Did the ancient Pagan Religions get picked up as 'tradition'?

[hobie]

Looking into the history of the rites of the ancient pagan religion in Rome, the rites were performed and controlled by a number of different priestly collegia and other special priests and magistrates. The priestly organizations were many "independent" priests of various cults who bore the title sacerdos. There were pagan beliefs and forms of worship that came in and were picked up and developed a priesthood and became strong in Rome such as the such as the 'Mysteries of Mithras' or sun worship originating from ancient Babylon, and they were 'traditions of man' to be sure.

If you look into church history you will also find what is called the Disciplina Arcani or Discipline of the Secret or Discipline of the Arcane, which was a restriction imposing silence upon Christians with respect to their rites and doctrines. It was a theological term used to describe the 'tradition' or custom which came in and prevailed in the church, whereby knowledge of the more 'intimate mysteries' of the Christian religion was carefully kept from the Christians or others. It is a "theological term used to express the custom which prevailed in the earliest ages of the Church, by which the knowledge of the more intimate mysteries of the Christian religion was carefully kept from the heathen and even from those who were undergoing instruction in the Faith. The custom itself is beyond dispute."

Now lets check the CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Discipline of the Secret (Catholic Encyclopedia), Discipline of the Secret (Latin Disciplina Arcani ):

There are many other "unwritten mysteries of the Church," says St. Basilc (and they are not scriptural.) According to St. Basil, they come from a "silent" and "private" tradition: [From the silent and mystical tradition, from the unpublic and ineffable teaching]. This "silent" and "mystical" tradition, "which has not been made public," is not an esoteric doctrine, reserved for some particular elite. The "elite" was the Church. In fact, "tradition" to which St. Basil appeals, is the liturgical practice of the Church. St. Basil is referring here to what is now denoted as disciplina arcani [The discipline of secrecy].

These 'traditions' of the church can easily be traced to the ancient pagan religion in Babylon such as the Collegium Pontificum in Rome, which had the priests who served the public rites of the State religion and controlled both the public rites and the priesthoods themselves. Its leader was the supreme Pontiff who acted as the speaker for the Collegium Pontificum, and oversaw the various priesthoods and the Comitia Curiata and the Vestals. The Flamines were the priest orders that served specific deities such as the Flamen Dialis (priests of Jupiter), the Flamen Martialis (priests of Mars) among the many orders.

The flamens were priests in charge of fifteen official cults of Roman religion, each assigned to a particular god. The three major flamens (flamines maiores) were the Flamen Dialis, the high priest of Jupiter; the Flamen Martialis, who cultivated Mars; and the Flamen Quirinalis, devoted to Quirinus. The deities cultivated by the twelve flamines minores were Carmenta, Ceres, Falacer, Flora, Furrina, Palatua, Pomona, Portunus, Volcanus (Vulcan), Volturnus, and two whose names are lost. Now we see were the orders of the priests came from..

The Vestal Virgins were the only female members of the college. Now we see where the nuns came from...

 

[MennoSota]

There is no doubt that the church at Rome incorporated many pagan practices into its traditions. This is true of the EOC as well. False teachings and compromise led to the acceptance of false doctrines under the umbrella of "tradition."

 

[hobie]

Well, lets look at what scripture tells us:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-6 King James Version (KJV)
"1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time."

The apostle Paul, in his second letter to the Thessalonians, foretold the great apostasy which would result in the establishment of the Antichrist power. He declared that before the return of Christ would, "come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who exalteth himself above all that is called God;" Even at that time he saw, creeping into the church, errors in belief that would prepare the way for the false teachings to come in and open the door to the Antichrist power.

It happened little by little, and then more brazenly as allowed large number of 'converts' as it used various ways to lure them. It gained control of believers, and slowly paganism and idol worship came into the church. It was held back for a time by the persecutions by the Roman Emperors. But then as the Empire weakened, this power took hold from within the church, and it laid aside the truth and simplicity of Christ for the ancient 'traditions' and ritual of paganism and substituted human theories and substituting man in the position of the divine.

 

[Michael]

Well, lets look at what scripture tells us:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-6 King James Version (KJV)
"1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time."

The apostle Paul, in his second letter to the Thessalonians, foretold the great apostasy which would result in the establishment of the Antichrist power. He declared that before the return of Christ would, "come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who exalteth himself above all that is called God;" Even at that time he saw, creeping into the church, errors in belief that would prepare the way for the false teachings to come in and open the door to the Antichrist power.

It happened little by little, and then more brazenly as allowed large number of 'converts' as it used various ways to lure them. It gained control of believers, and slowly paganism and idol worship came into the church. It was held back for a time by the persecutions by the Roman Emperors. But then as the Empire weakened, this power took hold from within the church, and it laid aside the truth and simplicity of Christ for the ancient 'traditions' and ritual of paganism and substituted human theories and substituting man in the position of the divine.

And this prophecy is coming to pass in our day.

The antichrist will come from within the church.
"another Christ" is preached in many assemblies today and the people have accepted "another gospel." And these "traditions" have taken deep root.
So many will be unprepared to face what is coming

May we "not be deceived" , but rather "vigilant" and "sober" and found among those who are "not in darkness, so that the Day should overtake you as a thief."

 

[hobie]

And this prophecy is coming to pass in our day.

The antichrist will come from within the church.
"another Christ" is preached in many assemblies today and the people have accepted "another gospel." And these "traditions" have taken deep root.
So many will be unprepared to face what is coming

May we "not be deceived" , but rather "vigilant" and "sober" and found among those who are "not in darkness, so that the Day should overtake you as a thief."

The Antichrist power has been here since the Roman Empire fell away and left a religious entity which has at its head, one who would speak "pompous words" of blasphemy "against [God]."
Scripture tells us more of the characteristics:
It was to make war on God's saints.
It would think to change times and laws.
The saints were to be handed over to it for a time and times and half a time.
It shall devour the whole earth.
It shall reign until the Ancient of Days comes when finally its power and dominion will be taken away.

So you have to see what history tells us who persecuted the saints (can we say 'Inquisition') and tried to forbid the Bible from the laity so it could dictate its changes and enforce its 'tradition'. Read your history and it clearly shows you who it is, they've tried to hide it by coming up with these false ideas of Preterism and Futurism. Here is a good explanation "The doctrines of Preterism and Futurism, published by Alcasar and Ribera, two Jesuit priests, in 1585, redefined the reformation position on the Antichrist and shifted the emphasis away from the papacy to the Greek king Antiochus Epiphanus IV and to some tyrant who would persecute the Jews some time in the future." Walter Veith, Truth Matters 2002.

Now blasphemy has two definitions in Scripture:

Claiming to forgive sins (Luke 5:21).
Claiming to be God (John 10:33).

Does this point fit a religious entity. Let’s first look at the evidence for it claiming to forgive sins, taken directly from its own literature: “Does the Priest truly forgive the sins, or does he only declare that they are remitted? Answer-The Priest does really and truly forgive the sins in virtue of the power given to him by Christ.”(St. Alphonsus Liguori, The Dignities and Duties of the Priest (1927). )

This Antichrist power undermines Jesus by setting up a system of confession to an earthly priest, thus bypassing Jesus, our High Priest and only Mediator. Then their is much evidence for it claiming to be God, we find: “We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty.”(Pope Leo XIII Encyclical Letter, June 20, 1894)

They claim he ”is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, but he is Jesus Christ, Himself, hidden under the veil of flesh.” (Joseph Deharbe, Catechism of the Catholic Religion (1912).)

 

[hobie]

It picked up and brought in the whole of pagan sun worship which was in the Babylonian system of worship and has essentially been maintained to this day. The ancient Chaldeans worshipped a pantheon of male and female gods representing the sun god. There were largely three aspects to this system of sun worship, representing the father, mother, and the son. These were the god Bel or Merodach, Ninus the son, who was also worshipped as Tammuz, and the female goddess Rhea who was also worshipped as Ishtar, Astarte, or Beltis representing the mother. She was also referred to as the 'queen of heaven' and the 'wrath subduer'.

Mother and child worship was the basis of the ancient religions. And in the various religions of the world, the same system of worship was perpetuated under different names. In Egypt they were worshipped as Isis and Osiris or Horus, in India as Isi and Iswara, in China and Japan as the mother goddess Shing-moo with child, in Greece as Ceres or Irene and Plutus, in Rome as Fortuna and Jupitor-puer, or Venus and Adurnis, and in Scandinavia as Frigga and Balder. The mother and child were worshipped in Babylon as Ishtar and Tammuz, and in Phoenicia, as Ashtoreth and Baal.

There are many sources that point out the origins of the 'traditions' and more....

...the "temples, incense, oil lamps, votive offerings, holy water, Holidays, and seasons of devotion, processions, blessings of the fields, sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure (of priests, munks and nuns), images, and statues... are all of pagan origin." -The Development of the Christian Religion Cardinal Newman p.359

The penetration of the religion of Babylon became so general and well known that Rome was called the "New Babylon." -Faith of our fathers 1917 ed. Cardinal Gibbons, p. 106

"The Church took the pagan philosophy and made it the buckler of faith against the heathen. She took the pagan Roman Pantheon, temple of all the gods, and made it sacred to all the martyrs; so it stands to this day. She took the pagan Sunday and made it the Christian Sunday. She took the pagan Easter and made it the feast we celebrate during this season . . . The Sun was a foremost god with heathendom . . . The sun has worshipers at this hour in Persia and other lands . . . Hence the Church would seem to say, 'Keep that old pagan name [Sunday]. It shall remain consecrated, sanctified.' And thus the pagan Sunday, dedicated to Balder, became the Christian Sunday, sacred to Jesus"--William L. Gildea, "Paschale Gaudium," in The Catholic World, 58, March, 1894, p. 809.

"in order to recommend the new religion to the heathen:" "The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense, lamps, and candles; holy water; asylums [hermitages, monasteries and convents]; [pagan] holy-days, processions, sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images, . . . and the Kyrie Eleison."--J. H. Newman, An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine, 1920 edition, p.373 [Roman Catholic].

"The mighty Catholic Church was little more then the Roman Empire baptized."-- A. C, Flick, The Rise of the Mediaeval Church, 1909 edition, p. 148. From ancient Babylon came the cult of the virgin mother-goddess, who was worshiped as the highest of gods--see S. H. Langdon, Semitic Mythology, 1931 edition. This worship was taken over as Mary-worship by Rome. Heathen sun-worship on its pagan day of the sun was likewise adopted by the Roman apostasy.

"In order to attach to Christianity great attraction in the eyes of the nobility, the priests adopted the outer garments and adornments which were used in pagan cults." -Life of Constantine, Eusabius, cited in Altai-Nimalaya, p. 94

 

[atpollard]

I am no fan of many points of Catholic theology (ask the Roman Catholics and EOC Catholics on this site, they will confirm it) ...

... but if you really look around at the world we live in and conclude that the greatest threat to the Body of Christ in the world today is the Catholic Church or the Pope as the “man of lawlessness” (there is no “Antichrist” with a capital “A” listed in scripture), then you are straining gnats and swallowing camels.

To put it more bluntly ... poppycock!

 

[MennoSota]

I am no fan of many points of Catholic theology (ask the Roman Catholics and EOC Catholics on this site, they will confirm it) ...

... but if you really look around at the world we live in and conclude that the greatest threat to the Body of Christ in the world today is the Catholic Church or the Pope as the “man of lawlessness” (there is no “Antichrist” with a capital “A” listed in scripture), then you are straining gnats and swallowing camels.

To put it more bluntly ... poppycock!

What a fine word is poppycock.

Poppycock either comes from a Dutch dialect word for “soft poop,” or from the old Dutch expression zo fijn als gemalen poppekak—literally “as fine as powdered doll’s excrement.”

http://mentalfloss.com/article/64162/12-old-timey-ways-saying-nonsense

 

[Andrew]

What a fine word is poppycock.

Poppycock either comes from a Dutch dialect word for “soft poop,” or from the old Dutch expression zo fijn als gemalen poppekak—literally “as fine as powdered doll’s excrement.”

http://mentalfloss.com/article/64162/12-old-timey-ways-saying-nonsense

That's hog-wash you are thinking of fooey

 

[hobie]

I am no fan of many points of Catholic theology (ask the Roman Catholics and EOC Catholics on this site, they will confirm it) ...

... but if you really look around at the world we live in and conclude that the greatest threat to the Body of Christ in the world today is the Catholic Church or the Pope as the “man of lawlessness” (there is no “Antichrist” with a capital “A” listed in scripture), then you are straining gnats and swallowing camels.

To put it more bluntly ... poppycock!

Read your history and compare it to scripture, it came after the Roman Empire, it came from within the church, and it changed much of what came from Christ and the Apostles to its own "tradition". Now if you look, the title Pontifex Maximus can be traced way back, all the way back to Babylon. The ancient Babylon Kings served as both king and priest of the pagan Babylonian Mystery religion. As priests, they bore the title "Pontifex Maximus" or "Supreme Pontiff," meaning "supreme pathfinder" or "bridge maker," representing "the path or connection between this life and the next" When Medo-Persia conquered Babylon, the Babylonian pagan religion was maintained, but after a revolt of the priesthood, the priests of Babylon were driven out of Medo-Persia, and established themselves at Pergamum, taking with them their titles and vestures. They continued their reign there as priest-kings of Babylonian paganism.

The pontiff king of Pergamum Attalus III, bequeathed his title to the emperor of Rome in 133 BC and the kingdom of Pergamum merged with the Roman Empire along with what the Bible calls Satan throne and idol worship and its title "Pontifex Maximus".

Revelation 2:12-14King James Version (KJV)
12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

Julius Caesar himself held the title, but in the fourth century AD, emperor Gratian refused the title, and in the year 431 AD, the title was taken over by Damascus, bishop of Rome. By this time, the Roman bishops had advanced in political power, and so Bishop Damasus was elected Pontifex Maximus, becoming basically the holder of the office of the pagan Babylonian priest. The bishop converted the pagan temples of Rome into Christian churches and introduced the worship of pagan Babylon with its rites and rituals and pagan sacraments. History has what is considered the "overnight" conversion of pagan Romans to Christianity, which in actuality, the Roman pagans did not convert to Christianity, but rather the Christians allowed it to take over. The bishop Damasus exercised his authority as head of' Babylonian paganism' in Rome, and replaced all the Christian elders with pagan priests and continued what the Romans had done before Christianity, the practice of the pagan Babylonian Mystery religion and it began to spread to all areas of the old Roman Empire.

The present-day college of cardinals with the Pope at the head is identical to the college of pontiffs from Babylon and Ancient pagan Rome with the Pontifex Maximus at the head.

The keys that the Pope wears around his neck are not the keys of Peter. Rather, they date back from Babylonian times, when it was supposed that this representative of God had the power to unlock heaven or hell. All the pomp and ceremony that existed in ancient Babylon was now practiced as Roman Catholic Christianity.

We find much of what happened in a statement about the Pope’s position as the pagan priest who is the Pontifex Maximus:

"The Emperor is no more...but the Pontifex Maximus abides; he is now the Vicar of Christ, offering the old civilisation to the tribes of the North. He converts them to his creed, and they serve him as Father and Judge supreme" William Barry's 'The Papal Monarchy'.

Seems like the priests of Babylon continue in this new guise..

 

[hobie]

Here is from Edward Gibbons on the pagan religion in Rome.

"From the age of Numa to the reign of Gratian, the Romans preserved the regular succession of the several colleges of the sacerdotal order. ^3 Fifteen Pontiffs exercised their supreme jurisdiction over all things, and persons, that were consecrated to the service of the gods; and the various questions which perpetually arose in a loose and traditionary system, were submitted to the judgment of their holy tribunal Fifteen grave and learned Augurs observed the face of the heavens, and prescribed the actions of heroes, according to the flight of birds. Fifteen keepers of the Sibylline books (their name of Quindecemvirs was derived from their number) occasionally consulted the history of future, and, as it should seem, of contingent, events. Six Vestals devoted their virginity to the guard of the sacred fire, and of the unknown pledges of the duration of Rome; which no mortal had been suffered to behold with impunity. ^4 Seven Epulos prepared the table of the gods, conducted the solemn procession, and regulated the ceremonies of the annual festival. The three Flamens of Jupiter, of Mars, and of Quirinus, were considered as the peculiar ministers of the three most powerful deities, who watched over the fate of Rome and of the universe. The King of the Sacrifices represented the person of Numa, and of his successors, in the religious functions, which could be performed only by royal hands. The confraternities of the Salians, the Lupercals, &c., practised such rites as might extort a smile of contempt from every reasonable man, with a lively confidence of recommending themselves to the favor of the immortal gods. The authority, which the Roman priests had formerly obtained in the counsels of the republic, was gradually abolished by the establishment of monarchy, and the removal of the seat of empire. But the dignity of their sacred character was still protected by the laws, and manners of their country; and they still continued, more especially the college of pontiffs, to exercise in the capital, and sometimes in the provinces, the rights of their ecclesiastical and civil jurisdiction. Their robes of purple, chariotz of state, and sumptuous entertainments, attracted the admiration of the people; and they received, from the consecrated lands, and the public revenue, an ample stipend, which liberally supported the splendor of the priesthood, and all the expenses of the religious worship of the state. As the service of the altar was not incompatible with the command of armies, the Romans, after their consulships and triumphs, aspired to the place of pontiff, or of augur; the seats of Cicero ^5 and Pompey were filled, in the fourth century, by the most illustrious members of the senate; and the dignity of their birth reflected additional splendor on their sacerdotal character. The fifteen priests, who composed the college of pontiffs, enjoyed a more distinguished rank as the companions of their sovereign; and the Christian emperors condescended to accept the robe and ensigns, which were appropriated to the office of supreme pontiff. But when Gratian ascended the throne, more scrupulous or more enlightened, he sternly rejected those profane symbols; ^6 applied to the service of the state, or of the church, the revenues of the priests and vestals; abolished their honors and immunities; and dissolved the ancient fabric of Roman superstition, which was supported by the opinions and habits of eleven hundred years. Paganism was still the constitutional religion of the senate. The hall, or temple, in which they assembled, was adorned by the statue and altar of Victory; ^7 a majestic female standing on a globe, with flowing garments, expanded wings, and a crown of laurel in her outstretched hand. ^8 The senators were sworn on the altar of the goddess to observe the laws of the emperor and of the empire: and a solemn offering of wine and incense was the ordinary prelude of their public deliberations. The removal of this ancient monument was the only injury which Constantius had offered to the superstition of the Romans. The altar of Victory was again restored by Julian, tolerated by Valentinian, and once more banished from the senate by the zeal of Gratian. ^10 But the emperor yet spared the statues of the gods which were exposed to the public veneration: four hundred and twenty-four temples, or chapels, still remained to satisfy the devotion of the people; and in every quarter of Rome the delicacy of the Christians was offended by the fumes of idolatrous sacrifice. "

And yet the statues were turned into 'saints', and the rites and sacraments, and the pagan orders basically renamed and along with the 'vestal virgins' continue to this day, still with the 'supreme pontiff'.

 

[atpollard]

Edward Gibbon was a deist (denying the miraculous), a harsh critic of Christianity for destroying the “noble” culture of the Roman Empire, and an enemy of democracy and the rights of man (as befits an English aristocrat).

What a wonderful choice for a Christian to base their Biblical historic theology on. :Nooo:

(Keep swallowing those camels)

 

[hobie]

Edward Gibbon was a deist (denying the miraculous), a harsh critic of Christianity for destroying the “noble” culture of the Roman Empire, and an enemy of democracy and the rights of man (as befits an English aristocrat).

What a wonderful choice for a Christian to base their Biblical historic theology on. :Nooo:

(Keep swallowing those camels)

Well, pick whatever historian and its the same

 

[hobie]

History shows that the Pontifex Maximus was the guardian of the Vestal virgins. The Roman Catholic Church has simply named them Nuns instead. Most historians will agree that the idea for the powers of the pope with the College of Cardinals came from the Pagan College of Pontiffs with its Sovereign Pontiff which had no doubt been in Rome from the earliest times, and must have been framed on the order of the original Council of Pontiffs at Babylon. It's also obvious to any historian that while the Catholics have called themselves Christians, they more closely resemble the ancient pagans both in customs and names.

Pope Gregory I (601 AD) said in so many words literally, "We must compromise with the pagans in order to further Christianity."

 

[Lamb]

It's also obvious to any historian that while the Catholics have called themselves Christians, they more closely resemble the ancient pagans both in customs and names.

Here at CH we consider Catholics to be Christians.

 

[hobie]

Here at CH we consider Catholics to be Christians.

But you have to admit the fact that the whole system of worship, with the wood and stone idols and the rituals and sacraments etc.. are not from what Christ and the apostles gave to the early church, but are from another origin.

 

[psalms 91]

While I dont agree with the Catholic religion I think if you sturdy jewish things you will find that a lot of their symbolism was from the jewish religion, not pagan

 

[Lamb]

But you have to admit the fact that the whole system of worship, with the wood and stone idols and the rituals and sacraments etc.. are not from what Christ and the apostles gave to the early church, but are from another origin.

Catholics don't have idols and are you even aware what their sacraments are?

 

[Josiah]

You know.....


Sometimes I just get TIRED......


For CENTURIES, there has been so much hate among Christians - not so evidently toward Satan or sin, but each other.

For CENTURIES, there have been these "urban myths" that just get perpetuated - ENDLESSLY - with ZERO interest or concern in whether there's an ounce of truth in it. NO ONE asks, "Do you really believe or do this?" No, truth is irrelevant when it comes to our brothers and sisters in Christ.

It just makes me TIRED...



In my Catholic days, I got all the "Catholics worship Mary...... Catholics worship idols..... Catholics removed one of the Ten Commandments.... Catholics think saying the Rosary will get them to heaven..... Catholics think Mary is actually the Savior....oh, the list is LONG. And NEVER did any of these Protestants GIVE A RIP as to whether what they were saying was true (I'm being too harsh, I admit). Now, there ARE legit things were I think the RCC and/or common Catholics are wrong (I left that denomination) but those things are never mentioned.

Then when I became Protestant, I just got the same JUNK from other side. "Protestants think works don't matter." "Protestants think a book with the word Bible on the cover floated down from heaven." "Protestants each appoint self as their own infallible pope." In their defense, "Protestants" are SUCH a diverse group that they probably CAN find an example,but generally it's just "urban myths" - the same ones Catholic have been spreading for 500 years. They complain endlessly about how everyone's always pic'n on them but they sure can dish it out. And I learned, this parrots never give a rip about whether what they are saying has an ounce of truth in it. Never does a Catholic say, "Well, what do YOU believe, what do YOU do - and why?"

It just is so tiring...



There's less of this now than in the past. But NOT because there is more love but because there is more indifference. Relativism has infected all Christianity like a cancer; no one gives a rip about what is true anyone. More important is how you feel.... if it works for you..... "What is truth?" they echo Pilate, and answer, "It doesn't matter." Catholics and Protestants do not agree with each other more now, they just don't care.... and have mutually abandoned the whole idea of truth.



IMO.... coming to a community like THIS is a wonderful opportunity! We can actually TALK!!!!!! Instead, often it's shouting..... the same old, tired, worn sound bites.


Sorry. I really am.


I have work to do.



PS. I once complained about this....and was told "the worse place to be in any such FIGHT is in the middle, in the "no man's" land...... both sides will shoot at you, neither will defend you." Conservative/traditional Lutherans and Anglicans (and many Reformed) are just that. Shot at by both sides. lol




.

 

[hobie]

Catholics don't have idols and are you even aware what their sacraments are?

How could you miss all the 'statues' at the Vatican I saw there, these were clearly 'idols'. While the Church claims it never gave the 'Saints' to the people to worship or pray to, the pagan masses it drew made no such fine distinctions, and they came to regard the idols of the 'Saints' themselves as present helps in trouble and addressed their prayers directly to them. A good example of the closeness of the resemblance of the specialization of function of different Saints to that of pagan spirits is found in the published lists of Saints used by some Christians.

Here are some of the examples: San Serapio was used to appealed to in case of stomach-ache; Santa Polonia for tooth-ache; San Jose, San Juan Bautista and Santa Catalina for headache; San Bernardo and San Cirilo for indigestion; San Luis for cholera; San Francisco for colic; San Ignacio and Santa Lutgarda for childbirth; Santa Balsania for scrofula; San Felix for ulcers; Santa Agueda for nursing mothers; San Babilas for burns; San Gorge for an infected cut; Santa Quiteria for dog's bite; San Ciriaco for diseases of the ear; Santa Lucia for the eyes; San Pedro for fever; and Santa Rita for the impossible and on and on. Some of the early Christians themselves protested against the cult of the Saints: for example, Vigilantius and Faustus in the fifth century.

Here is a simple list on doctrines that the church brought in that are considered unscriptural or unbiblical teachings...

1. The veneration of angels and dead saints
2. The Mass
3. The veneration of Mary and praying to her
4. The doctine of Purgatory
5. The transference of the solemnity of the Sabbath to the first day of the week
6. Latin being the official language of prayer and worship
7. The establishment of the position of Pope
8. Worship or veneration of relics, images, statues, or idols
9. Canonization of dead saints
10. Celibacy of the clergy (though I understand this may have changed)
11. The use of the rosary
12. The sale of Indulgences
13. Transubstantiation
14. Confessing of sin to priests and the belief that priests can forgive sin
15. Adoration of the wafer
16. The Scapular
17. The 7 Sacraments (here is a good site to check https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/824-where-did-the-seven-sacraments-come-from
18. The declaration that tradition is of equal authority as the Bible
19. Papal Infallibility
20. Infant baptism