Free from the Law, oh blessed condition! I can sin as I please and still have remission.

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The topic comes from a little rhyme that Gordon Clarke wrote in his book What Do Presbyterians Believe I think he thought that some Presbyterians believed nothing at the time he was writing in the 1960s.

So, are we, as Christians, free from the law and is that a blessed condition and does it mean that we can sin as we please and still have remission? Is this part of the LAW-GOSPEL divide that some say is so important?
 

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We Christians are free from the law to live our lives as the redeemed. But to consciously sin could turn us against God...not that it does automatically though. When we consciously sin, as believers, we have the Holy Spirit still working within us and He uses the Law to show us that we have sinned and then turns us back to Him by grace through faith. Consciously sinning does not equal an immediate ticket to hell though.

So here's the Law: If we consciously sin, we could forfeit our salvation by turning away from God.
Here's the Gospel: God is forgiving and Christ's sacrifice on the cross forgives our sins. He turns us to Him in repentance and forgiveness is given.
 

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So, are we, as Christians, free from the law and is that a blessed condition and does it mean that we can sin as we please and still have remission? Is this part of the LAW-GOSPEL divide that some say is so important?
Do you really have such a great DESIRE to sin?
Is that REALLY what would please you?

I lived in great sin prior to my salvation. I felt no guilt or restraint holding me back, merely weighing the “risk vs reward” of legal/illegal and the potential consequences. I held ZERO fear of condemnation and hell - being both an atheist and nihilist. However, it brought me no joy, merely unhappiness to the brink of suicide.

So I have NEVER followed the LAW out of fear or obligation. I do what is pleasing to God because HE a changed my heart and now … doing what pleases Him is what brings me joy, while doing what displeases God never brought joy.

“True LOVE drives out all fear” … God said that, and truer words were never written.

So I have to wonder at your dilemma.
 

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The topic comes from a little rhyme that Gordon Clarke wrote in his book What Do Presbyterians Believe I think he thought that some Presbyterians believed nothing at the time he was writing in the 1960s.

So, are we, as Christians, free from the law and is that a blessed condition and does it mean that we can sin as we please and still have remission? Is this part of the LAW-GOSPEL divide that some say is so important?
Oh I thought Weird Al.
 

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I get so tired of the do this do that. I think I'm gonna block all those christian preachers on Facebook. You have to evangelize and save everyone. You have to do your calling. So annoying those people. Reminds me of a guy on a tv program called Man bites dog. They asked him if he wanted a wife and he said: no they sound like an ambulance: do this do that do this do that.
 

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The topic comes from a little rhyme that Gordon Clarke wrote in his book What Do Presbyterians Believe I think he thought that some Presbyterians believed nothing at the time he was writing in the 1960s.

So, are we, as Christians, free from the law and is that a blessed condition and does it mean that we can sin as we please and still have remission? Is this part of the LAW-GOSPEL divide that some say is so important?
There is false teaching, that they turn God's grace into lewdness, but normally they don't preach that. In our church they always said: Stay in the middle of the road. Not legalistic and not lawless. Too much law and legalism is: do this do that or else God hates you and you go to hell, which at times can be good to say if someone really lives in sin, cheats with the neighbour or something, but I got that kind of preaching in the 2nd church I was in, which was cultish and I just left. I was just saved a few years, 18 years old. One time a Sunday to church was enough for me, but they had 2 services each Sunday. I rather went in the morning and then biked for fun instead of going again. That was not appreciated. Next Sunday, oh and he said he was God's personal mouth piece, he said that if we kept on sinning by not going to church there was no forgiveness possible anymore. That text from Paul pulled out of context to make you come twice a sunday. I played guitar there, so with me there (super tiny group) he prayed: Lord give us a faithful guitar player! (not like this lousy unfaithful one who only shows up once a sunday) So then I had enough and I really thought God said that through His mouth piece, so I quit going. My mom took me to her church and then all of a sudden God was full of love and so happy with you. In another church I got OSAS preaching, which was great cause I always felt condemned. But they can go too far with that and then you have lawlessness.
It's both dangerous. Either you let satan accuse you and try to work hard to be good enough to be loved by God or what I saw some say you get total false teaching, like refuse to forgive and you still go to heaven, also if you don't repent of that ever. A guy on another forum said that. And all those examples, even the sower and the unfruitful ones, no that was fine. They were saved. That is dangerous. It goes totally against what Jesus said and if someone is not bad it may not matter if they hear that, but what if someone really refuses to forgive and now thinks: oh no problem. The preacher said it was fine. Or lgtbq stuff. They preach that now in churches that it's fine.
 
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So, are we, as Christians, free from the law and is that a blessed condition and does it mean that we can sin as we please and still have remission? Is this part of the LAW-GOSPEL divide that some say is so important?

Yes, we as Christians are free from the law, which is a blessed condition. The reason we still have remission when we sin is not solely based on being free from the Law. That is based upon the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ, and God's work of 'imputation'. And that is unchangeable, securing the believer in his salvation.

The divide I see is usually Law/Grace. Does Grace, being free from the Law, mean I preach or teach that the Christian is free to sin all he wants? Of course not. But It means that when the Christian does sin, he is still secure in his salvation.

In the Church, I find that the tendency is to put more law on the Christian than Grace. It's just our human nature to want to earn or deserve something, and very hard to change.

I do like to remember this. Paul in (Rom. 3:5-8) said it was reported that he preached Grace and that he said 'Let us do evil, that good may come'. (3:8) Which he denied and said those that accuse him of that, their damnation is just. (3:8)

So Paul did not preach that, but the Grace he preached came across to many as though he did preach that. This causes me to think about the Grace we present to others. In other words, has anyone ever accused me as they accused Paul? It is my opinion that if I haven't been accused of that, then I have not really preached Grace.

When I listen to a preacher or Bible teacher, I listen to hear the Grace they preach. And try and see if I could accuse them of teaching Grace to the extent you can go out and sin all you want, as they accused Paul.

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Yes, we as Christians are free from the law, which is a blessed condition. The reason we still have remission when we sin is not solely based on being free from the Law. That is based upon the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ, and God's work of 'imputation'. And that is unchangeable, securing the believer in his salvation.

The divide I see is usually Law/Grace. Does Grace, being free from the Law, mean I preach or teach that the Christian is free to sin all he wants? Of course not. But It means that when the Christian does sin, he is still secure in his salvation.

In the Church, I find that the tendency is to put more law on the Christian than Grace. It's just our human nature to want to earn or deserve something, and very hard to change.

I do like to remember this. Paul in (Rom. 3:5-8) said it was reported that he preached Grace and that he said 'Let us do evil, that good may come'. (3:8) Which he denied and said those that accuse him of that, their damnation is just. (3:8)

So Paul did not preach that, but the Grace he preached came across to many as though he did preach that. This causes me to think about the Grace we present to others. In other words, has anyone ever accused me as they accused Paul? It is my opinion that if I haven't been accused of that, then I have not really preached Grace.

When I listen to a preacher or Bible teacher, I listen to hear the Grace they preach. And try and see if I could accuse them of teaching Grace to the extent you can go out and sin all you want, as they accused Paul.

Lees
I once saw a comment from a Messianic Jewish woman who asked something like: but are those gentile christians really saved? They eat pork. They don't keep the Sabbath. She was really worried and I was like: What? This exists?
 

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~
I once saw a comment from a Messianic Jewish woman who asked something like:
but are those gentile christians really saved? They eat pork. They don't keep the
Sabbath. She was really worried and I was like: What? This exists?

Christ's followers are exempt from Jewish dietary laws because their association
with God is by means of a different covenant than the covenant that Moses' people
entered into with God per Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.

Noah was exempt too. He was given permission by Gen 9:3 to eat whatever; and
that's because the codified laws and rules of Moses' covenant aren't retroactive.
(Deut 5:2-3 & Gal 3:17)
_
 

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During dialogue with a Jewish man several years ago, I was asked a very pertinent
question that went like this:

"Jesus died for your sins up to the point of your conversion. What about the sins
you are committing now?"

That's a reasonable question coming from a Jew because Levitical atonements had
to be repeated over and over again. Even Yom Kippur, the great day of atonement,
is only useful up to that point and from thence Jews began accumulating sins
towards the next Yom Kippur.

Now supposing God were to stop keeping track of a Jew's sins on Yom Kippur?
Well; that would be the cat's meow because the Jew would then need to avail
himself of the great day of atonement but one time only rather than repeatedly
year after year after year.

Well; the covenant that Moses' people agreed upon with God per Exodus, Leviticus,
Numbers, and Deuteronomy doesn't allow for God to stop holding His people's sins
against them; whereas Christ's crucifixion is much better than Yom Kippur because
it does allow for God to stop.

2Cor 5:19 . . God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting
men's sins against them.

The Greek word translated "counting" pertains to inventory, i.e. an indictment.
Well, needless to say; without an indictment, prosecutors have no grounds for
hauling someone into court.

** There's a bit of a moral hazard under these circumstances. Due to the fact that
Jesus' followers are on an honor system instead of a legal system, they have an
incentive to become ever more sinful; hence Paul's urging them to cultivate self
restraint.

Rom 6:1-3 . . What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may
increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?

Rom 6:12-14 . . Do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil
desires. Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness,
but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to
life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness.

Gal 5:13 . .You, my brethren, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom
to indulge the sinful nature.


FAQ: If God is no longer keeping tabs on the sins of His son's followers, then what's
with 1John 1:5-10?


REPLY: God desires fellowship with His son's followers; which of course requires
transparency on their part. But the important thing is: according to John 5:24
nothing Jesus' followers do now goes in the books to be used against them later on
down the road at the great white throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15. Their sins
are no longer criminal matters, instead; now they're family matters. (1John 3:1-2)
_
 

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I once saw a comment from a Messianic Jewish woman who asked something like: but are those gentile christians really saved? They eat pork. They don't keep the Sabbath. She was really worried and I was like: What? This exists?

Yes, it certainly exists. A good point to remember is that the Law never saved one soul. Jesus Christ fulfilled all the Law. But Jesus Christ was never in a 'lost' condition needing to be saved.

For all the generations under the Law, none were ever saved by the Law. They continually broke the Law. Thus their walk of salvation would be restored by their continual trying to follow the Law.

Everyone's salvation, the move from a lost state to having eternal life, is only by faith. Has always been only by faith.

Lees
 

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I once saw a comment from a Messianic Jewish woman who asked something like: but are those gentile christians really saved? They eat pork. They don't keep the Sabbath. She was really worried and I was like: What? This exists?

Those laws are important to her, as if she would suddenly lose salvation. That's why even though she waits for a Messiah, she doesn't understand the concept of God's true grace.
 

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~
Jews are the the primary target audience of the epistle to Hebrews. (Heb 1:1-2)

So then, you Christians out there be careful with passages like this one:

Heb 10:26 . . If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the
knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left.

That's a reiteration of Num 15:30-31.

It should go without saying that in a letter written intended for Jews, a "knowledge
of the truth" refers to the covenant that Moses' people agreed upon with God per
Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy, a.k.a. Moses' Law.

It's very easy for poorly-catechized Gentiles to err by assuming Num 15:30-31
applies to everybody; even to Christ's followers. But his followers associate with
God via a different covenant, in point of fact, a much better covenant because it
protects habitual sinners whereas Moses' covenant doesn't.

"But the person, be he citizen or stranger, who acts defiantly reviles the Lord; that
person shall be cut off from among his people. Because he has spurned the word of
the Lord and violated His commandment, that person shall be cut off-- he bears his
guilt."

Also Deut 27:26, which says:

"Cursed is the man who does not uphold the words of this law by carrying them
out."

There are comprehensive lists of curses in Moses' law located at Lev 26:14-39,
Deut 27:15-26, and Deut 28:15-68. The good news is: Christ's followers are
immune to every one of them, whereas Jews are in grave danger of them all.


NOTE: Not all that long ago, the US President's son Hunter Biden requested a plea
bargain agreement that would protect him from crimes he might commit in the
future. Well; the judge wouldn't go for it. But God, via the cross, is prepared to
offer Hunter something very similar-- though for now he might have to serve some
time behind bars but at least he wouldn't end up facing justice at the great white
throne event depicted by Rev 20:11-15 where the lost are on track to be punished
by a mode of death akin to a foundry worker falling into a kettle of molten iron.
_
 
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Messy3

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~
Jews are the the primary target audience of the epistle to Hebrews. (Heb 1:1-2)

So then, you Christians out there be careful with passages like this one:

Heb 10:26 . . If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the
knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left.

That's a reiteration of Num 15:30-31.

It should go without saying that in a letter written intended for Jews, a "knowledge
of the truth" refers to the covenant that Moses' people agreed upon with God per
Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy, a.k.a. Moses' Law.

It's very easy for poorly-catechized Gentiles to err by assuming Num 15:30-31
applies to everybody; even to Christ's followers. But his followers associate with
God via a different covenant, in point of fact, a much better covenant because it
protects habitual sinners whereas Moses' covenant doesn't.

"But the person, be he citizen or stranger, who acts defiantly reviles the Lord; that
person shall be cut off from among his people. Because he has spurned the word of
the Lord and violated His commandment, that person shall be cut off-- he bears his
guilt."

Also Deut 27:26, which says:

"Cursed is the man who does not uphold the words of this law by carrying them
out."

There are comprehensive lists of curses in Moses' law located at Lev 26:14-39,
Deut 27:15-26, and Deut 28:15-68. The good news is: Christ's followers are
immune to every one of them, whereas Jews are in grave danger of them all.


NOTE: Not all that long ago, the US President's son Hunter Biden requested a plea
bargain agreement that would protect him from crimes he might commit in the
future. Well; the judge wouldn't go for it. But God, via the cross, is prepared to
offer Hunter something very similar-- though for now he might have to serve some
time behind bars but at least he wouldn't end up facing justice at the great white
throne event depicted by Rev 20:11-15 where the lost are on track to be punished
by a mode of death akin to a foundry worker falling into a kettle of molten iron.
_
If that's true you can go marry someone of the same sex and never repent, cause we're saved by grace or regularly do a neighbourhood shooting, cause our future sins are forgiven. I think that goes too far and often the ones who say that do keep the law. They may have sin they struggle with but they don't go live in sin on purpose like those examples. Then the reformed or OSAS say: they're not really saved and I agree with that.

I give this example because on a Dutch reformed forum I met homosexual Dutch reformed guys who cried out for help and never got any and now they accepted it, live in sin, have a relationship and one said: yeah God forgives, grace. I could stop smoking, but I couldn't stop this. Please preach some law. Also when I backslid and dated a guy while still being married officially nobody warned me with hell. Called a pastor for help even. Nope. Went to a church. They said: oh how nice. You 2 should get married. That goes too far. Paul kicked such people out of church or gave em over to satan so their spirit could get saved and he said: don't eat with such.

Or for instance I talked on an atheist forum with a guy called rereformed, who used to be a christian and preached and now he is atheist and wrote a book like Richard Dawkins. And I said that to someone who believes this what you say and he said: oh he's still a christian, but he just lost the way. Wut? The lost son was dead and lost before he came back. How far do they go with this?
 
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Jews are the the primary target audience of the epistle to Hebrews. (Heb 1:1-2)

So then, you Christians out there be careful with passages like this one:

Heb 10:26 . . If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the
knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left.

That's a reiteration of Num 15:30-31.

It should go without saying that in a letter written intended for Jews, a "knowledge
of the truth" refers to the covenant that Moses' people agreed upon with God per
Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy, a.k.a. Moses' Law.

It's very easy for poorly-catechized Gentiles to err by assuming Num 15:30-31
applies to everybody; even to Christ's followers. But his followers associate with
God via a different covenant, in point of fact, a much better covenant because it
protects habitual sinners whereas Moses' covenant doesn't.

"But the person, be he citizen or stranger, who acts defiantly reviles the Lord; that
person shall be cut off from among his people. Because he has spurned the word of
the Lord and violated His commandment, that person shall be cut off-- he bears his
guilt."

Also Deut 27:26, which says:

"Cursed is the man who does not uphold the words of this law by carrying them
out."

There are comprehensive lists of curses in Moses' law located at Lev 26:14-39,
Deut 27:15-26, and Deut 28:15-68. The good news is: Christ's followers are
immune to every one of them, whereas Jews are in grave danger of them all.


NOTE: Not all that long ago, the US President's son Hunter Biden requested a plea
bargain agreement that would protect him from crimes he might commit in the
future. Well; the judge wouldn't go for it. But God, via the cross, is prepared to
offer Hunter something very similar-- though for now he might have to serve some
time behind bars but at least he wouldn't end up facing justice at the great white
throne event depicted by Rev 20:11-15 where the lost are on track to be punished
by a mode of death akin to a foundry worker falling into a kettle of molten iron.
_

So what you're implying is that Jesus only forgave some sins on the cross?
 

Messy3

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So what you're implying is that Jesus only forgave some sins on the cross?
No he says this:

Jews are the the primary target audience of the epistle to Hebrews. (Heb 1:1-2)

So then, you Christians out there be careful with passages like this one:

Heb 10:26 . . If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the
knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left.

It's very easy for poorly-catechized Gentiles to err by assuming Num 15:30-31
applies to everybody; even to Christ's followers. But his followers associate with
God via a different covenant, in point of fact, a much better covenant because it
protects habitual sinners whereas Moses' covenant doesn't.


In short: he doesn't believe that that text that no sacrifice for sin is left is about christians. If they keep on sinning they're still saved.


I disagree, but it depends on the sin. If someone can't stop doing some sin and cries out for Jesus for help and forgiveness on their death bed they're saved and christians can backslide. But how far do you take this?
Because there are those who say: oh Jesus says: my Father will not forgive you if you don't forgive, but that's for the Jews. Gentile christians can keep on keeping a grudge and never repent and it's fine. I don't believe that. Then you're in darkness and need to repent.
 
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The Grace Controversy

9:30AM EDT 5/3/2016Michael Brown
What is grace?
When I began to address the error of hypergrace several years ago, hardly a day would go by without me hearing from people who had been deeply hurt by the message. At the same time, I would consistently hear from people who had been greatly helped by it.
Since we know that a good tree cannot produce bad fruit and a bad tree cannot produce good fruit (Luke 6:43-44), how can we explain the fact that some are helped and some hurt by the same message?
This is one of the 12 questions I tackle in my new book, The Grace Controversy, released May 3. At the end of this article, I'll list all 12 questions from the book.
Here's an abbreviated version of how I answer this important question in The Grace Controversy.
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It appears that there are two primary classes of believers drawn to the hypergrace message.
The first group consists of serious Christians who really want to please the Lord but they struggle with a particular sin or they have very sensitive consciences and always feel like they're falling short. They're not looking for a license to sin, they want to live godly lives, but they can't seem to find a place of freedom from sinful habits or a place of acceptance in the sight of God.
When they hear the hypergrace message, which tells them that all their sins are forgiven—past, present and future—and that nothing they do can ever affect their relationship with God, and when they are taught that, on the very worst day of their lives, God sees them as perfect and holy, they take their eyes off themselves—off their performance and their failures—and fix their eyes on Jesus. And as they do, they are wonderfully set free and transformed.
Was there a mixture of truth and error in what they heard? Without a doubt. But since they were not looking for an excuse to disobey or backslide, and since one of their biggest problems was measuring their relationship with God on the basis how they performed on a given day, the exaggerated message of grace was liberating for them.
On the other hand, there are believers who are attracted to the hypergrace message because they have a problem with discipline and holiness, and when they hear these same words and listen to these same sermons, they become complacent, carnal and compromised, mocking those who call for holy living, branding them grace-hating Pharisees, and claiming that they are mixing grace with works. Rather than draw closer to the Lord in intimate prayer, consistent reading of the Word, and deepening purity, they actually backslide in the name of grace.
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So then, the positive truths of the hypergrace message, even in exaggerated form, are incredibly liberating when received by those who want to please the Lord. But the exaggerations, distortions and errors are deadly and destructive, especially for those who are looking for a way to accommodate the flesh rather than crucify the flesh.
I'm sure that many believers are drawn to hypergrace because they have been burned by legalism, but the problem is that they often swing from one extreme to the other, going from one form of deception to another form of deception. Why not move from error to truth?
To repeat: The true parts of the hypergrace message are what is helping millions of people around the world, and all of us should proclaim these truths as loudly and clearly as possible. They include the teaching that:
  • We should put our focus on Jesus and not on ourselves.
  • Salvation is a free gift that we could never earn in a million lifetimes.
  • On the worst day of our lives, God deeply loves us.
  • Committing one sin does not cause us to lose our salvation.
  • If we fail to confess a sin, that doesn't mean we are not saved until we do confess it.
  • Even if we commit a sin, as far as our salvation is concerned, we are still in the "forgiven column."
  • We are still God's children even as we struggle with sin.
  • The moment we are saved, God sets apart as holy and even calls us holy.
  • God's grace empowers us to live above sin.
  • The Holy Spirit is not here to condemn us.
  • Holiness is not a matter of keeping a set of external laws.
It's a shame that many pastors and leaders sometimes fail to emphasize these truths, because of which a new "grace revolution" rises up every few decades to bring balance. Unfortunately, it often goes way too far, mixing truth with error to the point that others have to counterbalance the new message (today, hypergrace) with a more biblically based version of grace.
If you embrace biblical grace, you will still realize that God's desire is to bless you and care for you and spend eternity with you; that His love is still fixed on you, even when you sin; that confession of sin as a believer is for the purpose of relationship, not salvation; that you never have to fear losing your salvation if you have truly committed your life to the Lord; that the Holy Spirit convicts but doesn't condemn and that His conviction is designed to bring you near to the Father, not drive you away.
All this means that we can approach the throne of God with total confidence, "in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water" (Heb. 10:22). And we can do this without the message of hypergrace.
You might say, "But I feel like you really want me to spit out the meat—the very heart and soul of the grace message—since the things that have really helped me are the things you say are in error."
Actually, you can rest 100 percent secure in your relationship with Jesus without believing in "once saved, always saved" doctrine. And you can enjoy the favor and smile of God 24/7 without believing that it's impossible to displease Him. You can also live totally free from condemnation without believing that the Holy Spirit will never convict you or your sins, and you can walk in assurance of forgiveness without believing that confession of sin is not for believers. I'm a living witness to these realities as are countless millions of believers worldwide.
The key, then, is to get rid of false and unbiblical thinking and to renew our minds and hearts with the truths of God's Word—liberating truths, life-giving truths, transforming truths—rather than to fill our minds with lots of wonderful truth mixed with some very dangerous error.
In short, the key is to embrace biblical grace rather than hypergrace.

 
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Lamb

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This thread has undergone a clean up. Flaming is not tolerated here on Christianity Haven.
 

bbas 64

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Good day,

I was once told to love God with all my heart and soul.... then sin when ever I wanted.

Talk about a contradiction.

In Him,

Bill
 

Lamb

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Good day,

I was once told to love God with all my heart and soul.... then sin when ever I wanted.

Talk about a contradiction.

In Him,

Bill

Who told you to sin whenever you wanted?
 
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