Can faith save him?

Andrew

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I believe James like Jesus is calling out hypocrites, James is rather calling out to a post resurrection crowd to teach/preach to them that for any man to claim and boast that he has "faith" but does not tend to his neighbor in need yet exclaims for them to "go eat something and find clothes for themselves" is merely boasting and is out to convince others that he is 'righteous in faith' when really he is boasting in his own hypocrisy.
Makes total and complete sense to me.
 

Albion

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Unfortunately, the story is just a story, and it includes a dream as part of the story in addition! So we have to make a lot of assumptions, but everything in the account points to a Christian context. So that, anyway, was part of my reasoning in saying that he most likely was saved by faith.
 

MoreCoffee

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Romans 6:15-23 15 What is next? Should we sin because we are not under the law, but under grace? Let it not be so! 16 Do you not know to whom you are offering yourselves as servants under obedience? You are the servants of whomever you obey: whether of sin, unto death, or of obedience, unto justice. 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be the servants of sin, now you have been obedient from the heart to the very form of the doctrine into which you have been received. 18 And having been freed from sin, we have become servants of justice. 19 I am speaking in human terms because of the infirmity of your flesh. For just as you offered the parts of your body to serve impurity and iniquity, for the sake of iniquity, so also have you now yielded the parts of your body to serve justice, for the sake of sanctification. 20 For though you were once the servants of sin, you have become the children of justice. 21 But what fruit did you hold at that time, in those things about which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 Yet truly, having been freed now from sin, and having been made servants of God, you hold your fruit in sanctification, and truly its end is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death. But the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Grace doesn't abrogate goodness, Christians are called to live righteous lives as the inevitable and necessary concomitant of the grace that saves them and the faith through which grace works their salvation by enabling them to do good works. Faith alone, without good works, saves no one.
 

Albion

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Faith alone, without good works, saves no one.

We have already covered this several times. Faith without good works saves no one BECAUSE "Faith" without works isn't Faith.
 

MennoSota

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I think I am getting this, Josiah...

So if someone says to you as they did to Paul: "You just got bit by a deadly snake and did not die, so you must be a divine person,"... Then you tell them that all you do is BELIEVE in Jesus Christ... And if they tell you: "How can I believe as you do and not be harmed by deadly snake venom?"... Your answer to them is this:

There is NOTHING YOU CAN DO...
Jesus' work on the Cross will save you...
BUT ONLY IF Jesus decides to save you...

So when the person then asks:
"How will I KNOW He has saved me?"
You will not tell him to get bit by a snake...
And if you live, you are saved...

But instead you will say:
"You will believe in Him and find yourself doing His assigned works."
And you will hand him a Bible...
And suggest he attend Church Sermons and Services...

Or perhaps you will say to him:
"BECAUSE you want to believe, you are already saved!"
"So now you can begin repenting, because the Kingdom of Heaven is here and now..."
I mean, what DO you say to someone asking:

What can I DO to be Saved by Jesus Christ?
You CANNOT say: "Start obeying Christ..." can you???
You cannot have him DO ANYTHING, can you?
You cannot even tell him to BELIEVE in Christ, can you?

Can you even tell him to read the Bible???
But no, that is a work, yes?


Arsenios
Are you now claiming that being baptized by a snake will save you? [emoji39][emoji41][emoji216]
 

MoreCoffee

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Romans 7:1-6 1 Or do you not know, brothers, (now I am speaking to those who know the law) that the law has dominion over a man only so long as he lives? 2 For example, a woman who is subject to a husband is obligated by the law while her husband lives. But when her husband has died, she is released from the law of her husband. 3 Therefore, while her husband lives, if she has been with another man, she should be called an adulteress. But when her husband has died, she is freed from the law of her husband, such that, if she has been with another man, she is not an adulteress. 4 And so, my brothers, you also have become dead to the law, through the body of Christ, so that you may be another one who has risen from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the passions of sins, which were under the law, operated within our bodies, so as to bear fruit unto death. 6 But now we have been released from the law of death, by which we were being held, so that now we may serve with a renewed spirit, and not in the old way, by the letter.

As holy scripture says "faith without works is dead" (James 2:26) because it is unproductive producing no fruit (John 15:6) and so those who have faith without good works are in danger of being cut off from Christ (John 15:2). Saint Paul warns that faith that is unproductive is harmful.

Hebrews 5:11-6:8 11 Our message about him is great, and difficult to explain when speaking, because you have been made feeble when listening. 12 For even though it is the time when you ought to be teachers, you are still lacking, so that you must be taught the things that are the basic elements of the Word of God, and so you have been made like those who are in need of milk, and not of solid food. 13 For anyone who is still feeding on milk is still unskillful in the Word of Justice; for he is like an infant. 14 But solid food is for those who are mature, for those who, by practice, have sharpened their mind, so as to discern good from evil. 1 Therefore, interrupting an explanation of the basics of Christ, let us consider what is more advanced, not presenting again the fundamentals of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptism, and also of the imposition of hands, and of the resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And we shall do this, if indeed God permits it. 4 For it is impossible for those who were once illuminated, and have even tasted of the heavenly gift, and have become sharers in the Holy Spirit, 5 who, despite having tasted the good Word of God and the virtues of the future age, have yet fallen away, 6 to be renewed again to penance, since they are crucifying again in themselves the Son of God and are still maintaining pretenses. 7 For the earth accepts a blessing from God, by drinking in the rain that often falls upon it, and by producing plants that are useful to those by whom it is cultivated. 8 But whatever brings forth thorns and briers is rejected, and is closest to what is accursed; their consummation is in combustion.
 

Arsenios

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Are you now claiming that being baptized by a snake will save you? [emoji39][emoji41][emoji216]

We are Baptized by Christ, Menno...

Scripture says so...

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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Here is a new tack:

Do we need to resist sin in order to be saved?

Or are we saved and only then do we resist sin?

Does God save unrepentant sinners?

Why or why not, from Scripture please...

Menno: Whatcha think?


Arsenios
 

MennoSota

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We are Baptized by Christ, Menno...

Scripture says so...

Arsenios
We are baptized into Christ, Arsenios. Scripture says so...
Immersed in Christ Jesus. Such a gracious gift of God to his elect children.
Romans 6:3
Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?

Colossians 2:12
having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
 

MennoSota

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God's grace saves us. Faith is the gift God gives us as a display of his grace.
No one generates their own faith so that they might save themselves.
Ephesians 2:8-9
God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God.*Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.*
 

Andrew

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We sin 7 times daily, our God is a forgiving and merciful God, what good is works without faith in God and belief in his Son?
 

MoreCoffee

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James 2:14 RSV What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?

The answer is "no".

James 2:14-17 RSV What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.

Faith doesn't save if it is faith alone. Faith alone cannot save. That is the teaching of the holy scriptures.

James 1:22-27 RSV But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. 23 For if any one is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who observes his natural face in a mirror; 24 for he observes himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like. 25 But he who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer that forgets but a doer that acts, he shall be blessed in his doing. 26 If any one thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this man's religion is vain. 27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.

Be a doer of the word and not merely a hearer of it. Without doing there's no salvation to be found in faith.

Romans 7:7-25 RSV What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet, if it had not been for the law, I should not have known sin. I should not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, "You shall not covet." 8 But sin, finding opportunity in the commandment, wrought in me all kinds of covetousness. Apart from the law sin lies dead. 9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died; 10 the very commandment which promised life proved to be death to me. 11 For sin, finding opportunity in the commandment, deceived me and by it killed me. 12 So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and just and good. 13 Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, working death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. 14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree that the law is good. 17 So then it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me. 21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inmost self, 23 but I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin which dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I of myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.
 

Lamb

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Here is a new tack:

Do we need to resist sin in order to be saved?

Or are we saved and only then do we resist sin?

Does God save unrepentant sinners?

Why or why not, from Scripture please...

Menno: Whatcha think?


Arsenios

In other words, does God save us without our help or do we have to help ourselves?
 

Josiah

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In other words, does God save us without our help or do we have to help ourselves?


Right on target....



Is Jesus the Savior... or is He merely a helper/enabler?

If He is the Savior, then He saves us and Christianity is correct and the Gospel valid.

If He is only a Enabler.... we only need a little help from a Friend.... if we essentially save ourselves (albeit with divine help) then Jesus is not the Savior, Christianity is a lie, the Gospel wrong, and every OTHER religion is correct; then we don't need any Savior we just need HELP so we can eventually save ourselves.

It's really quite simple.



Satan works overtime to make this as complicated as possible... to make Jesus as small as possible and self as big as possible... to get our eyes off the Cross and on the mirror... to deny the Gospel of Christianity. And sometimes he succeeds.





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Josiah

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MoreCoffee

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Can his faith save him?

The answer is "no".

Faith doesn't save if it is faith alone. Faith alone cannot save. That is the teaching of the holy scriptures.

Be a doer of the word and not merely a hearer of it. Without doing there's no salvation to be found in faith.

As holy scripture says "faith without works is dead" (James 2:26) because it is unproductive producing no fruit (John 15:6) and so those who have faith without good works are in danger of being cut off from Christ (John 15:2). Saint Paul warns that faith that is unproductive is harmful.

Grace doesn't abrogate goodness, Christians are called to live righteous lives as the inevitable and necessary concomitant of the grace that saves them and the faith through which grace works their salvation by enabling them to do good works. Faith alone, without good works, saves no one.
 

Albion

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Can his faith save him?

The answer is "no".

Faith doesn't save if it is faith alone. Faith alone cannot save. That is the teaching of the holy scriptures.
But since Faith is never alone, the point is just a trick with words.
 

Josiah

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But since Faith is never alone, the point is just a trick with words.




Here's the deal....
Clearing the smoke.... getting to the root of the issue...



We've all witness this.... in person and on the 'net..... A Protestant does as Luther and Calvin did, proclaim that Jesus is the Savior.... and BANG.... often Catholics (and perhaps some others) seem to come unglued.... repudiating what the Protestant says ..... going on and on and on and on and on..... in thread after thread...... for perhaps hundreds of pages..... horrified by the point that Jesus is the Savior (and thus saves). Note, it's NOT "Yes! Jesus is the Savior! You are 100% correct! Of course, you are also correct that once justified we are called and empowered to great things" because of course, everyone would just say "AMEN" - and the thread would end, the issue terminate and all would agree. Nope. That's not what happens, is it?


Christianity is founded on the truth that we are sinners and NEED SAVING (not just a little help from a Friend.... we need the SAVIOR) and that God has supplied that SAVIOR. But the enemies of Christianity must destroy that and direct us to the point of every OTHER religion, those from Man (or worse) and not God, that we ain't so bad and all we need is a little help, an Enabler, and in time we'll clean things up and get good enough. The need is to make Jesus as small and irrelevant as possible (hopefully to eliminate Him as SAVIOR at all!) and to make self as big and important as possible (essentially, the savior of self as self adequately tapped the help). The need is to get our focus off the Cross (as much as possible) and on the mirror. Another words, to destroy Christianity and uphold the soteriology of the world, of all other religions.


The creative ways they do this! Including one of the most illogical and silly of all: if two things are associated, they must have the same function, purpose and result. It's a SILLY point on the face of it, but Pelagius used it and it's still found today. James - writing to CHRISTIANS, notes that faith in Christ's works for us is joined with OUR works toward others.... okay, they are joined.... but the SILLY and ILLOGICAL (and unbiblical) point that ERGO they have the identical same function of saving us.... is just one way to diminish Jesus.


James notes that if one SAYS he has faith but doesn't have works toward others, he simply is wrong in his SAYING. James does NOT state that faith in Christ is wrong, worthless, saves no one.... he is not stating that faith in Christ does nothing. It simply means what James states, it makes the SAYING false, that one SAYING he has faith in Christ (but shows this is not true by his lack of works) is just not telling the truth - his SAYING is false NOT that faith in Jesus is false, worthless, does nothing, doesn't save.


It is just silly to argue as Pelagius did and some Catholics now do: if two things are joined, they must have the same function, purpose and result. Faith in Christ that IS faith in Christ is evidenced by our works toward others, THAT is what James is saying - and Protestants 100% agree. But it is wrong to say that faith that IS faith means nothing because Christ doesn't save, we gotta ADD our stuff, we gotta save ourselves by also supplying our own works, that it's Christ's works PLUS mine so that Jesus is (at most) PART Savior and self is PART Savior (self doing the part that actually matters). Pelagianism is wrong.... James is not guilty of that heresy. James is NOT supporting their Pelagianism and their efforts to diminish Jesus.



Satan works overtime to undermine the Gospel, diminish Christ, and destroy Christianity..... His goal is to get our eyes OFF the bloody Cross and empty Tomb, to think LESS to little to none of Jesus.... and to get us to look in the mirror.... to make self the savior of self (even if he needs to throw in some divine enabling). You gotta wonder..... why the simple point that Jesus is the Savior cause SO much debate, so much ridicule, on and on and on and on and on..... in thread after thread at times for over a hundred pages of posts?


See posts 54 and 55





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Albion

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I'm sorry to say it, but I don't understand what the disagreement is all about.
 

Josiah

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I'm sorry to say it, but I don't understand what the disagreement is all about.


The Christian Gospel. Christianity. I tried to explain in post 58. I worked a bit on the post to try to make it clearer (I hope that helps).







.
 
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