Discussion of a Foundational "Evangelical" Teaching

[Pedrito]

==============================================================================================

In Post #99, I suggested that other Posters might help the Author of Post #89 consolidate the verses that he stated had previously been provided as follows: “other posters have shared regarding God choosing humans and keeping humans unto himself”.

That Author had originally suggested that MoreCoffee produce an equal number of verses supporting the idea that humans can choose to accept God or reject God.

I suggested the consolidation from the scattered sources he has alluded to, because:
- Readers would be able to directly compare those verses with the ones to be supplied by MoreCoffee;
- There would be an identifiable and inarguable target figure that MoreCoffee has to match;
- Readers and MoreCoffee would know exactly what verses MennoSota was referring to.

That original suggestion was made in Post #98 on 07-04-2018 (could be Sydney time).
My follow-up suggestion was made in Post #99 on 07-08-2018 (could be Sydney time).

==============================================================================================

It would seem that the Author of Post #89, as well as “other posters” to whom he referred, are having difficulty recalling the scriptures that it was stated they have shared.

That is a disappointment, because the context of the challenge for MoreCoffee to match their number, implied that their number was in excess of the two dozen that I had requested of MoreCoffee.

The lack of tabling of those verses referred to in Post #89 (after what could only be described as a reasonable time of waiting), could lead to speculation that they are so few in number that actually tabling them would be an embarrassment.

Assuming that is not the case, I request their consolidated tabling once again, and counsel against further delay for obvious reasons.

==============================================================================================

 

[MoreCoffee]

Pedrito, in the ESV the word "choose" is used in 64 verses ... I do not know how many verses contain the idea of choosing.

 

[Josiah]

This thread is a discussion of this:

.

An argument that is frequently heard by "Arminianists" and some modern "Evangelicals" is that while God OFFERS and CALLS us to salvation, we MUST decide and choose and embrace it.

The usual "LOGICAL" argument is that in a few cases, Scripture CALLS the dead to faith.... and thus the dead MUST be able to respond to that call or it makes no sense for them to be called to it. IMO, this makes no sense logically (and it is purely an argument supposedly from human logic - they admit NO Scripture remotely says this) and it's not Scriptural.



Consider, for example, this Scripture known to all of us.... Let's look at this example: John 11:38-44


38 Then Jesus, deeply moved again, came to the tomb. It was a cave, and a stone lay against it.

39 Jesus said, “Take away the stone.” Martha, the sister of the dead man, said to him, “Lord, by this time there will be an odor, for he has been dead four days.”

40 Jesus said to her, “Did I not tell you that if you believed you would see the glory of God?”

41 So they took away the stone. And Jesus lifted up his eyes and said, “Father, I thank you that you have heard me.

42 I knew that you always hear me, but I said this on account of the people standing around, that they may believe that you sent me.”

43 When he had said these things, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out.”

44 The man who had died came out, his hands and feet bound with linen strips, and his face wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Unbind him, and let him go.”



Now, let's unpack the verbatim words here.....


1. Lazarus was DEAD. Just as Scripture says all those without faith are dead. Lazarus (like the unregenerate) was deader than a doorknob. He "stunk" like unregenerate people, lol.

2. In verse 43, Jesus CALLS him, CALLS this dead man to come out of the tomb. There is a clear, obvious, undenial CALL here. Lazarus was commanded to do something.

3. The premise is that if one is CALLED to something, that one THEREFORE must be able to RESPOND to the call. But did dead Lazarus give himself life? Did he raise himself from the dead? Is it a case that dead Lazarus - being able to hear God, desiring to please God, considering Jesus His Lord - was obedient and did as Jesus told him to do? Thus, there's no divine miracle here.... no grace here.... nothing is GIVEN..... rather, dead Lazarus was able to do what he was called on to do, Lazarus had life because he had free choice to create it, he was obedient, he made the right choice and gave himself life? OR did Jesus perform a pure miracle here (one our human brains can't explain, one our human logic and philosophy and science can't explain), Jesus GAVE this dead man life, pure grace?


IMO, this argument that we read here at CH.... that I read so much in Christian books and on Christian websites and hear on Christian radio... that BECAUSE the dead are CALLED to faith, ERGO they must be able to respond to it, to do it..... these dead ones must be able to cause themselves to believe, to come to life, to have faith..... IMO, the whole popular premise is illogical and unbiblical. Sometimes, God gives. There is God's GRACE (His unmerited, unearned, free gift). I believe Lazarus (while called) nonetheless passively received a miracle of grace, purely an act of Jesus. I don't deny that there are a few verses where the dead/unregenerate are called to faith (not to be confused with CHRISTIANS being called to greater or more focused faith). What I deny as both illogical and unbiblical is that THEREFORE it is MANDATED that the one called MUST be able to do what he is called to do (even if empowered by God). I believe there is a dynamic at work here: GRACE. God's unmerited, unearned, free GIFT. Sometimes God GIVES us what we need. Gives. Because He unconditionally loves us. Because we need it - or just He wishes to bless us with it.


Agree? Disagree?



Soli Deo Gloria



- Josiah

.

 

[Pedrito]

==============================================================================================

MoreCoffee (Post #102):

Pedrito, in the ESV the word "choose" is used in 64 verses ... I do not know how many verses contain the idea of choosing.

MoreCoffee is now on the road to providing a practical target for MennoSota (and any who would like to help him) to match. We should commend MoreCoffee for his efforts.

However, I believe we should now ask MoreCoffee to narrow down that broad list of verses for us, to home in on those that pertain to the personal acceptance of offered salvation, as I understand he has indirectly indicated. (And while that number will be less than the “hundreds” initially claimed, we must be open to the idea that not all the relevant verses/passages will necessarily contain the particular word “choose”.)

==============================================================================================

Once that refined list is available, we can sensibly request of MennoSota, a list containing the same number of verses (or more) supporting the idea of “God choosing humans and keeping humans unto himself”.

If that then-predefined number of verses is successfully tabled, then we will have to afford MoreCoffee the opportunity to look beyond just the presence of the word “choose”, to possibly expand his list.

Of course, if MennoSota (and others) cannot even match that initial list, then that will open up a whole new ballgame (an old one in fact, retrieved from under the rug where it is constantly swept).

And that will be interesting.

==============================================================================================

 

[MoreCoffee]

Jerusalem, Jerusalem! You kill the prophets and stone those who have been sent to you. How often I have wanted to gather your children together, in the way that a hen gathers her young under her wings. But you were not willing! Behold, your house shall be abandoned to you, having been deserted. For I say to you, you shall not see me again, until you say: "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord." " Matthew 23:37-39

One step at a time, pedrito.

The 64 passages make the post of over 10,000 characters long and that is too long for a post, it is not allowed. So one step at a time.

 

[Pedrito]

This is partially a continuation from a previous Post.

==============================================================================================

In Post #89 Mennosota said:

...MC provides the "equal" number of verses for humans choosing both God and rejection of God that other posters have shared regarding God choosing humans and keeping humans unto himself...

I acknowledged that to be a good and fair idea. But we Readers are still awaiting the requested consolidated list to which MoreCoffee can respond.

My second suggestion in that regard, follows.

==============================================================================================

Prior to MoreCoffees’ statement regarding a large number of passage relating to a particular topic, a number of as yet unverified claims were made regarding the existence of lists of verses that supposedly support the idea of a conscious life form (“soul”) surviving after a person dies.

In order that everything will be done decently and in order, I propose that those unverified lists of verses be tabled without further delay.

That tabling of those verses that have been claimed to exist (see below) will, among other things, set aside any notion that Post #89 was an attempt to further avoid their presentation. (We have to wonder why it has taken so long for the lists to be made available to us, mustn’t we? Do those verses actually exist?)

Those claims were made by:
- Mennesota in Post #2 in “Annihilationism” (“the forest of verses”);
- jsimms435 in Post #8 in “Annihilationism” (“there are dozens of scriptures”);
- Albion in Post #19 in “Annihilationism” (“every NT verse that teaches the life of the soul after physical death” [implying significant multiplicity]);
- Mennosota Post #31 in “Thoughts on the Annihilationism Thread” (“Ezekiel shares a number of verses where the dead Kings of earlier Kingdoms...are in the "pit" and very much conscious”.)

The existence of those verses was proclaimed in support of one of general Christendom’s central teachings, and it is therefore totally pertinent to request they be revealed at last, here.

==============================================================================================

Isn’t the asking for those verses to be listed, so that the basis for our beliefs can be confirmed as wholly Scriptural – isn’t that a really good idea?


And by the way, considering the “dozens” of verses, the “forest” of verses, the “hundreds” of passages, etc., that have been claimed to exist, my requests for their tabling implied the references only, not the full text of each.

==============================================================================================

 

[MoreCoffee]

An argument that is frequently heard by "Arminianists" and some modern "Evangelicals" is that while God OFFERS and CALLS us to salvation, we MUST decide and choose and embrace it.
...

The holy scriptures teach the people of Israel were called upon to choose whom they would serve:

"Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in faithfulness; put away the gods which your fathers served beyond the River, and in Egypt, and serve the LORD. And if you be unwilling to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." Then the people answered, "Far be it from us that we should forsake the LORD, to serve other gods; for it is the LORD our God who brought us and our fathers up from the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage, and who did those great signs in our sight, and preserved us in all the way that we went, and among all the peoples through whom we passed; and the LORD drove out before us all the peoples, the Amorites who lived in the land; therefore we also will serve the LORD, for he is our God." But Joshua said to the people, "You cannot serve the LORD; for he is a holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions or your sins. If you forsake the LORD and serve foreign gods, then he will turn and do you harm, and consume you, after having done you good." And the people said to Joshua, "Nay; but we will serve the LORD." Then Joshua said to the people, "You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen the LORD, to serve him." And they said, "We are witnesses." He said, "Then put away the foreign gods which are among you, and incline your heart to the LORD, the God of Israel." And the people said to Joshua, "The LORD our God we will serve, and his voice we will obey." So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and made statutes and ordinances for them at Shechem. And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God; and he took a great stone, and set it up there under the oak in the sanctuary of the LORD. And Joshua said to all the people, "Behold, this stone shall be a witness against us; for it has heard all the words of the LORD which he spoke to us; therefore it shall be a witness against you, lest you deal falsely with your God." So Joshua sent the people away, every man to his inheritance. Joshua 24:14-28
​

 

[Josiah]

The holy scriptures teach the people of Israel were called upon to choose whom they would serve

Nice, although unrelated to this thread. It's not about old covenant but new covenant. This is not about God's chosen people SERVING.... it's about becoming God's people.

 

[psalms 91]

Actually I dont think it is unrelated, it shows a choice a decision if you will.

 

[Josiah]

Actually I dont think it is unrelated, it shows a choice a decision if you will.

Well, I chose my new car too. NO ONE is embracing some radical Greek philosphy of fate. Read the opening post. The discussion here is about ONE singular issue: whether a dead atheist CHOOSES to embrace Jesus as Savior, CHOOSES to come to life, CHOOSES to take the Holy Spirit. See the opening post. It's not about choices that have nothing to do with coming to spiritual life, the coming of the Holy Spirit.

 

[psalms 91]

Well, I chose my new car too. NO ONE is embracing some radical Greek philosphy of fate. Read the opening post. The discussion here is about ONE singular issue: whether a dead atheist CHOOSES to embrace Jesus as Savior, CHOOSES to come to life, CHOOSES to take the Holy Spirit. See the opening post. It's not about choices that have nothing to do with coming to spiritual life, the coming of the Holy Spirit.

Hmmm I think Billy Graham and every other evangelist would support the idea of choosing.

 

[Josiah]

Hmmm I think Billy Graham and every other evangelist would support the idea of choosing.

Well, Billy Graham is welcome to respond to the opening post....


I DO recall.... in my homeschool days as a kid.... this was done via a mega Baptist church. Their school had a "homeschool support" branch that I was involved with. Promotions, awards, graduations, etc. were generally done at the church DURING Sunday morning worship, so I attended a number of Baptist worship services. They had an "Altar Call" at the end of every one of them. I powerfully recall the preacher during one saying (I think this is a very accurate wording).... "If your heart is pounding, your palms sweating, if you feel a desire to come down but maybe something is holding you back... you ALREADY are a Christian and the Holy Spirit you now have is moving you to testify of that!" Ah, so much for choosing. At least for THAT "evangelical."

 

[MoreCoffee]

The Lord, Jesus Christ, asked the apostles if they wanted to stop following him. The implication being that they could stop following him if they wanted to.

Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also wish to go away?" Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life; and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God." John 6:67-69​

 

[Josiah]

The Lord, Jesus Christ, asked the apostles if they wanted to stop following him. The implication being that they could stop following him if they wanted to.

Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also wish to go away?" Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life; and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God." John 6:67-69​

Choosing to abandon what we have is not the same as choosing it in the first place. I didn't choose physical life but I can choose to terminate it. I didn't choose to be an American citizen but I can renounce it. I didn't choose to be a male but I can renounce that, change my identity and have a few surgeries. You are simply confusing entirely different issues. Insisting, "BUT choosing can be done in totally DIFFERENT things" is not addressing the issue here. No one is suggesting a universal Greek philosophy of fate, no one is suggesting we can't choose to have cheese with our hamburger or not.

 

[psalms 91]

Well, Billy Graham is welcome to respond to the opening post....


I DO recall.... in my homeschool days as a kid.... this was done via a mega Baptist church. Their school had a "homeschool support" branch that I was involved with. Promotions, awards, graduations, etc. were generally done at the church DURING Sunday morning worship, so I attended a number of Baptist worship services. They had an "Altar Call" at the end of every one of them. I powerfully recall the preacher during one saying (I think this is a very accurate wording).... "If your heart is pounding, your palms sweating, if you feel a desire to come down but maybe something is holding you back... you ALREADY are a Christian and the Holy Spirit you now have is moving you to testify of that!" Ah, so much for choosing. At least for THAT "evangelical."

I would call that false. Yes the Holy Spirit moves on people and many times it is powerful but they can still reject the gift and some do. It is a choice.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Choosing to abandon what we have is not the same as choosing it in the first place. I didn't choose physical life but I can choose to terminate it. I didn't choose to be an American citizen but I can renounce it. I didn't choose to be a male but I can renounce that, change my identity and have a few surgeries. You are simply confusing entirely different issues. Insisting, "BUT choosing can be done in totally DIFFERENT things" is not addressing the issue here. No one is suggesting a universal Greek philosophy of fate, no one is suggesting we can't choose to have cheese with our hamburger or not.

You object to the idea that a person chooses to accept the message of the gospel?

 

[Josiah]

I would call that false. Yes the Holy Spirit moves on people and many times it is powerful but they can still reject the gift and some do. It is a choice.

Is one saved BECAUSE a dead, atheistic enemy of God makes a good choice?

I think our old nature, our worldly and prideful nature, likes the idea that SELF is the kingpin, the REAL reason why miracles happen and why good things come... we save and bless self because of OUR stuff. And of course, in SOME things, there is some element of that.

In Justification, you will find some Catholics who will say that while Jesus makes salvation POSSIBLE for anyone .... while Jesus OPENED THE DOOR to heaven for everyone.... Jesus saves no one, each dead person save himself by walking through that door, by the good and loving works that WE do, thus while Jesus may be (at most) a Possibility - Maker, He isn't the Savior (or even A Savior). And I think you'll find some modern "Evangelicals" who will say that Jesus makes salvation POSSIBLE and OFFERS it freely to all - BUT we save ourselves by making a good choice so that salvation is something WE accomplished and achieved for ourselve by OUR brain. Both positions see Christ as essential in that He makes it all POSSIBLE but neither sees Christ as the Savior (at all), rather self is by what each dead self does (loving works or good decisions). Jesus becomes a possibility maker, a door opening, an offerer - but not a Savior.

While I don't think parables can be used for theology, I think the rising of Lazarus is insightful. Because while he was PHYSICALLY dead, the Bible says without Christ all are SPIRITUALLY dead (and enemies of God). But how did Lazarus come to life? How did the miracle happen? Because dead Lazarus did enough good loving works to achieve life? Because dead Lazarus made a good and wise decision and thus accomplished life? No, because Christ saved him, Christ GAVE him life - THEN he could act on that and come out of the tomb. Jesus saved him. And he acted accordingly. The Bible calls faith "the free gift of God" not "the free choice of each dead enemy of God for self." In the ancient creed (which you may not accept), many proclaim that the Holy Spirit IS (100%) THE Lord and GIVER of life, not that self is the Lord of life and that God only OFFERS it but never gives it. If God is the Lord here, we aren't. If Jesus is the Savior, we aren't.

Bill, I affirm there is MYSTERY here.... we don't really fully understand the "workings" of this miracle of spiritual life - faith in Christ - Holy Spirit... and I confess there is MUCH temptation to think SELF is the REAL cause.... but I accept it as the miracle of GOD, 100% God's doing. Jesus is the Savior. 100%. Which means I'm not the Savior (not even 0.000000000000000000000001%) - not now, not ever. God doesn't just help me (making him the Helper) or just offer me something (Making Him the Offerer), Jesus is the Savior. See my point, Bill? Whether we demote Christ to Door Opener or Offerer, we've eliminated Him as Savior. Whether salvation/llfe comes via the dead one doing enough loving works or making a right decision, either way, it's something self accomplishes not something Christ gives. Where shall we look? To the one we see in the mirror or the one we see on the Cross? Where is the Savior, in the mirror or on the Cross? See my point?


I think there is a real danger in the one who says the words, "Jesus is the Savior BUT....." (and then the rest of the sentence makes self the Savior and not Jesus, cancelling out the first clause). Some like to point out that faith isn't just chanting the right words but negating such by what follows. I think the same truth is there, some chant "Jesus is the Savior" but this is largely negated by what follows that confession, essentially reversing it. See my point, Bill? YES, there is miracle here (faith and life ARE miracles, HIS miracles) and yes, once we have the gift of faith - life - Holy Spirit, we DO make choices that are critically important (just as Lazarus did once he had been given life) but that's another issue.



Thank you.




.

 

[psalms 91]

Salvation is a gift and like any gift it can be rejected. Yes the Holy Spirit moves on us and prompts us but does not force us to accept it and neither does God. And I have seen the long posts about free will and choice and all the rest and I will not change in this and I suspect that there are many here who agree with this as well as a lot of denominations. It is pretty simple really, no need for wide and narrow or forced or choice it is what it is.

 

[Josiah]

Salvation is a gift and like any gift it can be rejected.

I agree.

Yes the Holy Spirit moves on us and prompts us but does not force us to accept it and neither does God.

I think you are creating a false dichotomy, my friend

Hum.... odd to think of miracles as something FORCED. When God gave me physical life, did he FORCE it on me, big bad meaning that God is? When Jesus gave Lazarus life, raising him from the tomb, did He FORCE it on him as a caprious meanie? When I kissed my infant son this morning, he didn't freely choose it but I didn't FORCE it on him (being the big, bad meanie I am, lol). When I give flowers to my wife (as I often do), am I being a big, bad monster, a meanie, FORCING myself on her? I think you are creating a false dichotomy.

I like to think of divine blessings as GIFTS, miracles of love/grace/mercy. I think of God as good, not a monster. Reconsider this dichotomy you created.



.

 

[Pedrito]

==============================================================================================

Post #114:

Choosing to abandon what we have is not the same as choosing it in the first place. I didn't choose physical life but I can choose to terminate it. I didn't choose to be an American citizen but I can renounce it. I didn't choose to be a male but I can renounce that, change my identity and have a few surgeries. You are simply confusing entirely different issues.

Here we see a very good example of human logic being overlaid on Scripture, to make Scripture agree with an idea of human origin.

The highly selective choice of situations (above) in which a lack of choice is inherent, actually highlights the lack of Scriptural evidence that the Selector believes he has at his disposal.

By way of contrast: I had a choice whether or not to undertake the rigours of tertiary studies. I had a choice regarding what to study. I chose the jobs I have had. I chose the lady I asked to marry me. Etc., etc. The human situation is not a valid source of parallels in this instance.

Why don’t we have a look at a scripture which proves to be signature on the subject – bearing in mind that its meaning is constantly twisted to support a doctrine of human origin.

==============================================================================================

John 1:11-13 (especially John 1:12-13) is a mainstay of the “Born Again” segment within Christendom. Individuals and churches maintaining that stance, state that those verses proclaim that believers are “born again”. But that simply proves to be an example of how superficiality leads to error (or error of human origin leads to superficiality).

What do those inspired statements actually tell us? (ESV)

He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. He came initially to the Jews, then (indirectly) to the rest of mankind.

But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God Note: The believers did not automatically become children of God. God gave believers the right/authority/power/privilege to become children of God. There was and is a second step involved. It is not compulsory. It requires counting the cost (as Jesus tells us). It is a step requiring choice.

who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. This was and is the result of taking the second step, of actioning the privilege. And remember, the Greek word covers the whole process of conception to birth. The idea could well be that of conception, with growth continuing throughout the “Christian life”. The amount of effort dedicated to a person’s growth is also a matter of choice.

==============================================================================================

The matter of choice was very clear to the Apostolic church. It is also revealed very clearly in unfiltered Scripture.

==============================================================================================