Are NDEs evidence of the soul?

[Lamb]

Among conservative Christians who think critically about these matters are Gary Habermas and J.P. Moreland, both of whom have written on the subject. In discussions with them, they seem to agree that while NDEs have debatable significance in giving us a glimpse of heaven, and little to no value in proving the Christian faith, they do have significant value in discrediting naturalism (the belief that there is no transcendence to nature) and scientism (the belief that science can explain all things). Why? Because, at the very least, NDEs give evidence that there is a conscious part of individuals that transcends the body and brain. NDEs give evidence of the soul.

http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2015/01/trust-peoples-near-death-experiences/#more-16480

I found the article very interesting especially in light of some of our conversations here on this site so I'm hoping Mark chimes in on this.

I personally don't think that Near Death Experiences (or NDE) are proof of anything. I distrust people who make claims that they died and went to heaven. The little boy who recently retracted his statement, you know the one, the family who wrote a book and made money off it? People lie all the time. Why should I believe them?

 

[MarkFL]

I think NDEs are evidence of oxygen deprivation.

 

[Josiah]

I think NDEs are evidence of oxygen deprivation.

I'm not sure I disagree.....

EXPERIENCE is always a very difficult thing to CONFIRM or DENY. Little girls have a chat with Our Lady? An angel appears to a teen boy in New York? God tells some Pentecostal preacher something? I can't say that's wrong.... I can't say that's right.

I believe in heaven, so I'm OPEN to all this (although I wonder.... where are the "I saw flames" visions, lol?) But I'm hesitant to just say "that's right!"

And that boy.... you know, the book and the movie recently.... didn't he fess up that he made up the whole thing? Maybe I heard wrong.

On a scale of 1-10, put me down as a 5.



- Josiah

 

[psalms 91]

As with all things, you must test but lets face ti there is evidence for heaven (real not fake) not all visions are fake, there was also a scientific study many years ago where they weighed people right before death and again right after death and there was a certain weight difference that many attributed to the soul, proof no, but interesting

 

[Brighten04]

I believe in NDE's.I believe our spirit can leave the body and travel. The Bible speaks of this. I trust what the Bible says about our composition. We are spirit, soul, and body. It is our spirit man that God saves. The Holy Spirit comes alongside of our spirit man and dwells within us there. Our soul is where our mind, will, and emotions dwell. This is the part of us that is the decider. This part of us is the rope between the body and the spirit. Have you ever played tug of war as a child? The body is that part of us that houses our senses,, sight,hearing,touch etc. This part feels pleasure and pain, and is where sin corrupts and is enmity with our Father. Apostle Paul had a NDE. At least. scholars say that it was a NDE.
2Cor. 12:1It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. [SUP]2 [/SUP]I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; )
[SUP]4 [/SUP]How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

I don't know why my font size changed. I don't know what to do about that. But, in the case of the child that recanted. I think he just got tired of all the interviews that he was required to do. I think his story is true, but people would not leave him alone about it so he recanted. I know that feeling. People can get on your last nerve. And he is a child. His parents should be ashamed for exploiting the child's experience. Apostle Paul said it was unlawful to speak what he heard.

 

[MarkFL]

...there was also a scientific study many years ago where they weighed people right before death and again right after death and there was a certain weight difference that many attributed to the soul, proof no, but interesting

Bill, that study was debunked.

 

[psalms 91]

Bill, that study was debunked.

To bad, I would be interested if it was triied again as the fact that there was a weight difference I dont think was ever in question

 

[MarkFL]

To bad, I would be interested if it was triied again as the fact that there was a weight difference I dont think was ever in question

I believe the method used to weigh the bodies was said to be inaccurate (and the sample size was far too small to draw any conclusions), but it's been a while since I read the article on it.

I would also like to see a more rigorous test done. :thumbsup:

 

[visionary]

Many confuse "spirit" with "soul". In the beginning when God made made it took a combination of breath [spirit] and dirt to create a living soul. There are no dead souls. When you separate the spirit from body, you have one dead body, no soul, and the spirit returns to God.

I think that the NDE's are just body shutdown, memory, preception, hopes, understanding, and final thoughts. The explanation of the views from above the body which include conversations and visuals can be explained by the spirit observations as the final records.

 

[Lamb]

(and the sample size was far too small to draw any conclusions),

How much would a soul weigh anyway? :rofl3:

 

[MarkFL]

How much would a soul weigh anyway? :rofl3:

Take the total energy of a soul, multiply it times the gravitational acceleration and then divide that product by the square of the speed of light.

 

[visionary]

Take the total energy of a soul, multiply it times the gravitational acceleration and then divide that product by the square of the speed of light.

:nonono::run-away-crying::tantrum::confused2::big-eyes::work::lonely::confused2::flute-angel:

 

[Albion]

Some of the NDEs, particularly those that tell of significant travels in heaven or hell, like that little boy's tale that was recanted later on, aren't especially interesting to me; but there are those which tell of some out-of-body experiences (that don't involve an explicit religious message) and appear to be impossible to explain away. So what are we to make of them?






.

 

[NewCreation435]

Evidence like NDE's really don't strengthen my faith. They are interesting stories, but that's about it. My faith is in Jesus and what His word says in me not someone else's experience

 

[Albion]

I understand, but they may represent evidence of life after death. Having that reassurance does matter to some people.

 

[NewCreation435]

I understand, but they may represent evidence of life after death. Having that reassurance does matter to some people.

Well, from what I have heard there is more evidence in NDE of hell than heaven. I knew a man years ago that died and went to hell. It scared him so bad that when he was revived he became a changed person, started going to church. When I knew him many years after the fact he told me about it. He had colon cancer and when his children didn't pick him up for church he walked the two blocks himself one time.
One of my uncles is also an example of that. He was a mean man when I was a boy. I was afraid of him. His pancreas shut down and his major organs started to shut down. God got a hold of him and now he is in church every time the doors are open. He is completely and totally different person from when I was a boy.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

I'd have to look at some research again, but from what I recall NDE's were mostly neurological experiences/episodes. Some may have interpreted these as "evidence" of afterlife, but not really understood some of the biochemical 'mechanics' behind it. But, again, I'd have to look at the research.

 

[Stravinsk]

Among conservative Christians who think critically about these matters are Gary Habermas and J.P. Moreland, both of whom have written on the subject. In discussions with them, they seem to agree that while NDEs have debatable significance in giving us a glimpse of heaven, and little to no value in proving the Christian faith, they do have significant value in discrediting naturalism (the belief that there is no transcendence to nature) and scientism (the belief that science can explain all things). Why? Because, at the very least, NDEs give evidence that there is a conscious part of individuals that transcends the body and brain. NDEs give evidence of the soul.

Only the weakest kind of evidence is given (the anecdote) and 0 evidence that I am aware of that shows consciousness apart from the body and brain.

Despite many people believing they immediately go to heaven or hell (quoting Luke's version of the crucifixion "today you will be with me in paradise") the Hebrew scriptures and even Jesus Himself elsewhere affirm that people die and have no consciousness (that means no ghosts, folks) until they are raised (everyone is) on "the last day" to be judged.

I personally don't think that Near Death Experiences (or NDE) are proof of anything. I distrust people who make claims that they died and went to heaven. The little boy who recently retracted his statement, you know the one, the family who wrote a book and made money off it? People lie all the time. Why should I believe them?

Agreed.

 

[Albion]

Well, from what I have heard there is more evidence in NDE of hell than heaven. I knew a man years ago that died and went to hell. It scared him so bad that when he was revived he became a changed person, started going to church. When I knew him many years after the fact he told me about it. He had colon cancer and when his children didn't pick him up for church he walked the two blocks himself one time.
One of my uncles is also an example of that. He was a mean man when I was a boy. I was afraid of him. His pancreas shut down and his major organs started to shut down. God got a hold of him and now he is in church every time the doors are open. He is completely and totally different person from when I was a boy.

My offhand thinking is that more are about heaven than hell, but I am even more confident that most do not involve either one.

Mainly, these NDEs deal with Earthly matters, and some are very mundane, but they deal with information that the near-dead person (or whatever is the best term there) could not have known otherwise. They seem inexplicable.

 

[Albion]

I'd have to look at some research again, but from what I recall NDE's were mostly neurological experiences/episodes. Some may have interpreted these as "evidence" of afterlife, but not really understood some of the biochemical 'mechanics' behind it. But, again, I'd have to look at the research.

If that could be the explanation, I would immediately set them aside--and, to be sure, these appear to be in the category of impressions that could have been dreamed, caused by unusual brain activity, or something else like that. However, there are people who report facts that can be verified and are not generalized or known in advance by the person. Several that are often referred to are about people who travelled through the hospital while 'dead' seeing and hearing things that were verified but which the person had no way of knowing. That's not just a neurological episode.