Gift of Tongues

[Albion]

I agree. Its very pushy and unstructured.
Much dogma has already incorporated itself into her but in all honesty it has transformed myself and others in what seems to be an instant. Very quickening indeed.
It needs major changes of its views on outside churches. Its supposed to be in my understanding, the original apostolic church that Catholicism ("pagan rome") had entered into to retain its dominance and is now returned to rapture the true and faithful christians. No one has out right said this but I gather this and that and it really doesnt change my mind that all who believe in Christ will not be let down. Walk into a pentecostal and most likely you will re examine your faithfulness to the Lord and fall down in worship on to repentance. Every church has its short comings but there is a reason for this "new" rescue church to come in to play in our current days.
There is something being overlooked or missed and I think it has something to do with an integration of some sorts. It has some power in it but its guided by outside judgments and is very cautious of protecting itself to the point of overkill.
Keep in mind that Christianity was a "cult" as defined by the church state of ancient pagan rome at the time and this movement of Pentecostalism is considered a "cult" among the mainstream of Christianity which is mostly Catholicism and much of Protestant, they are both against the Pentecostals.
I can see why, an invisible wounded head is trying to manifest itself through the UPCI when fellowship as I included, agrees hardly at all with its wiley impositions. Pray for us that if this church be truly of God that it may not fall short by the grace of God and suffer its persecution by humility at most.

I appreciate much of what you've written here, but on the matter of cults, the reason that the pagan Romans considered the early church to be a cult was because they were convinced that it was a bunch of atheists. Interesting, huh? But there is no reason to care what the Romans thought. And the reason that the UPCI is considered to be a cult by many Christians today--but NOT other Pentecostal churches such as the Church of God and the Assemblies of God--is because the UPCI denies the nature of Christ, his identity as the second person of the Trinity.

 

[Andrew]

Anyway...
Paul describes the sound of the voice of "tongues" as barbaric to another person as this language is unknown to man

From wikipedia...
The term originates from the*Greek:βάρβαρος*(barbaros*pl. βάρβαροι*barbaroi), which in turn originates from the incomprehensible languages of early Anatolian nations that were heard by the Greeks as "bar..bar.." In*ancient times, the*Greeks*used it mostly for people of different cultures, but there are examples where one Greek city or state would use the word to attack another.[citation needed]*In the*early modern period*and sometimes later, Greeks used it for the*Turks, in a clearly*pejorativeway.*Comparable notions are found in non-European civilizations, notably*China*and*Japan. During the*Roman Empire, the Romans used the word "barbarian" for many people, such as the*Germanics,*Celts,*Gauls,*Iberians,*Thracians,*Illyrians,*Parthians,*Berbers*and*Sarmatians.


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[Andrew]

I appreciate much of what you've written here, but on the matter of cults, the reason that the pagan Romans considered the early church to be a cult was because they were convinced that it was a bunch of atheists. Interesting, huh? But there is no reason to care what the Romans thought. And the reason that the UPCI is considered to be a cult by many Christians today--but NOT other Pentecostal churches such as the Church of God and the Assemblies of God--is because the UPCI denies the nature of Christ, his identity as the second person of the Trinity.

Right the UPCI is drafting up false dogmas to try and push on Pentecostals but we don't all adhere to those beliefs. We praise God the father who is Christ and the Holy Spirit, God is a spirit and these are the three manifestations of that spirit.
We dont praise them individually but as One, in other words we dont praise each one separately...

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[Albion]

Right the UPCI is drafting up false dogmas to try and push on Pentecostals but we don't all adhere to those beliefs. We praise God the father who is Christ and the Holy Spirit, God is a spirit and these are the three manifestations of that spirit.
We dont praise them individually but as One, in other words we dont praise each one separately...

FWIW, what you've identified here as your belief (and that of your church) is the same as that which gets the UPCI labelled a cult. The UPCI may have other characteristics that are questionable, but this is what causes it to be listed as a cult.

And, while I don't get especially agitated about some churches technically being cults, I think you oughtn't be in any doubt about "whos who" whenever this issue arises.

 

[Imalive]

They said Jesus had a cult too.

 

[Andrew]

FWIW, what you've identified here as your belief (and that of your church) is the same as that which gets the UPCI labelled a cult. The UPCI may have other characteristics that are questionable, but this is what causes it to be listed as a cult.

And, while I don't get overly agitated about some churches technically being cults, I think you oughtn't be in doubt about who's who when this issue surfaces.

Its the same difference, the three are one and the one are three, what I dont like about the upci is that they are antitrinity as I am not, like that guest speaker, he was bashing the Catholic faith and that where the whole UPC got brought up in the first place. We preach God and his son Jesus Christ and the Holy spirit and we give glory onto Jesus, basically we have the same belief as any other church, its all the same.
The Spirit is God there are no spirits of God just one, but three manifestations. I am not UPC or UPCI but I hate that this counterfeit claims to be the spokesmen for all Pentecostals, they are making it seem as though I am apart of it but I am not in a cult.
Mormonism is a cult. Our house worships the Lord.
When Jesus talked of Abraham as pleasing him they were confused because how could Abraham be devoted to Jesus, and Jesus replied "before Abraham was, I AM" God changes not. God is a spirit, not spirit and not spirits, God is Love and "I and the father are one" one spirit, the Holy Spirit. The Ruach Hako'desh.
The only difference is how we pray it, Catholics pray "In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" and we pray "Father/(or)God......... ....in Jesus name amen"

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[MennoSota]

Samaritans claimed to worship God. Jesus corrected the woman at the well and the entire Samaritan community that came out to meet him.
Denying the Being called God represented by the person of God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit is a denial of scripture and thus a false doctrine. It makes the group a legitimate cult and not a part of the body of Christ.

 

[Imalive]

Samaritans claimed to worship God. Jesus corrected the woman at the well and the entire Samaritan community that came out to meet him.
Denying the Being called God represented by the person of God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit is a denial of scripture and thus a false doctrine. It makes the group a legitimate cult and not a part of the body of Christ.

Where is that in the Bible? I know church doctrin says it. In the Bible I only see if you deny Jesus you deny the Father. They deny neither. I don't believe they see it correct, but trinitarians say Jesus is not the Father and Isaiah 9:6 says Jesus is called eternal Father and then they just dismiss the text or say it's a title.
Stephan saw the Glory of God btw and Jesus at His right hand.
I believe the Father is Father, Son and Holy Spirit cause they're all called YHWH. I am YHWH the Father. I am YHWH the Son. I am YHWH the Holy Spirit.
The difference is hard to see but He's one Person and 3 Persons in Genesis.

Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

Jesus is the Image of God and He's called eternal Father, cause although He is the Son in Him the fulness of the Godhead dwells bodily.
Anyways I dont believe it matters if someone believes 3 Persons or 3 Manifestations as long as they believe He's One and don't deny Jesus or the Father.

 

[MennoSota]

[MENTION=378]Imalive[/MENTION]
The being is God. The person's of the being called God are the Father, the Son and the Spirit.
Three persons in One being.

 

[Imalive]

[MENTION=378]Imalive[/MENTION]
The being is God. The person's of the being called God are the Father, the Son and the Spirit.
Three persons in One being.

What is a being?
A person maybe?
What was Jesus? The Father spoke, He said only what the Father said, the Holy Spirit did the miracles, Jesus only did miracles after He was baptized in the Holy Spirit.
I can't blame someone for not seeing 3 Persons if they saw Jesus walk around.

 

[MennoSota]

What is a being?
A person maybe?
What was Jesus? The Father spoke, He said only what the Father said, the Holy Spirit did the miracles, Jesus only did miracles after He was baptized in the Holy Spirit.
I can't blame someone for not seeing 3 Persons if they saw Jesus walk around.

God is an eternal being. He is like nothing else. The person's of that being are the Father, the Son and the Spirit.

God is not a human "being". God is a being that is eternal. Never created, always existing, being like none other.

The person called the Son, of that being called God, shed his clothing and reclothed himself as a human. It is quite a remarkable thing.

 

[Imalive]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4et_yrjlpbc

 

[Albion]

Its the same difference, the three are one and the one are three, what I dont like about the upci is that they are antitrinity as I am not

You've completely baffled me, DH. In your previous post you laid out a clearly anti-Trinitarian viewpoint and claimed it was what you believe...and now you are saying that UPCI is anti trinity (which is true) and you are not. It cant be both.

The Spirit is God there are no spirits of God just one, but three manifestations.** I am not UPC or UPCI but I hate that this counterfeit claims to be the spokesmen for all Pentecostals, they are making it seem as though I am apart of it but I am not in a cult.
Mormonism is a cult. Our house worships the Lord.

Yeh, that's what the Mormons say, too.

** 'three manifestations'' equals a rejection of the Trinity

 

[Andrew]

You've completely baffled me, DH. In your previous post you laid out a clearly anti-Trinitarian viewpoint and claimed it was what you believe...and now you are saying that UPCI is anti trinity (which is true) and you are not. It cant be both.

Yeh, that's what the Mormons say, too.

** 'three manifestations'' equals a rejection of the Trinity

Anti-trinity means against trinity, I am not against the trinity I just see the trinity as God dont you? we pray to God we believe in God we talk to God we hear God we walk with God.
God is I AM, Jesus is I AM, I AM is a spirit therefore God is a spirit and that spirit is the Holy Spirit. They are all one. The Trinity was never taught until the 3rd century, and when you read the trinity creed it still boils down to they are all One. Before this creed the Jews and Christians already believed in the oneness of God, and that a virgin full of the Holy Spirit gave birth to Jesus Christ Gods only begotten son who died on the cross was resurrected and ascended in flesh into Heaven where he sits on the right side of God. We know the story and we were fine with it, we still pray to God none the less. The problem was that these creeds were unnecessary and it just caused confusion and a split in theology, it became a stumbling block and anyone who did not agree with this creed were martyred or excommunicated both from church and their family. If the apostles taught on the Trinity then the church would have never made such a creed. Instead Paul foresaw a deception taking place in the church with false doctrines coming in.

This 6th Century creed caused many to die by the hands of evil men in the church. This is when the trinity was first introduced by the church causing much persecution.
_________
The*Athanasian Creed, also known as Pseudo-Athanasian Creed*or Quicunque Vult (also Quicumque Vult), is a Christian statement of belief focused on Trinitarian doctrine and Christology. ... It is the first*creed*in which the equality of the three persons of the Trinity is explicitly stated.
-wikipedia
_________

Whoever desires to be saved should above all hold to the catholic faith.

Anyone who does not keep it whole and unbroken will doubtless perish eternally.

Now this is the catholic faith:

*** That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity,
*** neither blending their persons
*** nor dividing their essence.
******* For the person of the Father is a distinct person,
******* the person of the Son is another,
******* and that of the Holy Spirit still another.
******* But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one,
******* their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.

*** What quality the Father has, the Son has, and the Holy Spirit has.
******* The Father is uncreated,
******* the Son is uncreated,
******* the Holy Spirit is uncreated.

******* The Father is immeasurable,
******* the Son is immeasurable,
******* the Holy Spirit is immeasurable.

******* The Father is eternal,
******* the Son is eternal,
******* the Holy Spirit is eternal.

*********** And yet there are not three eternal beings;
*********** there is but one eternal being.
*********** So too there are not three uncreated or immeasurable beings;
*********** there is but one uncreated and immeasurable being.

*** Similarly, the Father is almighty,
******* the Son is almighty,
******* the Holy Spirit is almighty.
*********** Yet there are not three almighty beings;
*********** there is but one almighty being.

******* Thus the Father is God,
******* the Son is God,
******* the Holy Spirit is God.
*********** Yet there are not three gods;
*********** there is but one God.

******* Thus the Father is Lord,
******* the Son is Lord,
******* the Holy Spirit is Lord.
*********** Yet there are not three lords;
*********** there is but one Lord.

*** Just as Christian truth compels us
*** to confess each person individually
*** as both God and Lord,
*** so catholic religion forbids us
*** to say that there are three gods or lords.

*** The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone.
*** The Son was neither made nor created;
*** he was begotten from the Father alone.
*** The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten;
*** he proceeds from the Father and the Son.

*** Accordingly there is one Father, not three fathers;
*** there is one Son, not three sons;
*** there is one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.

*** Nothing in this trinity is before or after,
*** nothing is greater or smaller;
*** in their entirety the three persons
*** are coeternal and coequal with each other.

*** So in everything, as was said earlier,
*** we must worship their trinity in their unity
*** and their unity in their trinity.

Anyone then who desires to be saved
should think thus about the trinity.

But it is necessary for eternal salvation
that one also believe in the incarnation
of our Lord Jesus Christ faithfully.

Now this is the true faith:

*** That we believe and confess
*** that our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son,
*** is both God and human, equally.

**** He is God from the essence of the Father,
*** begotten before time;
*** and he is human from the essence of his mother,
*** born in time;
*** completely God, completely human,
*** with a rational soul and human flesh;
*** equal to the Father as regards divinity,
*** less than the Father as regards humanity.

*** Although he is God and human,
*** yet Christ is not two, but one.
*** He is one, however,
*** not by his divinity being turned into flesh,
*** but by God's taking humanity to himself.
*** He is one,
*** certainly not by the blending of his essence,
*** but by the unity of his person.
*** For just as one human is both rational soul and flesh,
*** so too the one Christ is both God and human.

*** He suffered for our salvation;
*** he descended to hell;
*** he arose from the dead;
*** he ascended to heaven;
*** he is seated at the Father's right hand;
*** from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.
*** At his coming all people will arise bodily
*** and give an accounting of their own deeds.
*** Those who have done good will enter eternal life,
*** and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.

This is the catholic faith:
one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully.



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[Albion]

Anti-trinity means against trinity, I am not against the trinity I just see the trinity as God dont you? we pray to God we believe in God we talk to God we hear God we walk with God.

According to a number of your posts, you just don't believe in the doctrine of the Trinity, that's all.

My purpose was not to argue with you, but first to be sure what you were saying about your belief, and then to inform you that this idea of manifestations or that Christ is the Father, constitutes a denial of belief in the Trinity. It has been debated by theologians and Bible scholars many times.

Also, what the religious definition of a cult is. I thought that you at least ought to know that.

Cheers.

 

[Andrew]

According to a number of your posts, you just don't believe in the doctrine of the Trinity, that's all.

My purpose was not to argue with you, but first to be sure what you were saying about your belief, and then to inform you that this idea of manifestations or that Christ is the Father, constitutes a denial of belief in the Trinity. It has been debated by theologians and Bible scholars many times.

Also, what the religious definition of a cult is. I thought that you at least ought to know that.

Cheers.

The trinity doctrine was man made centuries after the apostles died.
Of course pagan rome hated the apostolic church and tried to paganize Christianity, this was forewarned by the apostles that an apostasy would arise in the church (the roman catholic church)
Constantine legalized Christianity in Roman empire and turned all the pagan temples into apostolic churches but then it became "the church lives under roman law" so now it wasnt the bishops of rome ruling over the church it was the emperors to make changes in the apostolic church.
And now he have paganism coming into the church.
This is why the Trinity was such a big thing for them

Deut 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

Sumeria

“The universe was divided into three regions each of which became the domain of a god. Anu’s share was the sky. The earth was given to Enlil. Ea became the ruler of the waters.*Together they constituted the triad of the Great Gods”*(The Larousse Encyclopedia of Mythology,1994, pp.*54-55)

Babylonia

“The ancient Babylonians*recognised the doctrine of a trinity, or three persons in one god—*as appears from a composite god with three heads forming part of their mythology, and the use of the equilateral triangle, also, as an emblem of such trinity in unity” (Thomas Dennis Rock,*The Mystical Woman and the Cities of the Nations,*1867, pp.*22-23).

India

“The Puranas, one of the Hindoo Bibles of more than 3,000 years ago, contain the following passage: ‘O ye three Lords! know that I recognize only one God. Inform me, therefore, which of you is the true divinity, that I may address to him alone my adorations.’ The three gods, Brahma, Vishnu, and Siva [or Shiva], becoming manifest to him, replied, ‘Learn, O devotee, that there is no real distinction between us. What to you appears such is only the semblance.*The single being appears under three forms*by the acts of creation, preservation, and destruction,*but he is*one.’

“Hence the triangle was adopted by all the ancient nations as a symbol of the Deity .*.*. Three was considered among all the pagan nations as the chief of the mystical numbers, because, as Aristotle remarks, it contains within itself a beginning, a middle, and an end. Hence we find it designating some of the attributes of almost all the pagan gods” (Sinclair, pp.*382-383).

Greece

“In the Fourth Century*B.C.*Aristotle wrote: ‘All things are three, and thrice is all: and let us use this number in the worship of the gods; for, as the Pythagoreans say, everything and all things are bounded by threes, for the end, the middle and the beginning have this number in everything, and these compose the number of the Trinity’ ” (Arthur Weigall,*Paganism in Our Christianity,*1928, pp.*197-198).

Egypt

“The*Hymn to Amun*decreed that ‘No god came into being before him (Amun)’ and that*‘All gods are three:*Amun, Re and Ptah, and there is no second to them. Hidden is his name as Amon, he is Re in face, and his body is Ptah.’ .*.*.*This is a statement of trinity, the three chief gods of Egypt subsumed into one of them, Amon.*Clearly, the concept of organic unity within plurality got an extraordinary boost with this formulation.*Theologically, in a crude form it came strikingly close to the later Christian form of plural Trinitarian monotheism”*(Simson Najovits,*Egypt, Trunk of the Tree,*Vol. 2, 2004, pp.*83-84).

Other*areas

Many other areas had their own divine trinities. In Greece they were Zeus, Poseidon and Adonis. The Phoenicians worshipped Ulomus, Ulosuros and Eliun. Rome worshipped Jupiter, Neptune and Pluto. In Germanic nations they were called Wodan, Thor and Fricco. Regarding the Celts, one source states, “The ancient heathen deities of the pagan Irish[,] Criosan, Biosena, and Seeva, or Sheeva, are doubtless the Creeshna [Krishna], Veeshnu [Vishnu], [or the all-inclusive] Brahma, and Seeva [Shiva], of the Hindoos” (Thomas Maurice,*The History of Hindostan,*Vol. 2, 1798, p.*171).

“The origin of the conception is entirely*pagan”

Egyptologist Arthur Weigall, while himself a Trinitarian, summed up the influence of ancient beliefs on the adoption of the Trinity doctrine by the Catholic Church in the following excerpt from his previously cited*book:

“It must not be forgotten that Jesus Christ never mentioned such a phenomenon [the Trinity], and nowhere in the New Testament does the word ‘Trinity’ appear. The idea was only adopted by the Church three hundred years after the death of our Lord;*and the origin of the conception is entirely pagan*.*.*.

“The ancient Egyptians, whose influence on early religious thought was profound, usually arranged their gods or goddesses in trinities:*there was the trinity of Osiris, Isis, and Horus, the trinity of Amen, Mut, and Khonsu, the trinity of Khnum, Satis, and Anukis, and so forth*…

“The early Christians, however,*did not at first think of applying the idea to their own faith.*They paid their devotions to God the Father and to Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and they recognized the mysterious and undefined existence of the Holy Spirit;*but there was no thought of these three being an actual Trinity, co-equal and united in One*.*.*.

“The application of this old pagan conception of a Trinity to Christian theology*was made possible by the recognition of the Holy Spirit as the required third ‘Person,’ co-equal with the other ‘Persons’*.*.*.

“The idea of the Spirit being co-equal with God*was not generally recognised until the second half of the Fourth Century*A.D.*… In the year 381 the Council of Constantinople added to the earlier Nicene Creed a description of the Holy Spirit as ‘the Lord, and giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father, who with the Father and Son together is worshipped and glorified.’*…

“Thus, the Athanasian creed, which is a later composition but reflects the general conceptions of Athanasius [the 4th-century Trinitarian whose view eventually became official doctrine] and his school, formulated the conception of a co-equal Trinity wherein the Holy Spirit was the third ‘Person’; and*so it was made a dogma of the faith, and belief in the Three in One and One in Three became a paramount doctrine of Christianity,*though not without terrible riots and bloodshed*.*.*.

“Today a Christian thinker .*.*. has no wish to be precise about it, more especially since*the definition is obviously pagan in origin and was not adopted by the Church until nearly three hundred years after Christ”*(pp.*197-203).

James Bonwick summarized the story well on page 396 of his 1878 work*Egyptian Belief and Modern Thought:*“It is an undoubted fact that*more or less all over the world the deities are in triads.This rule applies to eastern and western hemispheres, to north and*south.

“Further, it is observed that, in some mystical way, the triad of three persons is one. The first is as the second or third, the second as first or third, the third as first or second; in fact, they are each other, one and the same individual being.*The definition of Athanasius,*who lived in Egypt,*applies to the trinities of all heathen*religions.”
.
Deut 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one
This video compares religious symbolism from pagan rome into the catholic church among which is the trinity created by men
https://youtu.be/hlv-8aM_Cf4

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[Albion]

Its the same difference, the three are one and the one are three, what I dont like about the upci is that they are antitrinity as I am not

What you seem not to understand is that three of something or other may be called a kind of trinity or a triad, but the Christian teaching about the nature of God that is called the Trinitarian belief has a specific meaning which is in accord with what the Bible teaches. To say that the church invented it is incorrect. She attempted to explain it in the Creed but did so on the basis of what the Bible teaches.

 

[Andrew]

What you seem not to understand is that three of something or other may be called a kind of trinity or a triad, but the Christian teaching about the nature of God that is called the Trinitarian belief has a specific meaning which is in accord with what the Bible teaches. To say that the church invented it is incorrect. She attempted to explain it in the Creed but did so on the basis of what the Bible teaches.

What does the bible teach about the trinity?

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[MoreCoffee]

DHoffmann, There's no special reason why you ought to accept advice from me but I am going to give a little now. Find yourself another fellowship, something that is Trinitarian in doctrine and that teaches the incarnation of the Lord Jesus Christ rightly. Ease yourself out of the UPCI, for the love of God and the salvation of your soul.

 

[Albion]

My friend, this--and your own theory about the nature of God--provide such a large number of intricacies that I really urge you to engage in a careful study of the Bible with regard to this important matter. Do not just absorb whatever that unorthodox church you attend tells you, not any more than the fractured church history you have been relaying to us online. But so as not to completely turn aside the question you put to me, I offer this simplified overview for starters.

Leaving aside the oneness of God on which we agree, an also the Holy Spirit for the sake of brevity, consider all that is said about the separate identities of the Father and Son (while remaining but one God).


1 John 1:2 “(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and show unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;
3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.”


The Bible then goes on to warn about denying the Father and Son.


1 John 2:22 “Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.


John explains that there never was a time when God existed without being the Father and begotten Son. The Scriptures to show this follow:


1 John 4:9 “In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.”


It cannot be, therefore, that the Father was just putting on a different face or taking on a different role by becoming the Son, Jesus Christ, himself.



Two very distinct persons (not individuals!) are identified, even though there is but one God.


1 John 1:2 “For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and show unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;”