Impossible

Odë:hgöd

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Heb 6:4-6 . . For it is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who
have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted
the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall
away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying
the Son of God afresh and subjecting him to public disgrace.

We know that with God nothing is impossible. So, I think we have to acquiesce that
the impossibility spoken of here is so because God has made it His mission in life,
so to speak, to assure that folks blessed with the level of advantages spoken of
here are never to be given an opportunity to reconsider-- ever!
_
 

Lees

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Heb 6:4-6 . . For it is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who
have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted
the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall
away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying
the Son of God afresh and subjecting him to public disgrace.

We know that with God nothing is impossible. So, I think we have to acquiesce that
the impossibility spoken of here is so because God has made it His mission in life,
so to speak, to assure that folks blessed with the level of advantages spoken of
here are never to be given an opportunity to reconsider-- ever!
_

Difficult verses for sure, but then the Book of Hebrews has many such verses.

Your explanation, if I interpret you correctly, seems to say that God will never allow His people the possibility of falling away. So that if any fall away, they are not His people. Is that a correct understanding of what you said?

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Odë:hgöd

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Your explanation, if I interpret you correctly, seems to say that God will never allow
His people the possibility of falling away. So that if any fall away, they are not His
people.

Q: Is that a correct understanding of what you said?

A: No.
_
 

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Q: Is that a correct understanding of what you said?

A: No.
_

OK. I gues you're going to make me ask.

Q. What is the correct understanding of what you said?

Q. Are you able to explain?

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Lees

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I think these verses are too important to ignore. I have to assume that the opening post is saying that if a believer has experienced those things listed in (Heb. 6:4-5), and then fall away, (6:6), then it is impossible that God would allow them to repent.

Concerning the opening post, I question who the 'folks' are. I question the use of the word 'acquiesce' in describing it. I question the phrase "because God has made it His mission in life...to assure'.

Many will say those addressed in these verses are not believers, but that they only make a profession of faith. The common designation is 'professors but not possessors'. Others will say these are believers, and these verses teach a loss of salvation to the believer who 'falls away'.

I disagree with both of those views.

It is clear to me that believers are the ones being addressed. Reading through the chapters leading up to (Heb. 6), how can one not see that it is believers? See (Heb. 3:1) for an example. "Wherefore, holy bretheren, partakers of the heavenly calling". Compare that to (Heb. 6:4) , one of our verses in question, "were made partakers of the Holy Ghost".

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Josiah

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VIEWS ON THE RADICAL CALVINIST VIEW OF 'ONCE SAVED, ALWAYS SAVED'


Gospel:


Romans 8:29-39, For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all--how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. "

Mark 13:22, "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect--if that were possible.

John 4:14, "but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

John 20:28, I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

1 Thess. 5:24, "The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.

Hebrews 10:14, "because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Rev. 3:5, "I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels."


... and more.



Law:


John 15:4-7, "Remain in me, and I will remain in you... If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

Rev. 2:10, "Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Matthew 10:22, "He who stands firm to the end will be saved."

1 Timothy 4:1, "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

Luke 8:13, "They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away."

John 8:31, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really My disciples."

Luke 21:19, "By standing firm you will gain life."

Hebrews 8:9, "They did not remain faithful to My covenant, and I turned away from them"

Gal. 5:4, "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

Col. 1:23, "If you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel."

Hebrews 10:26, "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."

2 Peter 1:8-10, "But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure."

2 Peter 3:17, "Be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position."

Rev. 3:5, He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white.

Luke 12:8, "He who disowns Me before men will be disowned before the angels of God."

... and more.


As so often in theology, we find there are "two sides of the coin." This one is a "Law/Gospel" issue.

The wisest approach is not to take all the Scriptures, subject them to our limited, fallable, sinful, human 'logic' and force them to "fit" and "make sense" to me - both reduced so as to agree with me. The wisest approach is to accept all the scriptures at their face value, as God said it, and allow them to stand in all their truth and power just as God inspired them.

The approach, then, is in how to APPLY them rather than in how to force them to fit together according to our fallible, limited logic. Not in accepting one "set" and explaining away the other in the light of it. The best approach is not to decide which "set" of scriptures is right and which is wrong (which must submit to the other)

The best appraoch is in deciding how to APPLY the verses in specific cases. The verses all have CONTEXT, they are addressing a situation. To the one who insists, "Hey, I was dragged to a Billy Graham thingy 52 years ago and decided for Jesus so God now is required to always accept me, so I can think what I want, do what I want, spit in His face - and God can't do a thing about that, I'm saved no matter what." To him, there is the Law (see verses above). To the one who says, "I'm a sinner! The chief of sinners! I'm just not sure my faith in Christ is enough, I'm not sure God's mercy and grace is mine through faith, is God still with me? Does God still love me? Is my faith still saving?" To him, the Gospel applies (see above). CONTEXT is the key.


A blessed Pentecost celebration to all....


- Josiah



.
 

Lees

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As so often in theology, we find there are "two sides of the coin." This one is a "Law/Gospel" issue.

The wisest approach is not to take all the Scriptures, subject them to our limited, fallable, sinful, human 'logic' and force them to "fit" and "make sense" to me - both reduced so as to agree with me. The wisest approach is to accept all the scriptures at their face value, as God said it, and allow them to stand in all their truth and power just as God inspired them.

The approach, then, is in how to APPLY them rather than in how to force them to fit together according to our fallible, limited logic. Not in accepting one "set" and explaining away the other in the light of it. The best approach is not to decide which "set" of scriptures is right and which is wrong (which must submit to the other)

The best appraoch is in deciding how to APPLY the verses in specific cases. The verses all have CONTEXT, they are addressing a situation. To the one who insists, "Hey, I was dragged to a Billy Graham thingy 52 years ago and decided for Jesus so God now is required to always accept me, so I can think what I want, do what I want, spit in His face - and God can't do a thing about that, I'm saved no matter what." To him, there is the Law (see verses above). To the one who says, "I'm a sinner! The chief of sinners! I'm just not sure my faith in Christ is enough, I'm not sure God's mercy and grace is mine through faith, is God still with me? Does God still love me? Is my faith still saving?" To him, the Gospel applies (see above). CONTEXT is the key.


A blessed Pentecost celebration to all....


- Josiah



.

The wisest approach would be to interpret the verses correctly. The wisest approach would be to expect Scripture to interpret Scripture. The wisest approach would be to recognize no verse stands on it's own.

You can't apply correctly if your interpretation is wrong. Your application will be just as wrong as your interpretation.

Of course context is important. Context being important shows no verse stands on it's own.

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Lees

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Picking up from post #(5), where I stated that it is believers that (Heb. 6:4-6) is addressing. I want to say also, that it's my opinion that Paul is the author of Hebrews. I've heard, I believe, all the arguments and see none that prove Paul is not the author. So from here on out, instead of saying the 'writer of Hebrews', I will say 'Paul'.

I believe it's quite possible that Peter, who wrote also to the Jews, was alluding to the book of (Hebrews) in (2 Peter 3:15). "And account that the long suffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you."


So, Paul is clearly writing to believers. But, not Gentile believers. He is writing to Jews who have accepted Christ as their Messiah and Saviour. This can be seen immediately in (Heb. 1:1-2). "God....spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son...." The use of the word 'fathers' and 'us' shows that it is to Jews, and that the writer was Jew. But it was not to the nation Israel as a whole. It was to the Jews who had become Christians. This is clear in (Heb. 3:1). " Wherefore holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession,Christ Jesus;"

Jewish Christians. And there were many. (Acts 21:20) "...Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law."

Remember also, that Paul here assumes those to whom he is writing are familar with the Law and all the Temple activities and furniture, and the whole Mosaic System altogether.

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Lees

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All of this that has been said is important to understand what (Heb. 6:4-6) is saying. Thus far, we see Paul is writing to Jews who have become Christians.

So, why is Paul writing to them? Paul never wrote without reason and purpose. I already mentioned (Acts 21:20), post #(8), that revealed the many Jews who were Christians. But, it also revealed that they were zealous of the Law. Does any see a problem here?

Who was it that Jesus Christ always confronted, and debated, and argued, and who finally had Him killed? Answer: the Jews who were zealous of the Law. (John 18:29-31) And after the death, burial, resurrection, and the beginning of the Church at Pentecost, that anger and hatred against Christ was directed to the followers of Christ. (Acts 4:1-22) (Acts 5:17-42) (Acts 7:54-60) (Acts 8:1) (Acts 9:1-2)

The Jewish belivers whom Paul was writing to were being persecuted for their faith in Jesus Christ. (Heb. 10:23-25) (Heb. 12:3-4) (Heb. 10:32-39) And they were being persecuted by these same unbelieving Jews who rejected Christ. By the same Jews that persecuted Paul. (Acts 21:28)

This persecution would have involved a separation from the Temple sacrifices and worship. That which the Jew had known all his life to be done in accordance to the will of God, would be taken from him. It would be almost too much to expect one to bear. Thus, the Jewish Christian was tempted to renounce his confession of faith in Christ and continue on in the Mosaic Law system. And this is why Paul wrote this epistle. Trying to show that in following Christ, you are continuing on in your faith as a Jew in the Law that God gave. The Law was not an end to what God was doing. It was simply a means to an end. That end, was Jesus Christ. Christ is greater than all that the Law entails.

But, Paul gave serious warnings concerning the Jewish believers who were considering going back to the Mosaic Law, and renouncing Jesus Christ. And they may not have been renouncing Christ; they may have been believing in Christ and obeying the Law. (Acts 15:4-5). That too was anathema to Paul. All of which pertains to the warnings given in the book of (Hebrews). Whcih envolves the passages in question. (Heb. 6:4-5)

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So, those to whom Paul was writing were Jewish Christians who were tempted to go back or stay in the Mosaic Law system due to persecution from the Jews. This may have involved their renouncing Christ. Or it may have been just their acceptance of the Law and Christ. Both were anathama to Paul.

These Christian Jews had been believers long enough so that they should now be teaching instead of learning again the basics of their faith in God. (Heb. 5:11-14) "...ye have need that one teach you again which be the first prinicples of the oracles of God...." And that was what the Law was...the basics. The Law was elementary. It was a learning tool pointing toward Jesus Christ. (Heb. 6:1) "Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection...."

Paul encourages these Jewish Christians to go forward, not backward. Paul is telling these Jewish Christians that to renounce their confession of faith in Christ and go back to the Law is going backwards and not forward with God. The same is true with trying to be Christian and yet go back to the Law. Both were anathema to Paul. Going back to the Law or adding the Law with faith in Christ was something Paul despised. (Gal. 2:2-3)

So, this is the ground work leading up to the verses in question, (Heb. 6:4-6) And Paul gives one serious statement just prior to (Heb. 6:4-6). Concerning going on with God to perfection, he says "And this will we do, if God permit" (Heb. 6:3). What is the implication? Answer: God may not permit it.

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Odë:hgöd

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Difficult verses for sure, but then the Book of Hebrews has many such verses.

.I suspect that quite a few Christians are experiencing difficulty with the letter to
Hebrews because it wasn't written to them. Its target audience is the people whose
ancestors came up out of Egypt with Moses.

And to make matters only worse; Gentiles tend to Christianize the letter instead of
trying to interpret it from a Jewish perspective.

There are letters in the New Testament written specifically for the benefit of
Gentiles; but I honestly don't think Hebrews is one of them. I believe that this is a
letter meant for the heathen to glean rather than harvest; so to speak.


Mark 7:25-29 . . A certain woman, whose young daughter had an unclean spirit,
heard of him, and came and fell at his feet: the woman was a Greek, a
Syrophenician by nation; and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil
out of her daughter.

. . . But Jesus said unto her: Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take
the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs.

. . . And she answered and said unto him: Yes, lord: yet the dogs under the table
eat of the children's crumbs.

That woman's response was right-on. WOOF!
_
 
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Lees

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@Odë:hgöd

I suspect 'you' have difficulty with the book of (Hebrews). You offer nothing.

You make a statement but then don't respond when asked what you mean.

I don't think you're in a position to critisize anyone in their understanding of the book of (Hebrews).

But, surprise me. Begin by answering my question in post #(4) instead of ignoring it. Or just sit back and learn. Be sure to take notes.

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Continuing from post #(10):

(Heb. 6:3), God may not permit some to go on to perfection. Paul was speaking to believing Jews. He encourages them all to go forward with God to perfection. (6:1) But he acknowledges that some may not be permitted to go on. Why? Answer: For the reasons given in (Heb. 6:4-6).

Remember, these are the people of God. They believed on Christ and experienced the New Birth. They were enlightened and experienced the power of the Holy Spirit in the age to come. (Heb. 6:4-5) But some fell away. (6:6). What does that mean, they fell away? Answer: They ceased walking with God, for whatever reasons. The immediate reasons are that they feared the Jews and being cut off from the Temple and Mosaic system. They were tempted to renounce Christ and turn back to the Old Mosaic economy.

In doing this Paul says they crucify Jesus Christ again. (Heb. 6:6) Thus it is impossible for God to grant them repentance and to allow them to go on to perfection or maturity. (6:4, 6:6)

But what does that mean? Well, most believe it means a loss of salvation plain and simple. But it didn't say that.

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Odë:hgöd

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Gentiles tend to Christianize the letter instead of trying to interpret it from a Jewish
perspective.

For an example of Christianizing, see posts No.10 & No.13. They completely overlook
the Jews' experiences with Moses when God brought them up from Egypt.
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Lees

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For an example of Christianizing, see posts No.10 & No.13
_

Well, I am Christian.

Again, you make broad statements but cannot back them up. You cannot engage in debate. All you can do is wait and hope someone else posts something so you can then make your broad statements about what they posted. Why? Because you don't know. You can't disprove what others say. Because you don't know. You can't respond to questions because you don't know.

For an example of nothing to offer, see post #(3), (11), and (14).

I understand you don't know anything about the book of (Hebrews). No problem. Just sit back and learn and take notes.

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continuing from post #(13):

We left off with Paul encouraging the believing Jews to go on with God to perfection and maturity. (Heb. 6:1) Paul is telling them not to go back to the Mosaic system. But Paul realizes that God will not permit some to continue.

(Heb. 6:3-6) "And this will we do, if God permits. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again un to repentance; seeing the crucify to themselves the Son of god afresh, and put him to an open shame."

This is a serious warning to the Jewish believers. But it is not the loss of eternal life. To explain, a couple of definitions are necessary. 1.) The Promised Land.

1.) The promised land, Cannan, was not Heaven. Nor is it a picture or type of Heaven. When the Israelites no sooner got into the promised land, they immediately were at war. (Josh. 6) And they were constantly at war. Read the whole book of (Joshua). They had many enemies. So what is the promised land? The promised land was that land promised to them by God. He wanted them to have it. It was their possession to have. But, they would only obtain it through warfare that would involve their faith and walk with God. It would invovle their maturity as believers to exercise such a faith.

Remember how God led Israel out of Egypt? (Ex. 13:17) "And it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go, that God led them not through the way of the land of the Philistines, although, that was near; for God said, Lest peradventure the people repent when they see war, and they return to Egypt."

Here God avoided war because the believing Jews were not ready, not spiritually mature enough, for it. But there would come a time, where enough time and experience had been given, that they would be ready....or should be ready for it. That would come some two years later at Kadesh-Barnea. (Num. 13-14)

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Continuing:

Most know the story of what happened at Kadsh-Barnea. The Israelites are ready to go into the land promised to them. Spies are sent out. They come back with a bad, evil, report. Giants are in the land, we can't take it. (Num. 13:31-14:38) This displeases God. He says, fine then. You will all die in the wilderness. You will not enter the land I promised you. And the LORD killed the men that brought back the evil report. (Num. 14:36-37) (that will make one think twice about the report one gives)

Moses relays to the Israelites what God has said and what He did. They are all going to die in the wilderness. Their children will go into the promised land, but not them. And what did the people do? Answer: They repented of their unbelief and sinning against God. (Num. 14:40) "...Lo, we be here, and will go up unto the place which the LORD hath promised: for we have sinned".

Sounds like good and true repentance, correct? And it was. Only one problem. God would not let them repent. Sound familiar? (Heb. 6:6) "If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance...."

Remember, these too are the people of God. They were saved at the passover in Egypt, exercising faith and putting blood on the door posts of their homes. Then for about two years they saw God's miraculous power in deliverance and provision as they headed to Cannan. But none of that helped when the spies came back with the evil report. They fell into unbelief concerning taking the land.

And God would not accept their repentance. Moses warned them. Don't go up now. (Num. 14:41-43) But incredibly, they wouldn't listen and went up anyway and were blodied and bruised by their enemies. (Num. 14:44-45)

My point here is that just because God did not accept their repentance, didn't mean they were no longer saved, no longer His people. And even though they didn't get to enter the promised land, God provided for them miraculously for another 40 years wandering in the wilderness.

They fell away into unbelief though having witnessed and experienced the wonders of God. God therefore would not allow them to repent. Still saved, but failed to enter into all that God had for them. Their salvation and Heaven was sealed at the Passover. Canaan was not Heaven.

I still have one more definition, the 2nd of the two mentioned earlier, to explain.

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Lees

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Continuing:

I said earlier that (Heb. 6:4-6) is a serious warning, but not the loss of eternal life. Two definitions were needed. The first was the Promised Land' or 'Canaan'. That has been addressed. The 2nd is the 'Rock in the wilderness'.

2.) The Rock in the wilderness. This is the Rock from which water came forth to provide for the Israelites in the wilderness. We have the definition of it in (1 Cor. 10:4) "...for they drank of that spiritual lRock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. The historical record of this event is found in (Ex. 17:1-7). Without doubt that Rock represented Jesus Christ.

Why is this important concerning (Heb. 6:4-6)? Because it will define what is meant in (Heb. 6:6) by "crucifying to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame".

In the account in (Ex. 17) the Israelites were out of water and felt they were about to die. They complained to Moses that he had brought them out of Egypt just to kill them. (17:3) Moses in turn, turned to God. God told him to take his rod and smite the Rock. (17:5-6) And so he did. Remember, that Rock was Christ. Christ was in a figure, being smitten. This speaks to his Crucifixcion.

Years later, after the Israelites failure at Kadesh-Barnea, and their sentence to wander and die in the wilderness for their unbelief, we find them in that wilderness wanderning. And they once again are out of water. And they once again complained to Moses just as they did years before. And once again Moses turned to God.

But, this time God told Moses to take the same rod and speak to the Rock. (Num. 20:8) "...and speak ye unto the rock before their eyes; and it shall give forth his water....." But...Moses was angry. He was worn out by the peoples constant complaining. His temper got the best of him. What did he do? He smote the Rock again, just like before instead of speaking to it. Not just once but twice. (Num. 20:10-11) "...Hear now, ye rebels; must we fetch you water out of this rock? And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his rod he smote the rock twice...."

That Rock was Christ. The first time Moses smote the Rock that was the Crucifixcion. But when Moses smote the Rock the 2nd time, that was crucifying Jesus Christ again and putting Him to open shame. (Heb. 6:6) Understand we are talking about Moses, the man of God that had a relation with God unlike any other. Moses is guilty of the sin of falling away, as described in (Heb. 6:6). Just as the Israelites were guilty at Kadesh-Barnea. And God is not pleased.

God passes sentence on Moses for this. He shall not bring Israel into the promised land for his unbelief. (Num. 20:12-13) Neither he or Aaron. Later, Moses sought repentance, and asked the Lord to let him go over into the land. (Deut. 3:24-25) But the LORD was adamant. He would not allow it. (Deut. 3:26) He was not allowed to repent.

Does anyone doubt that Moses is in Heaven with God and Christ? Of course he is. But God did not allow him all that he could have had in the promised land.

My point is this. (Heb. 6:4-6) is a serious warning to believers. Your walk of salvation, your growth as a believer, will be affected. But your salvation of eternal life is secured, and does not change. And these verses, used by many to show that you can lose your salvation, show just the opposite.

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Nazareth

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Heb 6:4-6 . . For it is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who
have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted
the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall
away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying
the Son of God afresh and subjecting him to public disgrace.

We know that with God nothing is impossible. So, I think we have to acquiesce that
the impossibility spoken of here is so because God has made it His mission in life,
so to speak, to assure that folks blessed with the level of advantages spoken of
here are never to be given an opportunity to reconsider-- ever!
_
Once saved always saved.In otherwords, everything that God appoints to the new convert,indwelling by his Holy Spirit, regeneration, etc... would have to be reversed everytime we sin.Or should we fall from faith .

I know of no verses where Jesus said that happens.
All that the Father gives him are his. That he will lose none. And no one shall take us from his hand.
 
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SetFree

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Heb 6:4-6 . . For it is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who
have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted
the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall
away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying
the Son of God afresh and subjecting him to public disgrace.

We know that with God nothing is impossible. So, I think we have to acquiesce that
the impossibility spoken of here is so because God has made it His mission in life,
so to speak, to assure that folks blessed with the level of advantages spoken of
here are never to be given an opportunity to reconsider-- ever!
_
It ultimately reveals that it is... possible for even one given direct evidence of through spiritual gifts proof of existence of God and His Son still can make the choice to fall away from Christ.
 
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