Body of Messiah - to be spiced twice?

[Stravinsk]

According to the Gospel according to Luke, the women (Mary Magdelene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James and the "others with them" Luke 24:10)
...had prepared spices on Preparation Day (the day before the Sabbath), and also according to Luke - took those spices to the tomb on Resurrection morning (Luke 24:1) to use them on Messiah's body.

This poses a major problem with the Gospel of John, because according to John's Gospel, this is the scenario:

Joseph and Nicodemus take Messiah's body away and very importantly, THEY wrapped the body with the spices that Nicodemus bought - a whopping 100 pounds worth of myrrh and aloes ( John 19: 39-40), on the Preparation Day.

Where is the problem then? The women, according to Luke, would NOT BE UNAWARE OF THIS - as they have followed Joseph with the body to the point where it was laid (Luke 23:55)

Why the heck then are the women preparing spices on Preparation day to use on Messiah's body when they had just witnessed Joseph and Nicodemus use a whopping 100 pounds of myrrh and aloes on Messiah's body?

Side note: Mark's Gospel has them BUYING spices after the Sabbath (when was this exactly? They went to the tomb early morning, and Sabbath law prevents buying and selling on it - were there spice vendors selling spices for them to prepare early Resurrection morning?)

Side note 2: Matthew's Gospel simply omits any mention of spices.

Matthew and John's Gospels agree and are complimentary. Luke and Mark (not disciples of Yeshua) are the odd men out.

Your explanation?

 

[Lamb]

I'm not sure what you're getting at?

 

[Stravinsk]

I'm not sure what you're getting at?

Main issue to address within the context I've referenced is:

Why the heck then are the women preparing spices on Preparation day to use on Messiah's body when they had just witnessed Joseph and Nicodemus use a whopping 100 pounds of myrrh and aloes on Messiah's body?

 

[Lamb]

I thought that because of how late it was, that Jesus couldn't have been given a "proper" burial until after the Sabbath, so the men used the spices to help ward off the stench of the decay of death. The women went to the tomb afterward to give him a proper burial and yes, that included spices. I don't see a contradiction.

 

[Stravinsk]

I thought that because of how late it was, that Jesus couldn't have been given a "proper" burial until after the Sabbath, so the men used the spices to help ward off the stench of the decay of death. The women went to the tomb afterward to give him a proper burial and yes, that included spices. I don't see a contradiction.

What the men did, according to John, was according to Jewish Burial customs, so it was proper. There was no need for the women to prepare additional spices.

 

[Lamb]

How many women do you know that trust that men do something right the first time?

 

[Lamb]

The proper burial for Jews wasn't just to put spices on. What the men did was to prepare the body until it could be attended to after the Sabbath. That's why the women returned, the body needed to be washed, oiled and have spices placed on before it was wrapped.

 

[Stravinsk]

How many women do you know that trust that men do something right the first time?

Gender jokes aside, this is a serious issue regarding integrity of the Gospels. Nicodemus is a Pharisee and Joseph of Arimathea is a follower of Messiah. If the Gospel of John is to be believed, they knew exactly what they were doing - which makes it completely unnecessary for the women (according to Luke) to prepare spices or for them to (according to Mark) buy them some time after the Sabbath. This is especially so because again according to Luke, they witnessed it all, up to the point where Messiah is laid in the tomb.

I've made it clear already I don't trust Luke or Mark - they are not among the handpicked by Yeshua. I offer this as just another reason (among many) I do not believe they are trustworthy. Their stories contradict either Matthew or John or both.

 

[Lamb]

Have you looked into the history of Jewish burials in ancient days? I have some links for you:

http://worshippingchristian.org/burial_of_jesus.html

The deceased person was cleaned with water and wrapped in a burial shroud usually made of linen. As the body was wrapped, it was not uncommon to anoint it with aromatic herbs and spices. In Biblical times, given the climate of the Holy Land, bodily decay would begin quite rapidly. By using the aromatic materials, the smell associated with decay could be covered for a short time. Next the body was laid in a tomb or shelf to begin the yearlong wait until the bones could be re-interned in an ossuary. It was customary for relatives to visit the body for several days after the death. Often they would add more herbs and spices to the body when they visited to mask the increasingly apparent odor.

http://www.bible-archaeology.info/tombs.htm

It was the women’s task to prepare a dead body for burial. The body was washed, and hair and nails were cut. Then it was gently wiped with a mixture of spices and wrapped in linen strips of various sizes and widths. While this was happening, prayers from the Scriptures were chanted.

The body was wrapped in a shroud, but was otherwise uncovered.

Tombs were visited and watched for three days by family members and friends. On the third day after death, the body was examined. This was to make sure that the person was really dead, for accidental burial of someone still alive could happen.

At this stage the body would be treated by the women of the family with oils and perfumes. The women's visits to the tombs of Jesus and Lazarus are connected with this ritual.

 

[visionary]

Nicodemus and Joseph are very wealthy men, who could easily have sent their servants to gather up the spices and such while they were securing the rights to the body. They could easily have trained men to do the task before sunset.

 

[Full O Beans]

Gender jokes aside, this is a serious issue regarding integrity of the Gospels. Nicodemus is a Pharisee and Joseph of Arimathea is a follower of Messiah. If the Gospel of John is to be believed, they knew exactly what they were doing - which makes it completely unnecessary for the women (according to Luke) to prepare spices or for them to (according to Mark) buy them some time after the Sabbath. This is especially so because again according to Luke, they witnessed it all, up to the point where Messiah is laid in the tomb.

I've made it clear already I don't trust Luke or Mark - they are not among the handpicked by Yeshua. I offer this as just another reason (among many) I do not believe they are trustworthy. Their stories contradict either Matthew or John or both.

It would take just a little honest study and some true understanding to be able to see there is no contradiction, but when one has a problem with trust and faith, then this inability to see the congruence of scripture becomes a problem. It is a choice.

Mark and Luke are completely consistent, both have great spiritual integrity, and both men were strong disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus had hundreds of disciples while He walked the Earth.

Scripture doesn't say when the women bought the spices. What with the smaller amount they had, their purpose wasn't to perform the Jewish burial rite, but to simply anoint the body of Jesus out of love and honour.


.

 

[Stravinsk]

Have you looked into the history of Jewish burials in ancient days? I have some links for you:

http://worshippingchristian.org/burial_of_jesus.html



http://www.bible-archaeology.info/tombs.htm

Thanks for the links. Those might seem like reasonable arguments, but time is a factor in this. The shortness of it, that is. And quantity of spices. According to John, 100 pounds of aloes and myrrh were used right before Sabbath on Messiah prior to being laid in the tomb. According to Luke, the women witness this.

Luke has the women preparing spices the same evening, resting on Sabbath, then going early to the tomb on Resurrection day, which is the day following, with more spices.

I'm not sure why the "climate of the holy land" in the quoted text lends itself to super rapid decay that 100 pounds of aloes and myrrh can not stave off for such a short time.

 

[Stravinsk]

It would take just a little honest study and some true understanding to be able to see there is no contradiction, but when one has a problem with trust and faith, then this inability to see the congruence of scripture becomes a problem. It is a choice.

Mark and Luke are completely consistent, both have great spiritual integrity, and both men were strong disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus had hundreds of disciples while He walked the Earth.

Scripture doesn't say when the women bought the spices. What with the smaller amount they had, their purpose wasn't to perform the Jewish burial rite, but to simply anoint the body of Jesus out of love and honour.


.

According to Mark the women buy spices after Sabbath. That means they found a spice vendor open in the wee hours of the morning to buy spices from, then hurry and prepare them, then rush to the tomb.

As for the text I've made bold above : "Mark and Luke are completely consistent, both have great spiritual integrity, and both men were strong disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus had hundreds of disciples while He walked the Earth. "

In case you forgot, Jesus chose 12 disciples to be His witnesses. Mark and Luke are not among the named 12.

 

[Full O Beans]

According to Mark the women buy spices after Sabbath. That means they found a spice vendor open in the wee hours of the morning to buy spices from, then hurry and prepare them, then rush to the tomb.

As for the text I've made bold above : "Mark and Luke are completely consistent, both have great spiritual integrity, and both men were strong disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus had hundreds of disciples while He walked the Earth. "

In case you forgot, Jesus chose 12 disciples to be His witnesses. Mark and Luke are not among the named 12.

There is nothing in scripture that tells us when the women actually bought the spices. As for Mark and Luke, they were disciples, despite not being part of the inner circle of twelve. There were hundreds of disciples. Hey, I am a disciple of Jesus.

 

[Stravinsk]

There is nothing in scripture that tells us when the women actually bought the spices.

According to Mark, they bought spices after the Sabbath: Mark 16:1 . According to Luke, they prepared spices before the Sabbath Luke 23:55-56. According to John, they witnessed Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimethea putting Messiah's body with 100 pounds of aloes and myrrh on it in the tomb.

Sorry you're confused. That's what contradictions do - they confuse, if they are all believed at the same time. You have to pick what you believe, otherwise.

As for Mark and Luke, they were disciples, despite not being part of the inner circle of twelve. There were hundreds of disciples. Hey, I am a disciple of Jesus.

So if you wrote a gospel, or a bunch of letters to churches claiming to have teachings of Jesus, we should all just take your word for it and believe it, right? Perhaps on pain of being accused of having an evil spirit because some people didn't accept it?

The argument that you are making diminishes to nothing the role of the 12 disciples. If there were hundreds, and many around today - the whole point of Yeshua picking 12 as witnesses to his life and teachings is sort of meaningless.

 

[Full O Beans]

That is only talking about 3 women, but there were a bunch of women who had anointing ingredients and headed out to the garden tomb. If you set your mind and heart to be confused, you will be, but don't try to spread it around. It doesn't work with people who know the word.

Why do you say such foolish things about disciples of Jesus? He had hundreds---now, umpteen millions! He chose only twelve as His inner circle.

 

[Lamb]

Strav, you have written a couple of times that you think 100 pounds of spices is a great amount but from what I've read, it's actually not too much for an important person.

 

[Stravinsk]

Strav, you have written a couple of times that you think 100 pounds of spices is a great amount but from what I've read, it's actually not too much for an important person.

I'm 6'2, about 102 kilo (224.4 pound). Now if I was to be covered in aloes and spices, I can imagine that 10 pounds would be more than enough to cover me head to toe, with a few layers at that.

Yes, I think 100 pounds is a lot for one person. Much more than needed to stave off any decaying stench. If I remember right (can't be bothered to look it up), it says somewhere in the OT that Messiah's body would not see decay. If by supernatural or natural, it's not hard to see why for the latter

 

[Full O Beans]

Strav, you have written a couple of times that you think 100 pounds of spices is a great amount but from what I've read, it's actually not too much for an important person.

Actually, 100 pounds would be enough to bury almost 100 people, according to Jewish rite.

 

[Lamb]

I'm 6'2, about 102 kilo (224.4 pound). Now if I was to be covered in aloes and spices, I can imagine that 10 pounds would be more than enough to cover me head to toe, with a few layers at that.

Yes, I think 100 pounds is a lot for one person. Much more than needed to stave off any decaying stench. If I remember right (can't be bothered to look it up), it says somewhere in the OT that Messiah's body would not see decay. If by supernatural or natural, it's not hard to see why for the latter

They believed He was important, but the question is, did they believe He would be resurrected?