Decision Theology

[Albion]

No man naturally has faith, not Spiritual Faith.

That's correct.

When Jesus saves a sinner, He gives them Faith and Repentance.

One is saved by Christ before they put faith in Him, they are given faith in Him because He had already saved them, so Faith embraces Him who already saved them.

If you wish. Some Christians believe in Predestination while others do not. Both groups, however, believe that it is Faith that saves men and Christ who made it possible.

 

[MoreCoffee]

My American Evangelical Tradition is full of what I will call decision theology. By that I mean, we present the gospel by preaching/testimony to someone and ask them to believe, repent, call on the name of the Lord, be born again, trust in Jesus as Lord and Savior, ask Jesus into their heart or other "church speak" for becoming a believer. This is done in a group setting via an alter call or in a personal conversation if in a small group or one on one discussion.

Usually it follows this pattern:

1. Explaining that we are all sinners and our sins have separated us from God
2. Telling them how Christ came to take away our sin and restore our relationship with God and give us a new life in Christ
3. Asking them if they will trust in Christ and make Him Lord of their life
4. If they say yes, then lead them in a "sinner's prayer" where they verbalize their desire to "follow Jesus".
5. If they are affiliated with our church we ask them to be baptized.

My question is: What is wrong with this? Doesn't it follow the New Testament pattern of preaching and teaching and a call to belief/repentance? Shouldn't we as Christians constantly be giving people the opportunity to respond to the Gospel because we never know who the Holy Spirit is convicting of sin and drawing to Christ?

Don't we all ultimately have to make a decision on if we are going to follow Christ or not?

What role does a personal decision play in your theological understanding of conversion and repentance?

Conversion is a process not an event. There are events in every process but it is a mistake to pick one of them and treat it as if it were the entire process. One becomes a Christian by remaining "in Christ" like a fruitful branch of a grape vine remains a part of the vine. Jesus explained this in John chapter 15.

 

[Lanman87]

Conversion is a process not an event.

Being born is a one time event. Just as we are born once we are born again once, when our hearts are changed from a heart of stone to a heart of flesh and we are made new creations in Christ and place our faith in Christ. At the same moment we are adopted as a child of God.

Being converted is a moment of change. That internal spiritual change produces profound changes in our loves and and our actions. For the first time, we are truly free to love God and others, beyond natural/emotional love, which is a mere shadow of the love we have in Christ. Taking up our cross and following Christ daily isn't being converted daily. It is a result of having already been converted.

For some of us, that moment of change is dramatic. We may have never been exposed to the gospel or may have been in church our entire life, but never have trusted in Christ. The Holy Spirit convicts us of our sins and we become broken and call on the Lord to forgive us and deliver us from our sinfulness and our lives are never the same.

For others, who were taught to believe at an early age and had a life of faith modeled for us by our parents and church, we may never remember a life before conversion. We can't remember a time we didn't believe in Jesus on some level. As we have matured our child like faith grew into a mature faith.

For others, conversion comes slowly as people share the gospel with them, model Christian character for them, and they investigate the claims of the gospel, which culminates in the Holy Spirit overcoming any objections and the person placing their faith in Christ. Which is the moment of conversion.

One doesn't become a Christian by remaining in Christ, one remains in Christ because one is a Christian (born again, adopted, changed). You have to be part of the vine(converted) before you can remain in the vine(live by faith) and produce fruit (by faith working through love).

 

[brightfame52]

That's correct.


If you wish. Some Christians believe in Predestination while others do not. Both groups, however, believe that it is Faith that saves men and Christ who made it possible.

Thats where we differ. I believe Christ actually saves and person, then gives them Faith to believe it.

 

[Albion]

Thats where we differ. I believe Christ actually saves and person, then gives them Faith to believe it.

I pointed out that there are competing views among Protestant Christians concerning the function of Faith.

 

[brightfame52]

I pointed out that there are competing views among Protestant Christians concerning the function of Faith.

I know there are different positions.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Being born is a one time event.

Living is a process. It would be very disappointing to be born and not live. We celebrate the anniversary of birth each year after birth for as long as we live. This is also true of being born from above. But we stop celebrating when life ends. So it is that conversion is a process not an event.

John 15:1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit, he will take away. And each one that does bear fruit, he will cleanse, so that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 You are clean now, because of the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. Just as the branch is not able to bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, so also are you unable, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me, and I in him, bears much fruit. For without me, you are able to do nothing. "

 

[Lanman87]

Living is a process

That is what I said. Remaining in the vine is a process, becoming part of the vine is an event.

 

[Josiah]

That is what I said. Remaining in the vine is a process, becoming part of the vine is an event.

In my experience, some Catholics mix up the two. Both are important - they just aren't the same thing.


.

 

[1689Dave]

My American Evangelical Tradition is full of what I will call decision theology. By that I mean, we present the gospel by preaching/testimony to someone and ask them to believe, repent, call on the name of the Lord, be born again, trust in Jesus as Lord and Savior, ask Jesus into their heart or other "church speak" for becoming a believer. This is done in a group setting via an alter call or in a personal conversation if in a small group or one on one discussion.

Usually it follows this pattern:

1. Explaining that we are all sinners and our sins have separated us from God
2. Telling them how Christ came to take away our sin and restore our relationship with God and give us a new life in Christ
3. Asking them if they will trust in Christ and make Him Lord of their life
4. If they say yes, then lead them in a "sinner's prayer" where they verbalize their desire to "follow Jesus".
5. If they are affiliated with our church we ask them to be baptized.

My question is: What is wrong with this? Doesn't it follow the New Testament pattern of preaching and teaching and a call to belief/repentance? Shouldn't we as Christians constantly be giving people the opportunity to respond to the Gospel because we never know who the Holy Spirit is convicting of sin and drawing to Christ?

Don't we all ultimately have to make a decision on if we are going to follow Christ or not?

What role does a personal decision play in your theological understanding of conversion and repentance?

Jesus says whoever believes has eternal life. So Billy Graham and his forerunner Charles Finney deceived the host of listeners making them think a decision to accept Jesus would save them. The truth is, God saved them making believers out of them. Had they not already believed (been saved), they would not have "gone forward". Thinking they must save themselves according to Billy's twisted gospel. The same is true in many of the churches I've visited.

 

[Albion]

Whoa. While it's true that there are many churches and camp meetings, etc. in which altar calls take place, resulting in hardly anyone going forward for the reason that they are already believers (that's why they're attending)...

it's also true that there are many people who were not believers but listened to Billy Graham (or another evangelist), were converted, and did make a profession of faith then and there. And there are also people who were only nominal Christians but came to faith in a meaningful way thanks to a Billy Graham crusade.

And as for who did the saving, there is no question about God using his church and its ministers to bring about the spread of the faith. Christ said so himself. And He also founded a church which won its first wave of converts as a result of Peter's preaching to thousands of non-Christians on Pentecost.

 

[1689Dave]

Whoa. While it's true that there are many churches and camp meetings, etc. in which altar calls take place, resulting in hardly anyone going forward for the reason that they are already believers (that's why they're attending)...

it's also true that there are many people who were not believers but listened to Billy Graham (or another evangelist), were converted, and did make a profession of faith then and there. And there are also people who were only nominal Christians but came to faith in a meaningful way thanks to a Billy Graham crusade.

And as for who did the saving, there is no question about God using his church and its ministers to bring about the spread of the faith. Christ said so himself. And He also founded a church which won its first wave of converts as a result of Peter's preaching to thousands of non-Christians on Pentecost.

I think they are believers or they wouldn't be there.

"The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV 1900)

 

[Albion]

I think they are believers or they wouldn't be there.

I'm surprised to have you stay with this answer because there are many people who have testified that they were invited to such a gathering by a friend, or perhaps went there out of curiosity after some initial introduction to Christianity, or even that they happened upon a telecast by someone like Billy Graham. Then, for those who were present when an actual altar call was issued...they responded. That's not unbelievable.

I know some of those people myself, and if there is any question about it, altar calls are nothing I am recommending or are a familiar part of my own church experience.

"The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV 1900)

Whatever happened to "“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” (??)
Romans 10:17 (KJV)

​

 

[1689Dave]

I'm surprised to have you stay with this answer because there are many people who have testified that they were invited to such a gathering by a friend, or perhaps went there out of curiosity after some initial introduction to Christianity, or even that they happened upon a telecast by someone like Billy Graham. Then, for those who were present when an actual altar call was issued...they responded. That's not unbelievable.

I know some of those people myself, and if there is any question about it, altar calls are nothing I am recommending or are a familiar part of my own church experience.


Whatever happened to "“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” (??)
Romans 10:17 (KJV)

​

Faith is a fruit of the Spirit you must have before you can Hear the gospel at a saving level.

 

[Albion]

Faith is a fruit of the Spirit you must have before you can Hear the gospel at a saving level.

A person must be a committed Christian prior to hearing the Gospel and having it impact him...as, for example, in a church meeting at which an altar call is issued following a sermon with Gospel readings? ?

But if so, what's the purpose in sending missionaries to foreign lands, there to preach the Gospel to pagans, and then to baptize the converts...all of which Jesus pointedly instructed his followers to do?

 

[1689Dave]

A person must be a committed Christian prior to hearing the Gospel and having it impact him...as, for example, in a church meeting at which an altar call is issued following a sermon with Gospel readings? ?

But if so, what's the purpose in sending missionaries to foreign lands, there to preach the Gospel to pagans, and then to baptize the converts...all of which Jesus pointedly instructed his followers to do?

Unless born-again, you cannot see or enter the kingdom of God. But a born-again person needs the gospel in order to perceive Christ and live a holy life. Do you think Corneilius was born-again before hearing Peter preach? His works reflected the new birth, but he could not follow Christ until being enlightened by the gospel.

 

[Albion]

Unless born-again, you cannot see or enter the kingdom of God.

None of us disputes that.

But a born-again person needs the gospel in order to perceive Christ and live a holy life

Sure.

Do you think Corneilius was born-again before hearing Peter preach?

No.

His works reflected the new birth, but he could not follow Christ until being enlightened by the gospel.

Strange reasoning IMO.

 

[1689Dave]

None of us disputes that.


Sure.


No.


Strange reasoning IMO.

If you cannot see or enter the kingdom of God unless born again, you cannot embrace the gospel of the kingdom.

“Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.” Luke 17:21 (KJV 1900)

 

[Albion]

“Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.” Luke 17:21 (KJV 1900)

Jesus was referring to himself in that statement made to his Apostles (i.e. the kingdom of God is in your midst...and yet you guys are looking elsewhere!).

So, there's no way that this verse proves anything about the claim we've been dealing with--altar calls, and so on.

 

[1689Dave]

Jesus was referring to himself in that statement made to his Apostles (i.e. the kingdom of God is in your midst...and yet you guys are looking elsewhere!).

So, there's no way that this verse proves anything about the claim we've been dealing with--altar calls, and so on.

“But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.” Luke 11:20 (KJV 1900)