[MENTION=334]atpollard[/MENTION]
... you keep posting "go... baptize.... teach" but leave out "make disciples".
Now here again, the words are written in an order which I think is deliberate, but which you will claim is irrelevant.
Arthur, consider the following..... please LOOK AT THE WORDS you keep quoting...
And, lets see how this works, this "kai" means "after that" and mandates sequence...
Let's look at the verse you already brought up in order to prove that FIRST one must repent of their sins and AFTER THAT we are no longer forbidden to baptize them (it's the point you were making at the time). You used the same "kai" = AFTER THAT IS COMPLETED meaning....
Acts 2:38 "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
Your whole premise then and now, in this verse and any in reference to Baptism, is that the mandated meaning of "kai" is 'AFTER THAT' and it's purpose is to require sequence, chronological order. You (and all Anabaptists on this point) use this to prove that repentance must come before baptism - and since those under the age of X cannot repent, they cannot be baptized.
Let's examine your hermaneutic there. So, this verse is proving a certain SEQUENCE, a CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER that must happen this way and must be forbidden to happen otherwise:
The DEAD person (Peter says this to unbelievers) must
1. Repent (including turning to God in faith for mercy and forgiveness) THEN AFTER THAT IS COMPLETED AND DONE...
2. Be baptized (passive receiver) THEN AFTER THAT IS COMPLETED AND DONE, NEVER BEFORE...
3. Receive forgiveness THEN AFTER THAT IS COMPLETED AND DONE, NEVER BEFORE...
4. The Holy Spirit comes to do his regenerative work.
So, what does that do to your Calvinist and Monergist view of soteriology (I;ve brought this up with two other Scriptures you keep quoting and requiring this identical "kai-requires-sequence" apologetic but you've always skipped it). It means that the DEAD person must perform the good work of repenting - which includes turning to God in faith for mercy and forgiveness - this coming from a DEAD person! THEN, only that step is completed and done and finished, only then, next he is no longer forbidden to be baptized and indeed should be (a second good work done by a DEAD person). THEN, only when that step is completed and one and finished, he (this DEAD man) will receive forgiveness (because the dead man did two good works), and THEN after that step is done and completed and finished, the Holy Spirit will do His work of giving life and faith.
If you read that, yeah- your spin helps your baptism argument but it destroys the Christian Gospel! Maybe your whole apologetic here is.... well..... not correct?
Now, you always switch verses, so okay... Matthew 28:19.
Yes, several things are connected here (it's ALL the word "kai" does, it just says "ALSO" or "PLUS")
NOTICE, Jesus wants them to go to unbelievers ("all nations"). This directive is not "Already believers" because not "all nations" were (or are) believers. Indeed, Jesus elsewhere suggests that believers will always be a minority, so "all nations" CANNOT mean "Only those who are already believers" because it would be errant to call only believers "all nations" unless "all nations" were Christians already at the time Jesus spoke this. He wants them to go to ALL NATIONS and accomplish something that was not the case as He said these words, make disciples. All nations were NOT disciples at the time, He wants them to be, thus..... the Great Commission.
It seems Jesus is saying Christians are to DO things here for all nations, with the goal of making disciples. And there are several parts:
1. Go (So human activity - ministry - MUST be acceptable and usable to God in all the specifics that follow or the directive is meaningless; there's no need to GO if it can't accomplish anything; if it's worthless to the objective)
2. To all nations (not "Just believers" See above)
3. Make Disciples
4. Baptizing
5. Teaching
Remember, "kai" only means "also" it in no way indicates sequence. So this imperative to GO (because God can use what he will go on the specify for His purposes) applies to all that follows. And while sequence COULD be implied, it RARELY is with this word and Jesus could have used several other words if sequence was His point rather than choosing to use a word that NEVER mandates that and RARELY means that (You have to have Jesus choosing very bad verbage at best).
What is the subject of this? All nations to make disciples.
What are they to do that Jesus evidently can do something with for this purpose?
+ Baptize
+ Teach
Odd that Jesus would say to baptize them BEFORE we teach them - and you insist, the sequence of the words MANDATES the chronological order..... So, according to your premise, no one can be taught before they are baptized.
Odd that Jesus would spell out something they should do for the accomplishment He has in mind (Baptism) if it's useless to Him and can't do what He desires.
You are requiring a mandated chronological sequence (which means you can't teach until you've baptized!) when there's none stated, indeed Jesus uses the most general and generic connector available and DOES NOT use any of the words that would indicate sequence (making Him very poor in His choice of words, at the very least, if your premise is true). But even you aren't following that because you teach BEFORE you baptize. All but the very tiny minority of Protestants who accept the Anabaptist invention on Baptism take this as a whole ("kai" means "also"); Jesus wants all Christians to GO to all nations..... why? To make disciples! The He spells out WHAT we are to do (it sure seems with the object just stated - all nations - and the goal - make disciple - in mind): baptize, teach.
HOW God uses these... HOW God performs His miracle of life.... WHAT precise sequence He is ordered to do it all in.... we leave that to God; the Great Commission is not what we tell God to do but what He is telling us to do. Now, does He say that AS A RESULT every single person will be made into a disciple? Nope - and traditionalists aren't saying that. MUST God make disciples using these? No, and no one is saying that. God says, "My word shall not return to Me void but shall accomplish all that I purpose" In another place, ".... all for which I sent it." Actually, who sends it? Matthew 28:19 - Christians are to. But He didn't command us ONLY to teach but ALSO to baptize. Who? All nations.
A blessed Lenten season to all....
- Josiah
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