Born of water and the Spirit.

MoreCoffee

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But they have all those old books, midrash or something. Can't find it yet. All those interpretations make sense tbh.

Old yes but not ancient. A Midrash book from 600 AD is not going to do it. Post Christ Judaism was very hostile to Christ and Christianity. Even today the very Orthodox among Jews are reputed to be hostile to Christ and Christianity.
 

NewCreation435

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It's okay with me if you do not want to discuss the passage with me any more. If you think I need to agree with you to make discussion worthwhile that is okay too. It's odd but okay.

Another commentary from a Presbyterian also address the meaning of the verse quite well. It says.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Barnes Notes on the BIble

John 3:5

Be born of water - By water, here, is evidently signified baptism. Thus the word is used in Eph 5:26; Tit 3:5. Baptism was practised by the Jews in receiving a Gentile as a proselyte. It was practised by John among the Jews; and Jesus here says that it is an ordinance of his religion, and the sign and seal of the renewing influences of his Spirit. So he said Mar 16:16, He that believeth and is baptised shall be saved. It is clear from these places, and from the example of the apostles Act 2:38, Act 2:41; Act 8:12-13, Act 8:36, Act 8:38; Act 9:18; Act 10:47-48; Act 16:15, Act 16:33; Act 18:8; Act 22:16; Gal 3:27, that they considered this ordinance as binding on all who professed to love the Lord Jesus. And though it cannot be said that none who are not baptised can be saved, yet Jesus meant, undoubtedly, to be understood as affirming that this was to be the regular and uniform way of entering into his church; that it was the appropriate mode of making a profession of religion; and that a man who neglected this, when the duty was made known to him, neglected a plain command of God. It is clear, also, that any other command of God might as well be neglected or violated as this, and that it is the duty of everyone not only to love the Saviour, but to make an acknowledgement of that love by being baptised, and by devoting himself thus to his service.

But, lest Nicodemus should suppose that this was all that was meant, he added that it was necessary that he should be born of the Spirit also. This was predicted of the Saviour, that he should baptise with the Holy Ghost and with fire, Mat 3:11. By this is clearly intended that the heart must be changed by the agency of the Holy Spirit; that the love of sin must be abandoned; that man must repent of crime and turn to God; that he must renounce all his evil propensities, and give himself to a life of prayer and holiness, of meekness, purity, and benevolence. This great change is in the Scripture ascribed uniformly to the Holy Spirit, Tit 3:5; 1Th 1:6; Rom 5:5; 1Pe 1:22.

Cannot enter into - This is the way, the appropriate way, of entering into the kingdom of the Messiah here and hereafter. He cannot enter into the true church here, or into heaven in the world to come, except in connection with a change of heart, and by the proper expression of that change in the ordinances appointed by the Saviour.​

It's very nice for you to quote commentaries that agree with you. Like that proves something.
 

MoreCoffee

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It's very nice for you to quote commentaries that agree with you. Like that proves something.

It proves one thing at least. The view I posted in the first post of this thread is not unique to Anglicans. Presbyterians share it. Catholics and Orthodox have a similar view. In fact the Christians holding to the kind of interpretation presented by Albert Barnes is the majority Christian view. This is not a battle between the bible and tradition as some like to characterise it. It is a dispute between Christians about how various passages are to be interpreted. Baptist leaning groups - a minority in Christianity - take various views on each passage. The view that presents amniotic fluid as the water in the phrase "water and the Spirit" is, as far as I can tell, rather recent and not in accord with past views held by Baptists and those with Baptist like views. In the older Baptist commentaries (John Gill is an example) the "water" is taken to be figurative and no mention of amniotic fluid is made. John Gill writes

except a man be born of water and of the Spirit: these are, מלות שנות, "two words", which express the same thing, as Kimchi observes in many places in his commentaries, and signify the grace of the Spirit of God. The Vulgate Latin and Ethiopic versions read, "the Holy Spirit", and so Nonnus; and who doubtless is intended: by "water", is not meant material water, or baptismal water; for water baptism is never expressed by water only, without some additional word, which shows, that the ordinance of water baptism is intended: nor has baptism any regenerating influence in it; a person may be baptised, as Simon Magus was, and yet not born again; and it is so far from having any such virtue, that a person ought to be born again, before he is admitted to that ordinance: and though submission to it is necessary, in order to a person's entrance into a Gospel church state; yet it is not necessary to the kingdom of heaven, or to eternal life and salvation: such a mistaken sense of this text, seems to have given the first birth and rise to infant baptism in the African churches; who taking the words in this bad sense, concluded their children must be baptised, or they could not be saved; whereas by "water" is meant, in a figurative and metaphorical sense, the grace of God, as it is elsewhere; see Eze 36:25. Which is the moving cause of this new birth, and according to which God begets men again to, a lively hope, and that by which it is effected; for it is by the grace of God, and not by the power of man's free will, that any are regenerated, or made new creatures: and if Nicodemus was an officer in the temple, that took care to provide water at the feasts, as Dr. Lightfoot thinks, and as it should seem Nicodemon ben Gorion was, by the story before related of him; See Gill on Joh 3:1; very pertinently does our Lord make mention of water, it being his own element: regeneration is sometimes ascribed to God the Father, as in 1Pe 1:3, and sometimes to the Son, 1Jn 2:29 and here to the Spirit, as in Tit 3:5, who convinces of sin, sanctifies, renews, works faith, and every other grace; begins and carries on the work of grace, unto perfection;

Perhaps his view is acceptable to you?
 

Imalive

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Do you read Hebrew? The link is to a document in Hebrew.

It was a joke. I give up. I can't find it. I found other funny idioms though.
 

Imalive

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Old yes but not ancient. A Midrash book from 600 AD is not going to do it. Post Christ Judaism was very hostile to Christ and Christianity. Even today the very Orthodox among Jews are reputed to be hostile to Christ and Christianity.

Oh I thought it was older. I don't care if they're hostile, as long as they know their idioms and expressions.
If someone came out of a mikvah they'd cry: born again.
 

MoreCoffee

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Oh I thought it was older. I don't care if they're hostile, as long as they know their idioms and expressions.
If someone came out of a mikvah they'd cry: born again.

Well, Nicodemus was 30 AD not 600 AD. It's evident that Nicodemus didn't know any idiom that made "water and the Spirit" comprehensible to him. That's why he was critiqued by Jesus as an ignorant "teacher of Israel".
 

Imalive

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Well, Nicodemus was 30 AD not 600 AD. It's evident that Nicodemus didn't know any idiom that made "water and the Spirit" comprehensible to him. That's why he was critiqued by Jesus as an ignorant "teacher of Israel".

No I meant born from water, if they always used that for natural birth.
 

Imalive

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Isaiah 4:4:
…when the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and cleansed the bloodstains of Jerusalem from its midst by a spirit of judgment and by a spirit of burning.

https://bnonn.com/what-is-being-born-of-water-in-john-35/
He says water is also the Holy Spirit. This makes the most sense to me actually, because if a kid dies in the whomb and isnt born he goes to heaven too.

Oh and he says: Jesus spoke to Nicodemus before the outpouring of the Spirit. Repent, get baptized and receive the Holy Spirit was in Acts.
 

MoreCoffee

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No I meant born from water, if they always used that for natural birth.

I do not think it is. "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God" does not seem to be about "natural birth". It's about being born from above and that is supernatural is it not?
 

MoreCoffee

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Isaiah 4:4:
…when the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and cleansed the bloodstains of Jerusalem from its midst by a spirit of judgment and by a spirit of burning.

https://bnonn.com/what-is-being-born-of-water-in-john-35/
He says water is also the Holy Spirit. This makes the most sense to me actually, because if a kid dies in the whomb and isnt born he goes to heaven too.

Oh and he says: Jesus spoke to Nicodemus before the outpouring of the Spirit. Repent, get baptized and receive the Holy Spirit was in Acts.

Didn't the Holy Spirit come upon Jesus when he was baptised?
 

NewCreation435

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It proves one thing at least. The view I posted in the first post of this thread is not unique to Anglicans. Presbyterians share it. Catholics and Orthodox have a similar view. In fact the Christians holding to the kind of interpretation presented by Albert Barnes is the majority Christian view. This is not a battle between the bible and tradition as some like to characterise it. It is a dispute between Christians about how various passages are to be interpreted. Baptist leaning groups - a minority in Christianity - take various views on each passage. The view that presents amniotic fluid as the water in the phrase "water and the Spirit" is, as far as I can tell, rather recent and not in accord with past views held by Baptists and those with Baptist like views. In the older Baptist commentaries (John Gill is an example) the "water" is taken to be figurative and no mention of amniotic fluid is made. John Gill writes

except a man be born of water and of the Spirit: these are, מלות שנות, "two words", which express the same thing, as Kimchi observes in many places in his commentaries, and signify the grace of the Spirit of God. The Vulgate Latin and Ethiopic versions read, "the Holy Spirit", and so Nonnus; and who doubtless is intended: by "water", is not meant material water, or baptismal water; for water baptism is never expressed by water only, without some additional word, which shows, that the ordinance of water baptism is intended: nor has baptism any regenerating influence in it; a person may be baptised, as Simon Magus was, and yet not born again; and it is so far from having any such virtue, that a person ought to be born again, before he is admitted to that ordinance: and though submission to it is necessary, in order to a person's entrance into a Gospel church state; yet it is not necessary to the kingdom of heaven, or to eternal life and salvation: such a mistaken sense of this text, seems to have given the first birth and rise to infant baptism in the African churches; who taking the words in this bad sense, concluded their children must be baptised, or they could not be saved; whereas by "water" is meant, in a figurative and metaphorical sense, the grace of God, as it is elsewhere; see Eze 36:25. Which is the moving cause of this new birth, and according to which God begets men again to, a lively hope, and that by which it is effected; for it is by the grace of God, and not by the power of man's free will, that any are regenerated, or made new creatures: and if Nicodemus was an officer in the temple, that took care to provide water at the feasts, as Dr. Lightfoot thinks, and as it should seem Nicodemon ben Gorion was, by the story before related of him; See Gill on Joh 3:1; very pertinently does our Lord make mention of water, it being his own element: regeneration is sometimes ascribed to God the Father, as in 1Pe 1:3, and sometimes to the Son, 1Jn 2:29 and here to the Spirit, as in Tit 3:5, who convinces of sin, sanctifies, renews, works faith, and every other grace; begins and carries on the work of grace, unto perfection;

Perhaps his view is acceptable to you?

YOu must have a lot more time than me. I don't have time to research this right now. But, you just proving my point that there are commentaries out there that don't take your point of view. Which I found is true about almost everything. When I was studying the book of Colossians I found that there were over 60 opinions over what the controversy was that Paul was writing to the colossae church about. It seems you can find a commentary to say just about anything if you look hard enough
 

MoreCoffee

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YOu must have a lot more time than me. I don't have time to research this right now. But, you just proving my point that there are commentaries out there that don't take your point of view. Which I found is true about almost everything. When I was studying the book of Colossians I found that there were over 60 opinions over what the controversy was that Paul was writing to the colossae church about. It seems you can find a commentary to say just about anything if you look hard enough

Of course there are commentaries that take a baptist view they are written by baptists.
 

Imalive

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I do not think it is. "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God" does not seem to be about "natural birth". It's about being born from above and that is supernatural is it not?

Yes.

I thought it can't be the Holy Spirit but he says this:

Consider Matthew 3:11 and Luke 3:16, where John the Baptist says that Jesus will baptize “with the Holy Spirit and fire”.
Does anyone think this was literal fire? Perhaps you see a reference to Pentecost here, but I can concede that (implausible as it seems given John’s audience) without losing anything—because the fire at Pentecost was the Holy Spirit. So John the Baptist’s language is certainly a synonymous parallelism: he is saying that Jesus will baptize with the Holy Spirit and…the Holy Spirit.
 

MoreCoffee

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Yes.

I thought it can't be the Holy Spirit but he says this:

Consider Matthew 3:11 and Luke 3:16, where John the Baptist says that Jesus will baptize “with the Holy Spirit and fire”.
Does anyone think this was literal fire? Perhaps you see a reference to Pentecost here, but I can concede that (implausible as it seems given John’s audience) without losing anything—because the fire at Pentecost was the Holy Spirit. So John the Baptist’s language is certainly a synonymous parallelism: he is saying that Jesus will baptize with the Holy Spirit and…the Holy Spirit.

The tongues of fire appeared to be 'literal fire' didn't they?
 

Imalive

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The tongues of fire appeared to be 'literal fire' didn't they?

literal? yes but spiritual, not natural. With the Azusastreet ppl called the fire brigade cause they thought the building was literally on fire.
 

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literal? yes but spiritual, not natural. With the Azusastreet ppl called the fire brigade cause they thought the building was literally on fire.

Supernatural (spiritual too) does not mean that it is not natural fire. But let's assume for the sake of discussion that the flames were not "literal fire". Where's any baptism that was fire & spirit?
 

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Supernatural (spiritual too) does not mean that it is not natural fire. But let's assume for the same of discussion that the flames were not "literal fire". Where's any baptism that was fire & spirit?

Acts 2
wind too

When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord[a] in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
 
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