Faith without good works is dead.

MoreCoffee

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So is water baptism required yes or no?
If no, then I guess we could just toss out that whole "repent and be baptised" bit because according to you it makes no difference if one does or not.

Peeling away the "unessentials" in salvation theology is a very dangerous occupation for an individual to undertake. Even for a denomination full of good people it is a dangerous practise. The truth is that God doesn't give revelations that are intended to be "unessential". If the holy scriptures say that the mission of Christians is to preach the gospel calling upon their hearers to repent, believe, and be baptised then there is no reason to ignore the message or any part of it. Even when somebody says that baptism is "unessential".
 

Albion

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You preach salvation by baptism[/quote

I emphatically do not and never have said that I do. I think you know this.


[quote which is works salvation.
It is not. Theologically speaking, receiving a sacrament is not a work.


That is heresy and nonbiblical.
No, you are just ignorant of the meaning of works (and probably of heresy also).


Why do you place your faith in works to save you?
I don't. But I am willing to bet that this is not the last time I will be reading from you that I do. LOL
 

Arsenios

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“Baptism” does not always imply “water” in the New Testament. Sometimes it has other meanings than being dipped or dunked or sprinkled or poured with water. Sometimes it is completely divorced from the notion of water. Let me give you a couple of examples. First of all, in*Mark 10:37-38, James and John come to Jesus and say, “’Permit one of us to sit at your right hand and the other on your left in your glory.’ But Jesus said to them, ‘You don’t know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup I drink or be baptized with the baptism I experience?’” Well, this was long after Jesus experienced water baptism. What is he talking about? He is talking about his suffering. Jesus is talking about his own destruction, his own death, when he says, “Are you able to be baptized with the baptism I experience?” He is not even implying “water” in this context. Incidentally, he is talking about his death and he uses two sacraments and ordinances to symbolically represent his death -- “the cup I drink” (communion, the Lord’s Table), and “the baptism with which I am baptized.”

Another passage of the same vein that runs through this passage is*Luke 12:50: Jesus says, “’I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is finished!’” Again, water baptism is not in view here. Something else is in view and the context would demand that he is talking about his death. He is talking about his suffering. He is talking about his own destruction. He is talking about hanging on the cross and receiving the sentence of the world. That is the baptism he is talking about. Elsewhere in the New Testament, the term “baptism” is seen as not referring to water. In those other contexts it talks about Spirit baptism. We will slip in a couple of those.

In*Mark 1:8, John the Baptist says, “’I baptize you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.’” It is John the Baptist who first talks about water baptism, which is John’s ministry. Oh, but Jesus’ ministry is different. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit. Water is not in view here. A Spirit baptism is in view. This same notion is repeated in all the synoptic Gospels -- Matthew, Mark, and Luke. It is also repeated in*Acts 1:5, right before the Spirit of God comes on Pentecost and the saints there, the community of believers, are baptized by the Spirit. They receive the Holy Spirit. He is poured out on them. It is also repeated later in the book of Acts, as looking back at what Jesus’ ministry was. He was going to baptize them with the Holy Spirit.

For any Bible church,*1 Corinthians 12draws the doctrine for Spirit baptism. It says this in verse 13: “For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body. Whether Jews or Greeks or slaves or free, we were all made to drink of the one Spirit.” All of us have been baptized in the Spirit. The Spirit has baptized us into one body. There are a couple of points of clarification, however. We believe that at conversion, the Spirit baptizes an individual. When you trust Jesus Christ to be your Savior and Lord, you receive the Holy Spirit -- as much of the Holy Spirit as you will ever receive -- at that moment of salvation. The Spirit of God comes to indwell the believer. He is “the seal, … the down payment of our inheritance,” according to*Ephesians 1. He comes to reside within the individual believer. We will never receive more of the Holy Spirit. There is no such thing as a second baptism or a second blessing later on. Salvation is the point where we receive the Holy Spirit. We do not receive the Holy Spirit when we are baptized in water. There is no relationship between being baptized in water and being baptized by the Holy Spirit. A person is baptized by the Holy Spirit at the point of salvation.

https://bible.org/seriespage/1-baptism-flood-confusion

When Scripture cites John the Baptist in John 1:33 saying that Christ is: "He baptizing in the Holy Spirit..." do you really think that he is saying that the Holy Spirit is baptizing, and not Christ??

Baptism does mean immersion - Christ is referring to His imminent immersion into His Own Death regarding which he is unsettled until it happens... This immersion is what He queries His Disciples about... One could even say that Moses was Baptized IN the Holy Spirit on the mountain, for God saturated him in the Holy Spirit to the degree that the People could not bear to look upon his face... Yet the LEAST in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than Moses... Matt 11:11 And the reason is that Moses did not then have what Christians after Christ have... He was not a "New Creation" IN the Resurrected Christ...

And this is why when Scripture tells us we are baptized INTO Christ, it means we are ENTERED INTO Christ in Baptism, and IN Christ, we BECOME the New Creation, whereby we are ENGRAFTED INTO Christ Who IS God... Our fundamental nature is now conjoined with God because we are Baptized INTO Christ BY Christ acting through His Apostolic Ekklesia which He Commanded His Apostles to Baptize all the Nations...

We are not Baptized IN Christ, but are entered INTO Christ, and this by being Baptized IN the Holy Spirit INTO Christ... And ALL this BY the Apostles within the Ekklesia, so that in this manner, the HOUSEHOLD of God establishes its PORTAL of entry, which is Baptism INTO Christ...

The Orthodox regard Baptism as the sin, the boundary, the fence of the Church... IF one is not yet Baptized INTO Christ, one is NOT YET fully a MEMBER of that Body - eg Acting as a Servant or tithing etc does not establish membership in the Body, the Ekklesia... iow - Baptism IN the Holy Spirit comes by Water and by Spirit which IS our Regeneration, our being born again from above, as Holy Scripture records... John 3:5

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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That is just unscriptural nonsense. Is it a matter of saying something ridiculous just to keep an argument alive?

Of course the sacrament requires someone to administer it...and Arsenios is absolutely correct that the Bible records that Jesus instructed the Apostles to perform baptisms among all nations.

When the Church Baptizes, it is Christ Baptizing...

Arsenios
 

MennoSota

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So is water baptism required yes or no?
If no, then I guess we could just toss out that whole "repent and be baptised" bit because according to you it makes no difference if one does or not.
You cannot repent if you are dead in your trespasses and sins. Only those whom God saved can repent. After that repentance, obey by being baptized.
Our difference is that you require a dead man to repent before God can save them. I say God must save them before they can repent.
 

MennoSota

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So…is it your wish that we now switch the discussion from what we have been working on to something else--to the question of whether or not baptism saves?
No. We can drop this topic.
 

MennoSota

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It is not. Theologically speaking, receiving a sacrament is not a work.



No, you are just ignorant of the meaning of works (and probably of heresy also).



I don't. But I am willing to bet that this is not the last time I will be reading from you that I do. LOL
Albion, you are unable to see your error.
 

MennoSota

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When Scripture cites John the Baptist in John 1:33 saying that Christ is: "He baptizing in the Holy Spirit..." do you really think that he is saying that the Holy Spirit is baptizing, and not Christ??

Baptism does mean immersion - Christ is referring to His imminent immersion into His Own Death regarding which he is unsettled until it happens... This immersion is what He queries His Disciples about... One could even say that Moses was Baptized IN the Holy Spirit on the mountain, for God saturated him in the Holy Spirit to the degree that the People could not bear to look upon his face... Yet the LEAST in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than Moses... Matt 11:11 And the reason is that Moses did not then have what Christians after Christ have... He was not a "New Creation" IN the Resurrected Christ...

And this is why when Scripture tells us we are baptized INTO Christ, it means we are ENTERED INTO Christ in Baptism, and IN Christ, we BECOME the New Creation, whereby we are ENGRAFTED INTO Christ Who IS God... Our fundamental nature is now conjoined with God because we are Baptized INTO Christ BY Christ acting through His Apostolic Ekklesia which He Commanded His Apostles to Baptize all the Nations...

We are not Baptized IN Christ, but are entered INTO Christ, and this by being Baptized IN the Holy Spirit INTO Christ... And ALL this BY the Apostles within the Ekklesia, so that in this manner, the HOUSEHOLD of God establishes its PORTAL of entry, which is Baptism INTO Christ...

The Orthodox regard Baptism as the sin, the boundary, the fence of the Church... IF one is not yet Baptized INTO Christ, one is NOT YET fully a MEMBER of that Body - eg Acting as a Servant or tithing etc does not establish membership in the Body, the Ekklesia... iow - Baptism IN the Holy Spirit comes by Water and by Spirit which IS our Regeneration, our being born again from above, as Holy Scripture records... John 3:5

Arsenios
Arsenios, John the Baptist is irrelevant to Christian baptism. Your argument is illegitimate.
 

ImaginaryDay2

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Josiah

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No. We can drop this topic.


I agree.... I see this diversion into "Adult vs. Infant Baptism" as mostly well... diversion.... We have several threads on that already.



But I note this: IF God uses "means" such as Baptism or His Word to GIVE faith - life - Holy Spirit (Justification, narrow) then the point is that God GIVES it... that the Holy Spirit IS the LORD and GIVER of Life, etc. And thus it has nothing to do with OUR works (other things DO have to do with that, however).

I find it silly to argue that if any "means" or "human work" is involved, God is rendered impotent to bless. Even the most radical Baptist will not argue that God cannot use the reading or preaching or teaching of the Bible because that involves human work.... or that a Billy Graham Crusade renders God impotent because there's a lot of human work involved in that. God may USE things as vehicles or means of His blessing, but it's still God blessing. Frankly, I wasn't even conscience or breathing when I was baptized but I don't think that hindered God one bit.


Now, perhaps the point of this thread is to note that everyone has always agreed that faith that is genuine is generally faith that is active on the receivers part, active in love (as Luther and Calvin and Wesley and all Protestants stress so much). We all agree on that (nice). The debate is whether faith's activity is what CAUSES faith to dawn, CAUSES one to have faith, CAUSES one to have the Holy Spirit.... or if it's the other way around, God GIVES us those "free gifts" which then reveal themselves - we LIVE the life given, we RESPOND to the direction and empowering of the Spirit given, we EXPRESS the faith given? In other words, is this "faith is a busy thing" (Luther) and "Faith is busy with love toward one another" (Luther) is the CAUSE of narrow justification or the result? Does such belong to justification (COMING to life and faith) or to sanctification (LIVING out that life and faith)? Luther expressed his view, and we all know how the RCC responded.



- Josiah
 

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Menno seems to have the idea that people here are arguing that baptism is above Jesus sacrifice for saving and redeeming man, no one believes salvation comes from water baptism apart from Christ.
 

MennoSota

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I agree.... I see this diversion into "Adult vs. Infant Baptism" as mostly well... diversion.... We have several threads on that already.



But I note this: IF God uses "means" such as Baptism or His Word to GIVE faith - life - Holy Spirit (Justification, narrow) then the point is that God GIVES it... that the Holy Spirit IS the LORD and GIVER of Life, etc. And thus it has nothing to do with OUR works (other things DO have to do with that, however).

I find it silly to argue that if any "means" or "human work" is involved, God is rendered impotent to bless. Even the most radical Baptist will not argue that God cannot use the reading or preaching or teaching of the Bible because that involves human work.... or that a Billy Graham Crusade renders God impotent because there's a lot of human work involved in that. God may USE things as vehicles or means of His blessing, but it's still God blessing. Frankly, I wasn't even conscience or breathing when I was baptized but I don't think that hindered God one bit.


Now, perhaps the point of this thread is to note that everyone has always agreed that faith that is genuine is generally faith that is active on the receivers part, active in love (as Luther and Calvin and Wesley and all Protestants stress so much). We all agree on that (nice). The debate is whether faith's activity is what CAUSES faith to dawn, CAUSES one to have faith, CAUSES one to have the Holy Spirit.... or if it's the other way around, God GIVES us those "free gifts" which then reveal themselves - we LIVE the life given, we RESPOND to the direction and empowering of the Spirit given, we EXPRESS the faith given? In other words, is this "faith is a busy thing" (Luther) and "Faith is busy with love toward one another" (Luther) is the CAUSE of narrow justification or the result? Does such belong to justification (COMING to life and faith) or to sanctification (LIVING out that life and faith)? Luther expressed his view, and we all know how the RCC responded.



- Josiah
Grace or works...which is it that causes faith to be active?
 

Josiah

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Grace or works...which is it that causes faith to be active?


God GIVES faith - life - Holy Spirit (Justification, narrow). But rarely by pure fiat (not that He can't, I just don't know of a clear example of that - in the Bible or in history). Usually, some MEANS is involved... and that generally means someone employing that means. You may disagree as to whether Baptism is such a means, but I doubt you disagree with the point I'm making.


Now, perhaps the point of this thread is to note that everyone has always agreed that faith that is genuine is generally faith that is active on the receivers part, active in love (as Luther and Calvin and Wesley and all Protestants stress so much). We all agree on that (nice). The debate is whether faith's activity is what CAUSES faith to dawn, CAUSES one to have faith, CAUSES one to have the Holy Spirit.... or if it's the other way around, God GIVES us those "free gifts" which then reveal themselves - we LIVE the life given, we RESPOND to the direction and empowering of the Spirit given, we EXPRESS the faith given? In other words, is this "faith is a busy thing" (Luther) and "Faith is busy with love toward one another" (Luther) is the CAUSE of narrow justification or the result? Does such belong to justification (COMING to life and faith) or to sanctification (LIVING out that life and faith)? Luther expressed his view, and we all know how the RCC
responded.



- Josiah
 

psalms 91

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At the risk of being taken to task I will say that as scripture says God gives us a measure of faith, now once that is given what happens to it depends on us whether we grow it by study of the Word, our actions (are they directed by God or not), and so on. Part of working out our salvation with fear and trembling I think
 

Josiah

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At the risk of being taken to task I will say that as scripture says God gives us a measure of faith, now once that is given what happens to it depends on us whether we grow it by study of the Word, our actions (are they directed by God or not), and so on. Part of working out our salvation with fear and trembling I think


I mostly agree.... God GIVES us saving faith, but yes, that faith can grow and impact FAR more than whether we end up in heaven or not! And yes, we CAN grow that faith.... and (IMO - some uber-Calvinists will disagree) we can even kill that faith. Faith impacts what we do... and what we do impacts our faith. BUT again, MY point has been that justification is GOD'S work (see my signature line, lol), that JESUS is the Savior, that saving faith - spiritual life - the Holy Spirit are "free gifts of God." THAT is the big controversy. But I think everyone agrees, such is a BEGINNING and not the "end all" of everything. Being "heaven bound" is not the whole of Christianity by any means, anymore than being conceived is the "end all" of life or being a human.
 

MennoSota

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God GIVES faith - life - Holy Spirit (Justification, narrow). But rarely by pure fiat (not that He can't, I just don't know of a clear example of that - in the Bible or in history). Usually, some MEANS is involved... and that generally means someone employing that means. You may disagree as to whether Baptism is such a means, but I doubt you disagree with the point I'm making.


Now, perhaps the point of this thread is to note that everyone has always agreed that faith that is genuine is generally faith that is active on the receivers part, active in love (as Luther and Calvin and Wesley and all Protestants stress so much). We all agree on that (nice). The debate is whether faith's activity is what CAUSES faith to dawn, CAUSES one to have faith, CAUSES one to have the Holy Spirit.... or if it's the other way around, God GIVES us those "free gifts" which then reveal themselves - we LIVE the life given, we RESPOND to the direction and empowering of the Spirit given, we EXPRESS the faith given? In other words, is this "faith is a busy thing" (Luther) and "Faith is busy with love toward one another" (Luther) is the CAUSE of narrow justification or the result? Does such belong to justification (COMING to life and faith) or to sanctification (LIVING out that life and faith)? Luther expressed his view, and we all know how the RCC
responded.



- Josiah
Good points Josiah. I believe you and I are in agreement that God is the cause agent which activates faith. Good works are the effect of God's action on our behalf in granting us faith.
 

MennoSota

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At the risk of being taken to task I will say that as scripture says God gives us a measure of faith, now once that is given what happens to it depends on us whether we grow it by study of the Word, our actions (are they directed by God or not), and so on. Part of working out our salvation with fear and trembling I think

I might tweak this and ask: Do we rest in God's work or do we devise other plans? We observe this particularly in Abraham.
 

Josiah

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I might tweak this and ask: Do we rest in God's work or do we devise other plans? We observe this particularly in Abraham.


But I think you are getting at point being made...

In a sense, faith is REST (as you - and the Bible - say). Because our justification is JESUS' gift to us, and we are relying on such alone. Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide as Protestants put it. Those "solas" are a kind of rest (and certainty).

But faith is ALSO active (as the Bible also says). It's NOT active in the ACHIEVING of faith - life - Holy Spirit (justification), it's NOT active in the sense that what self does is what saves making Jesus a sad joke, the Gospel wrong, and Christianity false (the point that split Western Christianity 500 years ago - and still does today), no, but rather faith grows and spreads and matures and impacts all our life. It is "busy with love" (Luther). And yes, we can do things that will grow this faith (study His work, worship, etc., for example) and IMO (you'll disagree) we can do things to harm it (perhaps even terminate it).

Let me use this illustration: I was GIVEN physical life around March 23, 1987 (I was born 9 months later, albeit prematurely). I did NOTHING to cause that, I did no good works to bring that about. Life was a free gift. And I thank God ALONE for it (Soli Deo Gloria). However, that's not the end..... I am to grow and mature and develop ... I am in the process of LIVING that life, and doing so ever more Christ-like, more loving, more giving, more moral. I think there are things I can do to encourage that and things I can do to discourage that.... I can even do things that will HELP my physical life and HARM my physical life (I even think I am able to commit susicide). But the reality that life means I can LIVE has no bearing on my living causing my life.


Because of the Reformation (and the 500 years since)... because the devil seems incredibly busy (and often effective) at making each of us seem big and Jesus seem small.... because the devil is INTENT on making the Gospel so muddy and confusing as to keep many misled.... Protestants are very, very focused upon it - shouting from the rooftops that JESUS is THE Savior! And quick to correct anything that detracts from that, derails that, undermines that. BUT that should not be confused to say that we disagree with Catholics or Orthodox (or any Christian for that matter) that once justified (in that narrow sense) we ARE to grow and mature.... we ARE to live that life given to us.... we ARE to reveal our faith in love, trust and obedience.... we are look to the Holy Spirit we now have for direction and empowering. Going to heaven is NOT the "end all" for Protestants.... but we don't confuse LIVING the faith with GAINING the faith, we don't confuse OUR works with God's works, we don't confuse Law and Gospel, we don't confuse justification with discipleship. WHY IS THAT IMPORTANT? Because if we sacrifice Jesus as the Savior, it's not longer Christianity. And if we sacrifice lives of love, it's not Christianity. And if we confuse the two, it's not Christianity.


Now, friend, I've been saying this since I came to CH.... and there's always been one or two (typically Catholics) who IMMEDIATELY argue with me, debate with me, rebuke me, ridicule me - often for literally HUNDREDS of posts, sometimes for hundreds of pages of posts, every chance they get. Over and over and over. Every chance they get. For years. And of course the RCC has been for 501 years now. Is that significant?



- Josiah




.
 
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MennoSota

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But I think you are getting at point being made...

In a sense, faith is REST (as you - and the Bible - say). Because our justification is JESUS' gift to us, and we are relying on such alone. Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide as Protestants put it. Those "solas" are a kind of rest (and certainty).

But faith is ALSO active (as the Bible also says). It's NOT active in the ACHIEVING of faith - life - Holy Spirit (justification), it's NOT active in the sense that what self does is what saves making Jesus a sad joke, the Gospel wrong, and Christianity false (the point that split Western Christianity 500 years ago - and still does today), no, but rather faith grows and spreads and matures and impacts all our life. It is "busy with love" (Luther). And yes, we can do things that will grow this faith (study His work, worship, etc., for example) and IMO (you'll disagree) we can do things to harm it (perhaps even terminate it).

Let me use this illustration: I was GIVEN physical life around March 23, 1987 (I was born 9 months later, albeit prematurely). I did NOTHING to cause that, I did no good works to bring that about. Life was a free gift. And I thank God ALONE for it (Soli Deo Gloria). However, that's not the end..... I am to grow and mature and develop ... I am in the process of LIVING that life, and doing so ever more Christ-like, more loving, more giving, more moral. I think there are things I can do to encourage that and things I can do to discourage that.... I can even do things that will HELP my physical life and HARM my physical life (I even think I am able to commit susicide). But the reality that life means I can LIVE has no bearing on my living causing my life.


Because of the Reformation (and the 500 years since)... because the devil seems incredibly busy (and often effective) at making each of us seem big and Jesus seem small.... because the devil is INTENT on making the Gospel so muddy and confusing as to keep many misled.... Protestants are very, very focused upon it - shouting from the rooftops that JESUS is THE Savior! And quick to correct anything that detracts from that, derails that, undermines that. BUT that should not be confused to say that we disagree with Catholics or Orthodox (or any Christian for that matter) that once justified (in that narrow sense) we ARE to grow and mature.... we ARE to live that life given to us.... we ARE to reveal our faith in love, trust and obedience.... we are look to the Holy Spirit we now have for direction and empowering. Going to heaven is NOT the "end all" for Protestants.... but we don't confuse LIVING the faith with GAINING the faith, we don't confuse OUR works with God's works, we don't confuse Law and Gospel, we don't confuse justification with discipleship. WHY IS THAT IMPORTANT? Because if we sacrifice Jesus as the Savior, it's not longer Christianity. And if we sacrifice lives of love, it's not Christianity. And if we confuse the two, it's not Christianity.


Now, friend, I've been saying this since I came to CH.... and there's always been one or two (typically Catholics) who IMMEDIATELY argue with me, debate with me, rebuke me, ridicule me - often for literally HUNDREDS of posts, sometimes for hundreds of pages of posts, every chance they get. Over and over and over. Every chance they get. For years. And of course the RCC has been for 501 years now. Is that significant?



- Josiah




.
We don't harm faith. We harm ourselves by disobeying in not trusting God. This is what Abraham did when he lied about his wife and said she was a sister. This is what Abraham did when he slept with Hagar.
Abraham did not harm faith, Abraham disobeyed and ignored that God had given him faith.
 

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Arsenios, John the Baptist is irrelevant to Christian baptism.

You're right - All ol' JTB did was Baptize Jesus Christ...

Which is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT to Christian Baptism...

Maybe we can just say the Bible is irrelevant to Christian Baptism...

All he did was tell us in the Bible that Christ was going to be the One doing REAL Baptizing...

So was John the Baptist just telling lies to the Jews?

Or did Jesus just do a couple of baptisms in the Holy Spirit and Fire and then quit?

Did He designate His Baptizers to be acting in His Holy Name?

Whom did Christ designate by commanding them to baptize all the nations, Menno?

Drive-bye pot shot theology is not a good thing...

Arsenios
 
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