God.2
1) Gen. 6:5; 8:21; Job 14:4; Isa. 53:6
2) John 3:3-5

 

[Brighten04]

Understanding Total Depravity as taught in Calvinism (from the Heidelberg Catechism of 1563):

Q. What does God’s law require of us?
A. Christ teaches us this in summary in Matthew 22:37-40:
“‘You shall love the Lord your God
with all your heart,
and with all your soul,
and with all your mind.’1
This is the greatest and first commandment.
“And a second is like it:
‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’2
“On these two commandments hang
all the law and the prophets.”
1) Deut. 6:5
2) Lev. 19:18


Q. Can you live up to all this perfectly?
A. No.1
I have a natural tendency
to hate God and my neighbor.2
1) Rom. 3:9-20, 23; 1 John 1:8, 10
2) Gen. 6:5; Jer. 17:9; Rom. 7:23-24; 8:7; Eph. 2:1-3; Titus 3:3


Q. Did God create people
so wicked and perverse?
A. No.
God created them good1 and in his own image,2
that is, in true righteousness and holiness,3
so that they might
truly know God their creator,4
love him with all their heart,
and live with God in eternal happiness,
to praise and glorify him.5
1) Gen. 1:31
2) Gen. 1:26-27
3) Eph. 4:24
4) Col. 3:10
5) Ps. 8


Q. Then where does this corrupt human nature come from?
A. The fall and disobedience of our first parents,
Adam and Eve, in Paradise.1
This fall has so poisoned our nature2
that we are all conceived and born
in a sinful condition.3
1) Gen. 3
2) Rom. 5:12, 18-19
3) Ps. 51:5


Q. But are we so corrupt
that we are totally unable to do any good
and inclined toward all evil?
A. Yes,1 unless we are born again
by the Spirit of God.2
1) Gen. 6:5; 8:21; Job 14:4; Isa. 53:6
2) John 3:3-5

I am not a Calvinist, but I agree with this. And being in Him gives us His righteousness and His perfection and His Holiness. Our sins are washed in His blood. Though they be like scarlet they are become white as snow, placed as far as the East is from the West.
Isa. 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Ps. 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I have doubts about the answer being "no" to the question "can you live up to this perfectly?" because God was willing to call Job "an upright man and perfect" and the holy scriptures refer to Enoch as one who pleased God. I have seen people reason that Enoch was a sinner like everybody else but that is not what holy scripture says and with regard to Job the only one who accused Job of sinning is Satan. God said that Job spoke what is right when Job spoke of God (at the end of the story of Job) and even though Job says "I repent"* his repentance was for speaking without knowledge (in ignorance) not for sinning. Jesus did not sin and the holy scriptures state that explicitly and Job along with Enoch have a positive testimony from God about their manner of living. The Catholic Church holds that the Blessed Virgin Mary lived without doing any sins - this was a grace given to her by God. So Total depravity seems too excessive, too enthusiastic, too inclined to make a great deal out of what is not a great thing to be accounted as consistent with the teaching of Christ in the holy scriptures.

* - God also repents according to the holy scriptures yet no Christian would even think that God's repentance implied that God sinned.